 Poster: A snowHead
|
Hi! This sultry heat has prompted me to starting thinking about next year's skiing trip ...
I'd love to know more about Austria having only ever been to France and Switzerland.
We're a mixed group of skiers and non-skiers with young children and favour convenience of ski schools in the village, access up the mountain for the non-skiers to meet up, lots of long cruising pistes and not too bothered about tricky blacks and couloirs  Also prefer more of a village than a town and looking to drive next year rather than fly...
Am I right in thinking there are more hotels than catered chalets in Austria? Self catering could also work well if anyone has any recommendations for anything convenient to the lifts.
Also keen to hear about ski schools; do resorts tend to have both Austrian and private ones and again, any recommendations?
Thanks for any help you can give
Tor
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
tor, Wagrain in the Sportwelt Amadé fits your bill perfectly. If you are driving out then Altenmarkt/Radstadt offers you a small town environment with loads of opportunities for non-skiers.
The number of ski schools per area is indicative of the demand. There is no domination or preferential treatment such as the ESF have and receive, all the schools are "privately owned". The important thing is that all are run to the same standard if they are run by Austrians and you will find that all the instructors speak excellent English, especially those working with multi-national groups. Any official ones run by Brits have to have instructors with ISTD qualifications in order to run legally. There are some operating on a "club" basis which is a clear indication that the people running the "club" are NOT ISTD qualified.
As for the inflexibility in changeover issuesPeteMan refers to it is more likely that the issues were TO based or perhaps to do with them not thinking outside the "French" box. Austria is a different model, you will get better value for your money in your accommodation as the service concept is based on getting people to return to the same place year in year out. That is the European model and probably why so many European mainlanders do head towards places in Switzerland and Austria in their droves each year.
Serfus/Fliss in the Tirol is voted year in year out the best family orientated resort in the Alps, but it does tend a)not to be in UK-based TO brochures and b) I have heard it can be expensive, but I am not convinced on that argument, especially f you are organising the trip yourself and driving out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Samerberg Sue, Val d'Isere, in France, has 19 ski schools (http://www.valdisere.com/gb/glisse/ecoles/ecoles_de_ski.php?expandable=1&ssmenu=24), just one of those is ESF. I understand Top Ski in Val had a tough time breaking into the local ski school market originally but sure is a good choice of ski schools and guides in town now. That's not really the case in Austria, most ski resorts are dominated by one or two locally run ski schools. Even somewhere like St Anton only has a couple of ski schools (I heard owned by the same chap?) and a few off piste guiding companies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
PeteMan,
Thanks Pete ... off to have a read  I like the sound of Cervinia too but guess that means flying ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Samerberg Sue, Hi Sue - thanks so much for finding the time to reply. I haven't yet read the changeover day thread but will do. If we're driving then we can be flexible anyway. Interesting what you say about the ski schools too and thanks for the resort recommendations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
PeteMan, you really have done your homework! Where have you decided to go? Tor
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
waynos, ESF still pay the French government a tax which enables them to have priority lines at lifts, so regardless of how many schools there are, they do have preferential treatment. I worked for the ESF in the early 1980s so I know how it used to run. The fact that there are still ESF channels at the lifts implies that the situation has not changed much, even if the market has opened up.
As for Austria, the market used to be a closed shop with only the one franchised national school, but now, as long as the owners have the correct qualifications, anyone can open a school in accordance with the EU legislation against monopolies. The fact that they are locally run is a positive for me, as many of the instructors grew up on the slopes and therefore know them like the back of their hands and are unlikely to get lost in low vis/bad weather.
There are 6 ski schools in Flachau alone, 3 in Alpendorf, 10 in Schladming, 2 in Wagrain (a small village), 7 in the St Anton area (excluding those from Vorarlberg which is where Lech etc are), 6 in Sölden, etc. Things have changed a lot but the training is standardised and the level of instruction these days is fairly consistent, as well as high.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Samerberg Sue, 10 in Schladming, only 4 listed on this website http://www.schladming-dachstein.at/en/winter/ski_board/skischulen-snowboardschulen/ and one of those is snowboard only. I don't know of any other ski school in schladming outside those listed.
I've never come across ESF only lift lines in France, I've done a couple of seasons in Val, numerous other trips to the well know to brit market mega french ski resorts. I'm no fan of ESF, or any state monopoly, but like wise I don't see Austria as a particularly open market, despite EU legislation. The key difference is there is no state wide ski school in Austria. As for the assertion training is standardised from my experience ski schools around here will take anyone professing to having a ski instructor cert from anywhere, especially during peak periods.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
waynos, 9 ski schools in Saalbach too.
St Anton has the normal Arlberg Ski Schule, then the 'red' one, which are both the same, apart from one uniform is trimmed with yellow and the other blue. The Arlberg Ski Schule also has bases in Lech etc. They used to (still do?) dominate the market - when I worked there there were over 400 instructors in the main St Anton school. I think recently some new legislation has passed (or maybe the 'Anton Mafia' [lol] has been persuaded) to allow other schools to operate, there is adefinitely a new school/guiding outfit being run by a lot of people who used to be high up in the Arlberg Ski Schule, maybe more will follow. FWIW, I really didn't like the Arlberg Ski Schule, generally customer service seemed to be pretty poor and charges high - it was run more as a factory than a school.
To the OP, take a look into both Saalbach (biased plug for Fuestauer Ski School, in the village centre), and Westendorf. In Saalbach pedestrians can get up the Schattberg to meet people for lunch, in Westendorf there are restaurants right by the top and middle stations of the Alpenrosenbahn, and my personal favourite lunch stop* is reachable by a short taxi then a 5 minute walk (across, not up).
*I'll find the proper name later
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| As for the inflexibility in changeover issuesPeteMan refers to it is more likely that the issues were TO based or perhaps to do with them not thinking outside the "French" box. Austria is a different model, you will get better value for your money in your accommodation as the service concept is based on getting people to return to the same place year in year out. That is the European model and probably why so many European mainlanders do head towards places in Switzerland and Austria in their droves each year. |
You are certainly right the TO's are completely inflexible regarding changeover dates (try searching on IgluSki for Austria departures on the 26/12). However, IMHO the vast majority of 3*/4* Austrian hotels also operate a Sat/Sat or Sun/Sun changeover and are very reluctant to deviate from this (as you will know, Christmas Eve is the main celebration in Austria). That's why we are going to Cervinia this year.
Driving times from London are 13.30 to Cervinia and 12:45 to Serfaus. We're flying from Birmingham to Milan on 26/12 for around £85 (return) a head!
Pete
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
tor, I would focus on your requirements for long cruisy blues, a village and one where the lifts run from the centre of the village. These three requirement really will narrow your choices down (from what I understand Serfaus with it's underground railway and Obergurgl will both fit the bill). Most places will have ski schools of a good standard.
Pete
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| PeteMan wrote: |
| However, IMHO the vast majority of 3*/4* Austrian hotels also operate a Sat/Sat or Sun/Sun changeover and are very reluctant to deviate from this (as you will know, Christmas Eve is the main celebration in Austria). Pete |
I've turned up as a solo traveller and never had a problem starting my week on which ever day I like, if the hotel has room. The problem with a lot of the most popular ones is that they are booked up way in advance with repeat bookings fro families or groups of German and Scandinavians who have been using the hotel for years and are treated as a part of the extended family. That is certainly how I was greeted when I had a regular base I used every Christmas.
I deal directly with the hotels and being fluent in the local language helps a lot, as does having an address in Germany (also true for France).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
That's the point. At peak season like new year all hotels will be booked months in advance. At less popular times they will be flexible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
clarky999,
| Quote: |
In Saalbach pedestrians can get up the Schattberg to meet people for lunch
|
Also up the Kohlmais for lunch at the Asteralm, up the Schoenleitenbahn for lunch at the Rachkuechl and the Wildenkarhuette, up the new Bernkogelbahn for lunch at the Baernalm, etc, etc..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
ESF still pay the French government a tax which enables them to have priority lines at lifts, so regardless of how many schools there are, they do have preferential treatment.
|
I've skied with a number of different ski schools in France and they ALL (including easiski as a one-woman band) got priority in lift queues. I think most French resorts of any size (including ours, which is pretty small) now have a choice of ski schools.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
| waynos, 9 ski schools in Saalbach too. |
That's great that there are a good number of ski schools in Saalbach, but our statement implies other Austrian resorts quoted on this page have 9 or more ski schools "too". I'm still waiting to hear details of the reported 10 in Schladming.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
waynos, took it off a web site for Schladming Region - ski schools or boarding? They don't really differentiate. All the ski schools for 4 mountains maybe? They all ski the same areas even if their meeting points may be at different start points 
Stop being so silly - the ski schools all offer damn good service if they are registered. Does it really matter if there is one or 100?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Samerberg Sue i'll stop being so silly thanks for telling me. There are only 4 ski / boarding schools in schladming. If you're going to quote facts and figures try and get them right. I don't personally think ski schools here are any different in general to french ones. I've worked for some here and been a client as I have in france many times. And it does matter if there's 1 or 100, more than 1 in a local area will generate competition and push up standards and service to clients and push down prices, in theory!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
waynos, I really can't see what your particular beef is - the link you gave clearly shows 10 schools in the REGION which is what I stated. OK, so one is apparently a snowboard school, so what? The original poster has not said anything about exclusively wanting ski/snowboard or whatever, although they do refer to skiers and non-skiers.
The OP wanted to know about Austria and was under the impression that there still was a single national school. There is not any more along the model of the ESF, but there is a national system which has delegated the overseeing of training to the local provincial Verbänder (Professional bodies). The Provincial bodies are coordinated by the national governing body, Snowsport Austria (ÖSSV = die Österreichische Skischulverband), and they oversee all the standards. To quote from their web site (www.skilehrer.at/):
| Quote: |
Eine wesentliche Aufgabe des Österreichischen Skischulverbandes stellt die Koordination, Planung und Durchführung der staatlichen Skilehrerausbildung als Partner des Bundesministeriums für Bildung, Wissenschaft und Kultur dar
|
an important task of the Austrian Ski School Association is the coordination, planning and carrying out of the national ski instructor training as the partner of the Federal Ministry for Education Science and Culture
I have worked for both the ESF under the old monopoly system up to the late 80s and the national system in Austria under the single school status (St Johann in Tirol and the Wilder Kaiser area). Since the removal of the monopoly I have also worked with schools in the Salzburgerland area. I'm no longer as au fait with the French system as I was in the past, but certainly noticed the ESF Priorité lines at several lifts in resorts in the past few years. Whether they are still exclusively for the use of the ESF or not I have no idea.
This seems a rather unnecessary thread drift to be honest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
This seems a rather unnecessary thread drift to be honest
|
Agreed, but it wasn't waynos who started the drift by making inaccurate (and irrelevant) statements about what happens in France. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pam w, Sorry Pam but where did I say anything inaccurate? Perhaps you should have read further and more carefully rather than quote selectively?
I was very careful as to how I stated things as I know my knowledge of the French ski schools system is no longer "au courant". I saw ESF channels in some smaller resorts last season (2009/10), mainly in the Massif Central. I also remember the hassles we had from other people when we took our groups through these lines, especially in peak season. We were resented by lots of people who had to wait while we put our groups through - the directors did make us do it one at a time though and we were told not to follow each other too closely with our groups. If we did, often the lifties made us wait and let some of the other skiers through first.
I have never been one to knock the ESF as an organisation as it has, in my experience, done an excellent job, although I have had one or two problems with individual school directors in one resort in the late 80s. However, I speak French and have not had no language difficulties, unlike some who report negatively about the language skills of some of the instructors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I speak French and have not had no language difficulties
|
Samerberg Sue, There you go again Sue! 
pam w, There you go again Pam!
tor, If you can still remember what it was that you were asking about, and if you would like full (and accurate) information about Saalbach-Hinterglemm (including the ski-schools!), PM me your e-mail address, and I'll gladly send you my own comprehensive "Rough Guide" to that resort, which seems to match your requirements very well. I have some experience of other Austrian resorts, such as St Anton, Mayrhofen and Badgastein but would not presume to have up to date, specialist knowledge of them.
(Please don't turn your claws on me ladies, entertaining as it may be - I'm just a sensitive soul at heart!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
OK, so maybe we we can all agree that there is, in general, no longer any "preferential treatment" for the ESF in the French resorts which UK visitors generally go to and that, in general, having a range of different ski schools helps to encourage competition and differentiation amongst them. Whether the claim about the ESF still paying extra taxes which other ski schools don't pay is accurate or not, I have no idea. It is irrelevant to this thread about Austria but an interesting issue, and it would be good to hear from somebody with up to date knowledge about it.
In our resort competition between the ESF and the ESI keeps prices low - private lessons can be astoundingly good value. We always use the ESI and have got to know a few of the instructors well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If you decide to go to the best Austrian resort, St.Anton, whatever you do don't hire skis there, as all the shops appear to have a cartel going - with the same extraordinarily high prices.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Benzknees,
| Quote: |
mixed group of skiers and non-skiers with young children and favour convenience of ski schools in the village, access up the mountain for the non-skiers to meet up, lots of long cruising pistes and not too bothered about tricky blacks and couloirs
|
St Anton???
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
We have skiied a lot in Austria preferring the more picturesque villages and the louder apres ski
Places I would reccommend are St Anton (we now have a chalet there - www.Alpen-Lodge.at) or Ischgl is also good
Would also recommend Saalback and Hinterglim and we liked the montafon region but you really need a car there to get the best out of it
Tim
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tor, with your criteria I'd recommend Serfaus in Austria, good mix of skiing terrain and apparently great for children. There's a few previous threads on Serfaus here if you do a search.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
