![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Poster: A snowHead
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Skis on the 2012-13 World Cup tour will be longer than we have seen in a decade after FIS officials determined from studies many injuries are occurring because of shorter lengths and the tendency of the ski to “hook-up” and propel skiers off course.
In a letter from the FIS to national teams injury studies begun through the “FIS Injury Surveillance System” established in 2005, indicated injuries could be reduced. Last summer the development of prototype skis - through cooperation with ski manufacturers - allowed the definition of radius, length, standing height and ski plate dimensions for increased safety.
Among the results are a set of ski length guidelines that could radically impact race technique and individual style. The biggest change, of 10 centimeters or 3.9 inches, will lengthen the minimum for men's giant slalom skis to 1.95 meters. The minimum for women's GS skis will increase eight centimeters to 1.88 meters. Men will be racing downhill events on 218's and women on 215's, contrasted to 215 for men and 210 for women last season and this. Super G skis for both men and women will lengthen 5cm each. Slalom ski lengths will remain unchanged.
Changes in radii are also being implemented with the men's GS ski again getting the biggest overhaul, with minimums jumping from 27cm to 40.
These rule changes happened quickly after FIS officials met with manufacturers and were told changes to manufacturing molds would need to begin immediately in order to meet change deadlines. The implementing of the changes was to be discussed at upcoming FIS meetings, but the proposal was given to the FIS Council for an email vote with two days notice.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ph, If you are going to cut and paste from elsewhere it is polite to credit the source.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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27 to 40... GS courses are going to have to change too then.
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spud, The skis were being used by the WC forerunners last season on the same courses as the racers using >27m skis, I don't think the courses will change much.
There is more detail in the links posted by jjc james yesterday that suggests that most people will use 188cm >35m skis for GS, at least for the first year. I would like to see this continue for mixed (male & female on the same course) races as you currently end up with two different rut lines.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks for that RJS...
As with many sports, technology has got to a point where it has progressed beyond the endurance of the human body. Finding something that will work but can be endured over long periods without doing extra damage to joints and muscles is the key it seems.
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spud, This is taken from the GBR FIS delegates report in June of this year, at Portoroz, it is something I think that really needs to be looked at very seriously.i cannot stress how important good basic core strength is .Last season at my sons school (Schihotelfachschule Bad Hofgastein)of a class of 23 athletes all under 16, 9 sustained season ending injuries, one even broke his back in two places, and these are fit lads who follow the schools very tough fitness program.
4.2 – Athletes prefer icy to man-made snow; however icy leads to concussion injury. 4.3 – Early findings of a 5 year study in AUT (Stams) re:14 year old athletes in all disciplines I(with X-Ray and MRI scans) demonstrated that 50% have low back problems (degeneration of the facet joints in the spine). Agreed not enough physical training, and training is too high intensity. Material has changed over last 20 years and is much more aggressive; hence not possible or safe for same intensity of training. Exact/perfect turns created by very high pressure. Requires reduction in speed (changed course setting etc) and muscular development to improve stability and core strength to reduce injuries.
I look at this new recommendation from FIS and can only think
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kooky, Not good that young athletes are suffering those type of injuries at that age. It seems a high price to pay when they are not yet top flight & I guess only a small number will go on to make racing a career.
IIRC Tennis introduced a minimum age limit for 'Pro' competition for Lady youngsters, but I guess a similar rule won't stop people training. However a couple of years ago I was at a presentation analysing UK Ski athlete performance by age and one of the conclusions was that UK Alpine athletes are retiring too early. The trend is\was that Male skiers are winning a lot older - which makes sense given the physical demands on racers.
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kooky wrote: |
I look at this new recommendation from FIS and can only think ![rolling eyes](images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif) |
What would you suggest instead of these changes ?
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I wouldn't say this change is so stupid (except when it comes to issues from my FB rant yesterday, right Kooky ). There is more injuries nowadays then there were years ago, when "carving" skis were not invented yet. There's also more injuries with GS, then there is with SG or DH (where skis have much less radical sidecuts). Sure most know injures are with DH, but when you look at number of injures, there's nothing much to compare and GS wins by far. Even from personal experience, I would say you have a whole lot less chances to get injured with r>40 skis then with r>27 skis. Sure I don't have enough info, but if I just remember those things I saw in last few years on WC, with all tests FIS did, I would say they didn't make this decision based on some speculations or manufacturer's pressure, but based on real data.
I have no idea if this will help to reduce number of injures or not, so we will all have to wait for few years to see results, but I do hope it will.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Is that a percentage comparison in injuries from SG and DH compared with GS, or a total number?
I only ask, as i presume there are far more people who ski GS than DH and SG. Hense i would also presume there would be more injuries because of the numbers involved.
When you look at older footage of racing on longer ski's there is far more skiding rather than carving. Now there is a lot more actual carving.
I believe it is the pressure build up in the carve that is causing the injuries. Skiding a little relieves that pressure build up. The compression on joints and ligaments seems to be the problem. Interesting to note in a post further up, that kids are getting joint problems in the lower back... Down to intense compression?
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There's not all that much difference between SG/DH and GS... at least when it comes to WC. From this what I managed to read, I would say this percentage is from GS vs. SG/DH, and it goes mainly for WC, not for all categories.
And yes, I agree about carving vs. skidding. I also believe that's what they are actually trying to achieve with 40m radius skis... more skidding, and less extreme carving where forces to body and bones (especially knees) are getting extreme high.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) You know it makes sense.
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Being a parent of a ski racer feels like standing in a wind tunnel peeling off five pound notes (or is it fifties?). So far I have managed to reduce the cost of new skis by carefully looking for end of season/mid seasonon bargains. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this change it looks like next season's costs have just risen!
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Poster: A snowHead
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Spud,
Very interesting perspective from the manufacturers. The fact that they do not believe they have the capacity to make all the skis needed - let alone the cost aspects i mentioned above - is pretty telling. They make the reasonable proposal (amongst others) to phase the introduction at lower levels (i.e. below WC/EC..). I hope someone is listening.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This might sound reasonable, g444eneva, but in my mind it's not. First of all, skiing in lower categories is lower on all levels... from technique to physical preparation and on the end also course preparation is worse. This means number of injuries is bigger on lower level races then on WC. Of course public doesn't hear anything about this, since lets be honest, noone gives a sh***t about some EC or even lower level racing. But number (or better to say percentage, since pure number is not right thing to consider when you have 150 racers on one side (WC) and 50.000 on other (everything else)) is a whole lot bigger on lower level then on WC. So to do these things right way, I would actually start with lower level racing, but this is not possible, since also ski companies don't give a sh***t about low(re) level racing, and they surely won't produce skis for EC and lower lever racers, while keeping their WC guys on different skis.
And another thing... Last Saturday morning I had coffee with one of Finnish men team coaches and we were discussing this thing a bit too. We will see how things will really be, but based on this what I heard, things might actually start to be more dangerous and not less dangerous, as I though on first place. Most likely technique won't change to more skidding and less carving, but it will stay same, which means course setting will change. Anyone who ever went down Gran Risa or Face de Bellevarde on WC race day can imagine what will mean setting course on such tracks on 25m instead of current 16-18m or even less. So obviously I was wrong telling that this change might actually be change into more secure skiing with less injuries... Well let's wait for next season and see where it all goes...
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Surely the FIS should be listening to what the actual Racers want? They make the decision to race and know of the risks.
If there were major problems the Racers would surely be complaining and asking for change?
Who asked for the research to be carried out? The FIS, the Racers, Coaches?
It all seems a little strange to me and not that well thought out.
Surely the FIS should have approached the manufacturers and told them of their findings, and asked as to whether their research could provide some answers... Rather than just saying 'we will increase the Length of the Skis'.
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This is something I definitely don't agree with you. Races are complaining now, that they want to keep old regulations, but when things go wrong, they are accusing FIS they didn't do anything. Same guys who are so much about safety regulations, are later on so loud that nothing has been done to protect them. So no, if you like it or not, and no matter how this sounds, but racers are not right people to ask for opinion about safety regulations. I don't know if you are in skiing long enough to remember this, but I do. When helmets came out few years ago (for GS and SL), there were few who wore them, and quite few who didn't. Few years later, FIS made rule, that helmets in SL and GS are obligatory, and I wouldn't be far off, if I would say majority of WC racers, were extremely loud about this decision, and how FIS shouldn't take care of this, and how their protection is their own problem and not FIS problem. Then Albrecht, Grugger etc. happen, and same people are all over FIS, they don't do anything about racers safety.
And to be honest, I don't blame racers about this, even though it might look so. I was in their position for long enough, that I know how you look at these things once you spent all those hours on trainings.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Quote: |
Last season at my sons school (Schihotelfachschule Bad Hofgastein)of a class of 23 athletes all under 16, 9 sustained season ending injuries, one even broke his back in two places, and these are fit lads who follow the schools very tough fitness program.
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Quote: |
Few years later, FIS made rule, that helmets in SL and GS are obligatory, and I wouldn't be far off, if I would say majority of WC racers, were extremely loud about this decision, and how FIS shouldn't take care of this, and how their protection is their own problem and not FIS problem. Then Albrecht, Grugger etc. happen, and same people are all over FIS, they don't do anything about racers safety.
And to be honest, I don't blame racers about this, even though it might look so. I was in their position for long enough, that I know how you look at these things once you spent all those hours on trainings
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I know nothing about the technical aspects of ski racing but these posts, from people who know much more, make interesting (and sobering) reading. I love watching the racing but always with my heart in my mouth and I hate it when there are crashes - and I don't know any of them from Adam.
9 season-ending injuries in a class of 23 strong and fit young men? That's horrendous.
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spud, I race and coach at a fairly low level, I don't enjoy current GS and would like to see something change, I think it has become closer to a third speed discipline than it was in the days of "straight" skis. I don't have a feel for whether this change will help though I think the >27m skis were an improvement on the >21m ones in reducing the chance of them suddenly hooking up.
The entry level FIS GS races that I see are typically set around 25m and will still take place in poor conditions.
One thing that isn't part of the rule change is a suggested progression in ski lengths and sidecut radii for U16s. The current rules do provide this.
If all racers over 16 are going to be on similar looking skis then it is going to be harder to know which ones are suitable for the lighter ones, at present you just suggest that they buy the shorter of the FIS legal lengths.
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Primoz et al,
I wasn't commenting on the technical merits at all - in fact I am not really qualified to do so. I hope the changes will impact safety positively but there still seems a bit of debate on that. Whatever the technical merits it seems pretty clear that the change management issues have not really been addressed.
Firstly the logistics of manufacturing and distribution are important and seem to have been ignored by FIS;
Secondly costs will rise significantly for the majority of lower level FIS racers who actually buy their own skis;
Thirdly there will be a steep learning curve as skiers, coaches (and course setters?) adjust to the new specifications. It is quite possible that injuries may rise during transition (hopefully to fall later). It is a common experience from other hazardous activity - something I am qualified to comment on - that change (even when done for reasons of safety) carries safety risks itself;
Fourthly the progression in ski specification as children move into FIS seems to be unclear.
All a bit of a muddle.
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A couple of Racers have spoken out about the proposed change...
Taken from Ski Racing.
Top ski racing athletes are reacting following an announcement made Thursday by the International Ski Federation (FIS) that introduced changes in ski racing equipment regulations.
The change garnering the most attention by racers and fans alike, is that made to men’s GS skis. The FIS will now require the minimum length of GS skis to be 10 centimeters longer past requirements dictated. The radii minimum was also bumped from 27cm to 40. The women’s minimum for GS skis was also lengthened by eight centimeters.
The FIS made the shift citing evidence that the changes would help reduce injuries, but several athletes have spoke out in opposition to the move.
Current GS World Champion, American Ted Ligety let fans know about his opinion of the change on his facebook page.
“FIS turns back the clock on ski racing. Who wants to see GS racers not arcing?” wrote the 2006 Olympic gold medalist. “Well that's what u r in for. Current 185cm, 27m. Now 195cm, 40m. Big change! No real data and major rule changes generally lead to bad outcomes. Not cool or smart=dumb.”
Ligety later posted further criticism of the change, joking that ski racing legends of the past were returning with there outdated equipment. “The rumors are true, Von Gruenigen and Tomba are making their comebacks with the new ski rules. Salzgeber might need to lend me his old skis circa '96 but then again, they might not have enough radius.”
Still active ski racing icon Bode Miller commented this week that FIS equipment regulations are holding back the sport.
“FIS could just remove themselves from the equation, that would be my top suggestion [for positive change].” said Miller. “I think that unrestricting equipment is key. They have shown that restricting equipment across the board in almost every sport does not help.That is a big part of letting the sport evolve outside of those kinds of restrictions.”
The FIS is in the process of reconsidering the GS dimensions changes based on recent reactions from ski manufacturers concerned about the time frame needed to produce skis ahead of the coming season. A final decision is expected in late August.
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Some more thoughts from Ted Ligety here after using the new skis.
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FIS have now backed down a little and GS radius for men will be 35m instead of 40m.
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There seems to some bad feeling among top performers about the change to longer ski's but then they have the most to loose, as they are performing at their best with the current regulations.
If I were a racer or coach in the 'mid field' I'd be pretty excited. There are real possibilities to shake up the current hierarchy and make a jump up the rankings and if I were running the UK team I'd be seeing this as an opportunity and grabbing it with both hands.
I'd also argue that the video's of top skiers looking horrible on the new kit demonstrates the opportunity. They look horrible because they are trying to apply current technique which is now obsolete. A thoughtful coach & skier should be able to reap dividends.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Quote: |
Looks crap doesn't it. |
Because they can't do the task. Their skill set is wrong and they are back to being learners. That will change and it will look a lot better when they start displaying a skilled performance.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) You know it makes sense.
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Skis are designed to Carve not Skid. If the Gates are set at less than a 40m Radius, then regardless of what tecnique is used, no one is going to get around those Gates without skidding or putting in a Stivot move.
There is nothing wrong with carving skis imho. It's the courses themselves and how they are set, that's the biggest problem.
Who wants to go back to skidding and straddling gates?
It will not encourage new people to take up Racing...it will only discourage imho.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It seems the FIS have stood by their decisions and that 80% of the Racers are against it.
Surely the FIS should listen to the people doing it day in day out?
Personally I think the Racers should strike. The FIS are becoming a Dinosaur. Stop changing the bloody rules and regs all the friggin time.
http://www.planetski.eu/news/3179
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Poster: A snowHead
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I watched the races live at Sölden this weekend and it was obvious who had adapted, who had built up the strength to skivot and who just could not hack it! In the Ladies race, it wasn't pretty but most were able to train and modify their style to accommodate the changes - I think Maria riesch's result showed that she has some training to do if she is to seriously challenge and therefore retain the overall championship
The research the rule changes were based out was carried out over a fairly long period of time and was fairly solid in terms of linking the increasing risk of serious injury with the changes that had been introduced to the equipment. To my mind it was long overdue. Yes the racers today will have problems but if it means that the youngsters coming through are not injured or worse, then it is time to adapt and change. The length overall difference is only 2 cms. The change in radius is harder and the racers should be making sure that the courses are set that enable them to use the modifications effectively. The current racers should be ensuring that the courses match the equipment.
All this complaining reminds me of the "huge" outcry when they changed from wooden fixed pole gates to sprung-loaded ones. The higher up the tree they were, in general the more they complained. Ingmar stenmark was the most vocal as he had perfected his style for the old gates and for some reason he seemed unable to adapt to the straighter line that skiers were able to take. He even went into some speed events to try and bring his points up as he wanted to retain his Crystal Globes. He didn't succeed and he did not change his style, eventually he retired within two seasons.
FIS have to think of their duty of care to ALL racers not just a few prima donnas spud.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Samerberg Sue wrote: |
I watched the races live at Sölden this weekend and it was obvious who had adapted, who had built up the strength to skivot and who just could not hack it! |
That's staggeringly perceptive, as the new rules don't come in for another year yet! http://www.fis-ski.com/data/document/specifications-ski-lenght-radius-profil-widht-standing-height-edition-01-09-2011_new.pdf. Unless I'm much mistaken, what you were looking at was how they ski on the existing skis - i.e. 23m for women and 27m for men. As that is the level of stivot required for old spec skis (which goes to show that carving is not the be all and end all ) - just think what it'll be like when the new regs come in nextr year.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Samerberg Sue, The length increase is a lot more than 2cm for a 16yo racer. FIS needs to come up with a progression of equipment to be used by younger racers in my view.
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GrahamN, From memory the women started stivoting at Soelden in 2005 after they had seen Bode do it the year before, Janica Kostelic and Andrea Fischbacher inspected the second run properly and realized that they could just clean carve it and got the two fastest times.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GrahamN, I was not the only one commenting, several coaches, whose qualifications are way higher than mine ever were, were also commenting. The skiers are making adjustments already because when the regulation comes into force it will be too late to change. I, maybe incorrectly, was under the impression that they were already in force. the women's race showed a particularly "ugly" style with some interesting techniques to try and compensate.
The slope was, by the way in a much better condition than the previous three race weekends I have attended. I expected a lot more fluency and last night compared photos of the same skiers in the previous 3 weekends to see if I was imaginging things but the lines were not as clean and we saw a variety of techniques to cope with the course, conditions and the new skis.
rjs, but it is not the young skiers complainng is it! A lot of what is being reported in the media (specialists as well as general) is focussed on the top racers complaining.
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Samerberg Sue, What gate distances and offsets were used for each of the years that you are comparing ?
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Samerberg Sue... I don't think it's a case of Prima Donnas. You only have to read what Bode and Shred have to say about it to realise that. They have complained about the FIS fiddling with everything for years. They also talk about the future for the kids and not themselves.
The biggest problem is not the skis, but the actual courses and how they are set.
Like you said yourself...Skiing Ugly is not the way forward. It will not attract people to the sport. Just put them off.
Skis are designed to carve. Courses should be set to allow the skier to carve the ski and not skid. A skier shouldn't have to look for an alternative way to get down fast. Who wants to compensate?
Something is radically wrong with the sport if you have to keep making rules and reg adjustments every year.
Personally i think the FIS are being over cautious. Kids playing Rugby and Football go through far more trauma than a skier. And Millions do it every week.
It's all gone soft imho.
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rjs, comparing them actually on the gate not the whole gate. I have a few fixed favourites which I can get clear shots of and the body positions look very weird compared to the previous years. not an exact science just an impression.
spud, I listened to and read what Ted Ligety said, I'm afraid Mr Miller does not enjy my respect (long story). I'm not convinced by anyones arguments but the research by the Uni of Salzburg carried out over many races (not just world Cup) and the accidents that are taking place make for interesting reading and both the role models at the top and the organisers have to get this sorted so that young skiers are not crippled or worse on their way up to the dizzy heights of World Cup racing.
And as I said, what we watched at the weekend, was not in general very pretty. Why that was, when conditions were perfect, I'm not qualified to judge. I can only compare and the Men's race (as far as it went) as well as the womens's races last year was a much more beautiful to watch close up.
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Samerberg Sue, You were watching a race run to the old rules. A few years ago the women were not as strong technically so there was not as much need to slow them down by setting similar courses to those for the men. The technique in most FIS races looks like the Eurotest clip that jjc james posted on Facebook.
I thought it was interesting that Ted dismissed the injury to Benni because it was caused by skiing in the same course as women, there are lots of lower level FIS GS races where men and women share the same course, there is more to racing than the WC.
I had been thinking that a better rule change would be to impose a maximum gate distance, it works fine for slalom and the skis have evolved to the point where they don't catch you out, it would be consistent with the idea that GS is a technical discipline. There is a post from primoz on Epicski with a similar argument.
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You cannot danger proof this sport. But it seems that's the mentality some have. Given the speeds and demands of the sport the safety record is incredible. That doesn't mean we rest on our laurels and don't improve in areas. But why don't they consult with the skiers? Haven't they in the past when considering course safety measures? This is primarily an issue for the tech events. Are the rates of serious injury/death that high in GS to warrant these drastic changes? 80% of the skiers are against it. I can't imagine many of the tech skiers being in favour of it. At the end of the day the athletes are agreeing to take a risk. These are professional skiers not Joe Public. Why are FIS imperiously imposing this on them?
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