 Poster: A snowHead
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can anyone advise if heavy rwd cars fitted with winter tyres cope ok with alpine conditions ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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They cope, but it really isn't what they are designed for. It also depends on how alpine you are talking about - sheet ice and deep snow create problems for them, but then a badly driven 4x4 or FWD car can't cope with them either.
It also depends how heavy, and what gadgets you've got to help you getting out of trouble. Older RWD cars require a lot more skill than many of the modern ones with computers maximising the grip you've got in the right setting.
Snow chains should fix part of the problem, but if you are planning on spending more than a few weeks in the mountains you might want to consider a cheap second car which is ideal for the job - something like a Subaru Legacy can be picked up for £1K and will be relatively reliable and perfect for the job.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My Merc (without winter tyres) was absolute sh!te in snow/ice.
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My Merc (with winter tyres) was absolutely brilliant in snow/ice
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well that's one lesson to be learned then.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Colin B, If you look closely, you can see the roof rails just below my roof-box poking out of the snow. The second car back is mine - a Merc Estate. I thought that I would have to put chains on to get up the mountain to the lifts. Got in the car, crossed fingers, and just drove off - no issues what so ever. Tyres were Vredestein Wintrac xtremes, drives as normal and quiet on tarmac, and brilliant in those conditions on snow. It was my first time with them and I was impressed to say the least. Doesn't mean other brands are not as good or better - just worked for me..!
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Saab 9-5 is proberly the best car without 4wheeldrive in wintertime, with winter tyre I dont need chains more than maximum 1 day per season 
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| Tatty wrote: |
| My Merc (with winter tyres) was absolutely brilliant in snow/ice |
+1
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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+2
my old e class w124 estate with vredestein wintertracs was excellent, except if you parked and then had to reverse out...got stuck twice like that. It had quite narrow tyres for a heavy car, 185 width, a lot of modern cars are not good because of huge wide tyres.
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Just imagine what would it be like if you have a 4x4, with added ground clearance, on a set of new winter tyres!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Colin B wrote: |
| My Merc (without winter tyres) was absolute sh!te in snow/ice. |
The tyres do make all the difference though, as others have said. I had a company Merc once with ordinary tyres on it that it came with, and even in that iddy bit of snow we had in Feb 2007 (hardly anything compared to last winter just gone) it was an absolute nightmare getting home from work. There were loads of abandoned Mercs and BMWs on the side of the roads. I didn't try winter tyres on it as it wasn't mine and since then I've bought my own (non Merc and non RWD) car anyway so couldn't tell you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| saikee wrote: |
| Just imagine what would it be like if you have a 4x4, with added ground clearance, on a set of new winter tyres! |
I don't have to imagine, I've got two.
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Spyderman,
In your case we have to mention "low range gear" and "lockable differential" too.
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You know it makes sense.
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Buzzfan,
| Quote: |
| can anyone advise if heavy rwd cars fitted with winter tyres cope ok with alpine conditions ? |
The answer to your question as posed is a detailed and very hesitant yes (meaning NO!), but the fact that you've asked indicates that your experience in driving in heavy alpine conditions (which after all you are really hoping for!) is probably somewhere south of limited?
Practice on snow-covered empty car parks (careful with hidden kerbs) is a minimum requisite - steering and stopping at even 5mph can be a nightmare and an expensive thing to correct when mistakes are made.
You need to note that many ski areas/cantons in the EU require mandatory fitting of winter tyres, carrying of snow-chains and in Switzerland headlights on day and night even in town. Many people don't bother but in the event of an accident when blame is dished out like confetti not having them on can be construed as contributory negligence.
Bottom line is that driving a rear-wheel drive in “good” (for skiing/bad for driving) snow conditions isn’t a great idea unless you have considerable experience under your belt –I’ve driven thousands of miles through fairly deep snow, mostly in a beaten up old Toyota Rav 4 with Goodyear Wrangler M+S tyres which I’ve always found brilliant, especially on hills and the rest with front wheel drives. I came off once on a bend, hitting a strip of icy slush on a bend that didn’t receive direct sunlight in winter. The triangular ramp that the French put on some bends, around 30cm high literally saved my life, by stopping the car and beaching it like a see-saw with the rear wheels just touching the ground and the front spinning in the air. The three cars behind me all came off too, the first hitting my rear bumper and gently nudging me over & off the barrier ramp which had clearly saved my life. This was a very sobering experience even after several years in the snow, and luckily with the benefit of hindsight I know that I should have read the road better and slowed down even more for the bend than I did.
Basically however well or carefully one drives a simple mistake can literally cost you your life (and passengers?) so potentially ensuring your car, tyres and drive system are the best you can get for the conditions you may encounter is a sensible option as Monium suggested, especially if you have friends or family as passengers who perhaps haven’t a clue or a vote on the issue. If you've ever fallen over accidentally on the slopes then you know how easy it is to make an easy but forgivable mistake, but on the other hand in a car, mistakes in the snow are usually punished quite heavily.
You can pick up decent, and trustworthy old 4x4 for around £4K which you should be able to sell for say £3K when you get back if you buy and drive carefully.
, 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| saikee wrote: |
Spyderman,
In your case we have to mention "low range gear" and "lockable differential" too. |
and a winch and snorkel
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Buzzfan wrote: |
| can anyone advise if heavy rwd cars fitted with winter tyres cope ok with alpine conditions ? |
and don't forget good European breakdown cover with vehicle, driver and passenger re-patriation in case it doesn't 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And always carry a long handled soft brush for sweeping snow off the car, a long handled heavy duty ice-scraper and a decent strong steel shovel. I carry two as it's surprising how many people need help when the snow is heavy. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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BMW 320D in the snow no problem at all with winter tyres and pretty much go anywhere, experience required - some common sense. BMW 320D in the snow with summer tyres - don't think of going out no matter your loads of experience. Don't listen to nonsense about RWD being bad in snow. It's down to equipment and some skill whether FWD or RWD.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I drove a 6 litre v8 rwd Holden statesman on a slightly icy road this week. Absolutely terrifying but amusing at the same time. Missed my flight because of it as well, and got the fuel computer up to 99.9 litres per 100 km
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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And that does mean winter tyres front and back..
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under a new name, Troll
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It is my belief if a motorist lives through an average UK winter with an average AWD car on average stock tyres there could be 25% chance he/she never goes back to a 2WD car. This is based on the assumption of possibly 25% of the motorists value the freedom of using the car everyday of the year and never have to bother with wind, rain and snow again. A AWD car normally costs a bit more but a peace of mind if not safety to some is priceless.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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saikee,
It is my belief if a motorist lives through an average UK winter with an average FWD car on average winter tyres there could be much more than 25% chance he/she never goes back to using summer tyres in winter. 
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Alastair Pink,
I have been running AWD cars for about 11 years and winter tyres for about 7 years so I belong to the 25% minority.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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saikee, Maybe that makes it 26% then
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Buzzfan wrote: |
| can anyone advise if heavy rwd cars fitted with winter tyres cope ok with alpine conditions ? |
It's not just a tyre issue. Suspension design has as much to do with accelerative grip on RWD cars, probably more so than simple tyre choice, within reason.
The old Volvo 240 series cars had designed in quite substantial amounts of anti-squat to transfer weight to the rears on acceleration. Which is why they come off the corners well when raced, as any old rallycross vid will show. Not by coincidence they came from generally snowy climate.
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Jivebaby - to add to your list: A head torch because if you need to fit chains you will be on your own and it will be dark (there is a law about this but as I'm new I don't know what language I can get away with). Also a heavy duty plastic bag to kneel on - which is also handy for throwing the chains in when you take them off - because the second rule of snow chains appears to be that they never go back in the box! (The first rule being you wish you had put them on 500m ago).
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You know it makes sense.
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And you will also need the number of a good divorce lawyer if you try and put the snow chains on for the first time on a snowy hill with wife/husband helping. Always amusing to see couples having a fall out whilst putting snow chains on
PS have old Merc Estate and put snow tyres on in winter - only ever once had to resort to chains and tht was when, frankly, I should have stayed at home. So few of the local Frenchies have 4x4 - doesnt that tell you somehting?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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A couple of blocks of wood that you can drive on to helps with getting chains on as well. If I'm having to fit chains a lot, I just put them on a spare set of wheels, stick the wheels on the roof, and swap them over. It's quicker and less messy.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I went skiing in Tahoe last December, I decided to hire a normal 2WD vehicle from San Francisco instead of a 4WD (because 4WD cost too much) and bought some snow-chains. To my surprise, the snow-chains of nowadays are so easy to install (compare with the old chain link type of the 80s).
Problem with snow-chains is speed, you just cannot drive fast with the chains on. Otherwise handling is fine.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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alti - dude,
| Quote: |
| So few of the local Frenchies have 4x4 - doesnt that tell you somehting? |
Yes: 1) They drive better in those conditions and 2) They nearly always have FWD!
chocksaway, Yes quite right: forgot to add I carry a good torch and small bag of rags (wiping hands clean-ish) and and old all-in-one boiler suit for when I'm not in salopettes. The head torch is in my off-piste back-pack ;o)
I don’t actually have a set of chains for my old Rav 4 as I’ve almost never needed them, but if really I’m honest driving back down hill from Flaine when there’s been a 50cm+ dump during the day makes that journey more than hazardous enough to warrant chains, and as I’m planning Chamonix this year I’ll pick up some chains, as crawling down the hill just on throttle tickover makes it a very long journey I’ve ordered fabulous snow for the season so I’ll need them!
What most people don’t realise is that a car AWD/FWD/RWD without winter tyres really doesn’t have any brakes in fresh snow going down-hill so stopping without the right equipment underneath the car really is a game of chance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
What most people don’t realise is that a car AWD/FWD/RWD without winter tyres really doesn’t have any brakes in fresh snow going down-hill so stopping without the right equipment underneath the car really is a game of chance.
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There are also all season tyres with mud and snow (M&S) patterns. A large number of vehicles are still on wheel sizes that no winter tyres have been manufactured yet.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Always amusing to see couples having a fall out whilst putting snow chains on
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My husband tells me that's why he always stays in the car.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Samerberg Sue, I've bought all season M+S in the UK and upgrades in Geneva since, probably France next time depending upon FX rates
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Samerberg Sue,
Many car manufacturers are offering 20"+ alloys and performance tyres "Z" rated (over 150mph capability). Not all of them can be fitted with winter tyres matching the specification of the car.
Most of the winter tyres we get from UK are already indirect orders from Europe (mostly from Germany). Majority of UK motorists do not believe in winter tyres and the market did not exist nationally until about 5 to 8 years ago.
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saikee, if you can afford that kind of spec, you probably have another car or set of wheels for winter if you live over here 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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saikee, I made sure the Nokians on my Scooby were the higher speed rated version. They are great for a low milage summer tyre too. Haven't had a problem with loss of grip yet.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| saikee, I made sure the Nokians on my Scooby were the higher speed rated version. They are great for a low milage summer tyre too. Haven't had a problem with loss of grip yet. |
Snow tyres in summer can be deadly. Here in NZ they have been the cause of several fatal crashes - often fitted to cheap jappa imports, and there has been a lot of discussion about banning their use outside of winter months.
M & S aren't snow tyres, they are just all terrain tyres, no special compound for cold weather usually.
Personally, I would far prefer to be in a 4wd than a 2wd when the roads are snowy, doesn't mean you can leave your brains at home, or not use chains, but it makes life easier.
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