 Poster: A snowHead
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I have been tidying things out of cupboards lately and turned up the Nov 2010 Daily Mail Ski and Snowboard magazine as given out at the London Ski Show last year. I was browsing through this (which I hadn't done at the time) when suddenly I chanced on what I felt was an excellent article. I just thought it might be worth telling you about it as it might help someone.
I've read all the threads about A framing without really understanding what it was. I assumed it was a shape that the legs assumed, but then thought well the dimensions of the legs must naturally lead to a triangle shape by dint of the fact that they join at the groin, so didn't really 'get' what the problem was.
So then I found this article and I thought the description was that good it was worth putting down in a thread in case any other novice was as equally confused by what it is. To whit:
When progressing from snowplough to parallel turns most skiers end up with an asymmetric stance with the knees a bit closer together than the feet. This 'A Frame' shape affects performance because it means your skis are likely to be tilted at different angles most of the time' The effect is especially noticeable in deep powder - there you can feel the skis wanting to go in slightly different directions.
It then goes on to talk about a Power (P) stance where the knees are square over the feet and how you can check and correct this, simply with hands on knees, looking down the line from knees to feet occasionally and putting fists between knees if you really can't get it. There were lots of good photos and it all was so simply put that I just thought it seemed a good article.
If anyone still has the mag and has been puzzled by the odd bits BZK about 'A framing' over the months then I think it's worth digging out for a re-read.
Now, I need to work out if I do it!! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, Keep in mind that female skiers will always " appear " to have an A frame due to the fact the the femur rotates further than that of a male, this is quite natural and to do with anatomy. Rather than address the cosmetics I would recommend working on edge angles from the skis up.
The whole A frame issue is sometimes over coached. Look at the worlds best skiers gripping at the end of a high speed GS turn. The legs are often tilting at different angles.
That said, I am sure it was a great article.
PSG
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gilleski, That's interesting, there isn't so much explored on BZK regarding differences between women and men that alter aspects of skiing. Sometimes you see something written about a different centre of gravity, but I haven't seen anything about the femur being different. I guess the aspect of childbirth altering the dimension of the pelvis may also play a part?
For anyone interested the article was attributed to the Warrne Smith Ski Academy. The description and the notion that two legs ankles to knees that are equally distant should result in an equal tilt of the skis does make sense if nothing else.
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Megamum, it's not the femur which is different it is to do with the relative hip widths of men and women (women have larger hips). See skimottaret's glossary for an explanation, under "Q Angle".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, well I never! That certainly goes down as one of those 'things learned today'. I've just spent the last two minutes standing with my feet at different widths and seeing what it does to knee angles. Good job no-one was looking
The same magazine also looked at exercises to promote the freedom of movement necessary to finish turns, in one exercise the skier stood square against a wall and then stepped the feet around to an angle parallel with each other without moving the hips (I guess promoting the notion that the skis can move sideways whilst the skier still faces down the hill). The information about the Q angle seems as though it has relevance to how successfully that particular swivelling exercise might be able to be carried out?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, Agree totally with this, it's to do with femur and pelvis anatomy and the differences in males and females ( due to the fact that females carry children). It's interesting when I hear instructors trying to change things that go against nature because it doesn't match a picture. I am skied with many male and female skiers off piste and success is generally found in changing the blend of steering elements.
PSG
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| gilleski wrote: |
... skied with many male and female skiers off piste and success is generally found in changing the blend of steering elements.
PSG |
Exactly. Fundamental skills are far more important that body geometry. Although I do know a girl skier who wore baggy pants with cargo pockets full of stuff when on a BASI course to ensure her large Q angle wasn't misinterpreted as an A frame
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So in theory a woman might have more problems with this A frame stance once they have had children than before when their hips are narrower? So if there is an anatomical reason for the stance what can be done to work round it.
N.B. This is just an idle curiosity thread, but it's summer and things have been a bit dull in BZK lately - I thought the article was interesting enough in the first instance, but it seems to have spawned a slightly more interesting area of discussion that I was unaware of 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| So in theory a woman might have more problems with this A frame stance once they have had children than before when their hips are narrower? So if there is an anatomical reason for the stance what can be done to work round it. |
Not really, unless your hips are significantly wider after childbirth?
I've only seen one skier who had such extreme biomechanics alignment that it significantly affected their capacity to learn to ski, and that was a bloke with an "O Frame". There will be far more important aspects of performance than alignment for the vast majority of recreational skiers.biomechanical
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Megamum, Don't try and change it, that's my point. You will perfectly be able to ski using your natural anatomy. Focus more on achieving an out put and less on fitting your self in to a technique! focus on the Skilful application of basic fundamentals. We can all achieve the same result ( success) from varied inputs. in other words, we don't all do the same stuff to get a similar result. All good skiers share similar characteristics , however on deeper analysis it becomes clear that we also do a lot that in unique!
PSG
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
unless your hips are significantly wider after childbirth?
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I don't know by what %age they are normally wider, but from what I have seen on TV recently it is certainly noticeable. It is something that is often looked at on fashion progs as well as those about the human body. Whether the difference is sufficient to make an anatomical difference in skiing I've no idea, perhaps it isn't.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, In women the pelvis is wider, flatter and usually slightly tilted compared to a man, growth continues till it stops in most around 17/18. This allows room for childbirth. This bony structure does not change as a result of childbirth, though there can be increased joint laxity, which includes the synthesis of the pubis, for up to about 18 months following childbirth. In my experience women also tend to have a larger range of hip motion (internal & external rotation) which could be seen as a benefit in skiing and some other sporting  activities.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Whether the difference is sufficient to make an anatomical difference in skiing I've no idea, perhaps it isn't. |
I very much doubt that it makes any significant difference.
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You know it makes sense.
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| gilleski wrote: |
Megamum, Don't try and change it, that's my point. You will perfectly be able to ski using your natural anatomy. Focus more on achieving an out put and less on fitting your self in to a technique! focus on the Skilful application of basic fundamentals. We can all achieve the same result ( success) from varied inputs. in other words, we don't all do the same stuff to get a similar result. All good skiers share similar characteristics , however on deeper analysis it becomes clear that we also do a lot that in unique!
PSG |
QFT
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, what a brilliant tactic. Those baggy cargo pants are all the rage in Hintertux
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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little tiger, Does QFT mean quit f****** talking ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gilleski, I'm not looking to change anything based on a supposed anatomical deficiency, I'm quite sure I will be able to learn to ski as well as I wish without needing to worry unduly about such things. I just posted as the article had explained at long last and in clear terms what an A frame actually was (and it wasn't what I had supposed), and then someone mentioned that women's hips came into play which just seemed interesting as a concept.
ITS A HYPOTHETICAL DISCUSSION - I'm not off to get surgery to correct dodgy hips or focus on it for the next five years - it just seemd mildly interesting in the middle of a dull summer!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just to add to all the above very valid points, it's worth noting that many people suffer from pronation of the feet and ankle. Where it rotates inwards. This also causes the knees to fall inside. This leads to skiing on the inside of your skis, when you think you are skiing them flat.
I suffered from this problem, and had some really good insoles made, which supported the Arch and stopped the feet from rolling inwards. It's also worth having the canting adjusted on your boots. To start with it feels like you are walking on the outside of your feet. But it's amazing how much difference it makes. Especially with the extra edge control you can achieve.
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