 Poster: A snowHead
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doing my first season for 2011/12 and want to buy a 4x4 to take. Lots of choices but I know very little about cars. want as new as poss for the money a diesil 5 seater with plenty of boot area.
The Hyandi Santa fee seems to be coming up pretty cheap, but not sure if that will fall apart out there.
What would you reccommend ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Libertine, I'm not sure I'd specifically bother with a 4x4. We did 2 seasons with a basic panda on stock tyres and it was fine. Had to fit chains now and again but it wasn't too bad.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Something an alpine mechanic will recognise/for which he can easily get parts.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Interested in this thread - I am toying between taking the Corsa or my brothers SUV
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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IMV, some 4x4 estate would be the most practical - say Subaru Forester, Skoda Octavia 4x4, Volvo XC70
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A ute with a canopy on the back.
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Libertine, I drive a Skoda Octavia Est. and live in the Cotswolds where we had a lot of snow this winter (18" in one day) With snow tyres (Kwik Fit £280) this winter I was able to get where a BMW X5 (no suprise there really) and a Toyota Hi-Lux on road tyres lost traction. Ground clearance is not as good as a true 4x4, but its unlikely you will need to traverse more than 6" depth of fresh snow wit hcontinental road clearing. Add to the mix 60mpg fuel economy and class leading boot size, cheap servicing (I've run a Subaru Forester, an Isuzu Trooper and an SWB Landie in the past, all desperately expensive for parts) and I don't think you'll go far wrong. I had a scary downhill moment in the Trooper as well when traction was lost, and 2 tons of uncotrolled metal is not fun.
You'll also get a pretty good car for your money age / condition wise. When we replace this one it will be with a 2wd version of the same or updated Octavia Estate.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 15-06-11 17:30; edited 1 time in total
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old landcruisers are big and well recognised certainly in France if you are set on something like that and you shouldn't have much problem finding one for that price. however, they are overkill most of the time and their weight makes them a bit of a liability when going downhill in slippery conditions (these points apply to any big 4x4 really). altis's suggestions are good IMO; if you don't need something so big, the panda 4x4 is the bestest car ever for zipping up and down snowy mountain roads provided you don't need lots of clearance
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have done the last 6 winters in a VW Passat 4 motion (4x4) with winter tyres fitted. Its never missed a beat. Very economical 45 mpg, always starts and I have never needed to put on chains. One problem, they aren't that common, you might find the Skoda version. I think mines worth about £3k with 120k and 53 plate.
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If you are sticking to roads most people's experience is that a front wheel drive car with snow tyres will get you where you want to go.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Loads and loads of Subarus in Switzerland, but hardly any in France.
I would echo the comment above....get one that the local mechanics are likely to know and can get parts for, so that may mean doing a little digging around for info, and knowing where you are going to spending your season.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Mountain Haddock, I've got a Forester with decent winter tyres... maybe overkill but I have it for the Welsh mountians 
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Libertine, try looking for a Toyota Yaris Verso minivan - front wheel drive with winter tyres. Mine is now 7 years old and I have never ever had to put the chains on it, although they are in the car all winter. Two of the back seats stow away under the front seats leaving acres of flat space in the back. Side opening back door means you can load things easily by just sliding them in. Monstrous amount of space. I have a diesel one and use about 4.5litres for every 100km (no idea what that translates to in old money)
4x4 is a bit of overkill to be honest unless you live up a mountain track. I live in the Alps at 800m and have never had any problems getting anywhere (except up to Espri's house at New Year, but the road was sheet ice )
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You know it makes sense.
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Samerberg Sue, Yes... but 0 - 60 in under 6 secs can't be bad if you like thrashing vehicles 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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The best car or 4x4 is the one with good tyres and a good driver
Good traction control system in 2wd can be better than a 4x4 with nothing as if you loose drive on 1 wheel it could stop you. Some 4x4 systems are useless unless you know how to drive them... whatever you end up buying learn how it works and how to use it in practice. Also as said some bigger 4x4 are more dangerous because of weight... a little panda with snow tyres down hill will probably not loose a race with a disco.
Probably worth looking into what survives the cold best too, winter pack, good heater, etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Our bit of the Alps is crawling with elderly Fiat Panda 4 x 4s. It's what most of the farmers and the building workers on site in all weathers seem to drive around on and parts and servicing won't be a problem. The old ones seem to go on indefinitely - not sure what the newer ones are like; I've seen rather few of those (the farmers probably can't afford them). Most of the big 4 x 4s seem to be visiting furriners, including lots of Dutchmen and Parisians. We have done ten winters with initially a Toyota Carina and now a Fiat Multipla, no problems with either.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You are all missing Libertine's penchant for fashion.
Not sure how much you can get them for in Europe yet but you get a free Hummer with a Hummer here.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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French car makers aren't really big on 4wd, come to think of it apart from the Puegeot 4007 I cannot think of another mainstream 4wd vehicle they make for the UK market at least. Surely if 4wd was neccasary for every day use they would make them for the home market.
As mentioned above tyres are more important, my Ford Focus shod with winter tyres was passing stranded 4x4 when the weather was at it's worst last year.
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| Kel wrote: |
French car makers aren't really big on 4wd, come to think of it apart from the Puegeot 4007 I cannot think of another mainstream 4wd vehicle they make for the UK market at least. Surely if 4wd was neccasary for every day use they would make them for the home market.
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Renault use Nissan to cover the 4x4 market for them.
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For a small car for the Alps, I'd buy a Panda 4x4. Larger an Octavia Estate 4x4, proper 4x4 a Discovery 2 TD5. All within your budget.
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Libertine, as it happens I am about to put my Audi A6 quattro up for sale... used it all last season with winter tyres and it went like a dream. There are masses of 4wd audis out there so parts etc should be easy to find. let me know if you are interested, it would be well within your budget!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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plaisteda, can you send me some pics or a link to the advert please.
Thanks for all the advice above. Food for thought, looking at some tonight.
cheers
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Libertine, Audi A6's a lovely cars, but scary expensive to repair and maintain, when they do finally go wrong and they do. I looked at buying one till I spoke to my next door neighbour at work who is a Audi master technician, he advised me against buying one, some of the repair figures would make your eyes water. He said buy an Octavia instead if you want VAG.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Libertine, have sent you a pm.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We have a Citroen Berlingo which is front wheel drive and has been fine for the last two winters out in the Alps - we put winter tyres on in the UK towards the end of November and just take them off when back in April. Carry chains of course but never had to use them. Previously had a Freelander, 4WD and winter tyres again no problems. Before that a Subaru - Legacy Outback with AWD - we didn't have winter tyres in those days and sometimes had to use chains, if only to get up our last bit of hill. The Berlingo has huge capacity, very comfortable, diesel - but dead ugly and I hope won't be the next car.
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Libertine, For that sort of money you'll get a really decent 3 year old 2WD Golf, I'd stay with 2WD and put 4 Vredstein Wintrac Extreme tyres on it (£500 for 4) on it, and carry a set of chains about from front drive wheels. No need for 4x4 IMO, nice to have but not necessary and those tyres on a Golf will get you anywhere a 4WD will (..........ready for the abuse coming at me already). Or if you want a larger car a Passat or old A4 (just sold my 56 plate A4 Avant with 150k miles on it for £3.8k at auction). If i was going 4WD (and I'm not) I'd go for a Landrover Defender 80, or Toyota/ Nissan pickup but you pay a high premium over 2WD and chains/ proper tyres.
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You know it makes sense.
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Markymark29, agree about those Vredstein tyres being able to cope with a lot!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Did several seasons in Val Thorens some years ago with an Escort XR3i, with snow tyres on the front. Never got stuck, nor used chains.
Conversely, got stuck here in the UK last winter on our driveway with our new VW 4x4!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hmmmm, lots of helpful advice, thanks for that. I have a focus estate diesil 1.9 cdtdi 06 (or something like that) at the moment, so would I be better off keeping that with snow tryes and chains then?
Also, having probs with my insurers, they can only provide 90 days cover in europe per policy year which is not enough, would I be better off insuring in france (no idea how to do that) or is there a UK insurer that would cover me for the 5 months?
thanks again
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Renault also did a Kangoo 4x4 but as others have said you rarely get the chance to really use 4x4 - even with 4x4 you will probably get held up behind the masses with 2WD. I'd only go for 4x4 if you are likely to regulary visit resorts than have steep access roads so you rarely have to get the chains out.
If you are only doing short trips - petrol motors warm up a lot quicker than diesel. Petrol motors are also lighter and can result in a narrower winter tyre than the diesel version. Narrower tyres usually gives better winter driving performance.
The smallest vehicle that meets your needs means you have the narrowest tyres.
Powerful engines often make things a lot worse in the snow as the it's much more diffcult to get the power down gently. Heavy Powerful 4x4's with wide tyres are not the best vehicles to get up hills in winter conditions - they also take longer to stop.
The Skoda Octavia is a good call but be aware than it doesn't offer much space for grown adults in the back. Long journeys with more than 2 adults / large children would be a squeeze. If this isn't a problem it's an excellent choice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Libertine wrote: |
| Hmmmm, lots of helpful advice, thanks for that. I have a focus estate diesil 1.9 cdtdi 06 (or something like that) at the moment, so would I be better off keeping that with snow tryes and chains then? |
If that is big enough for your needs then yes. It's probably a 1.8 or 2.0 TDCi. Put a high quality set of winter tyres (with steel rims), get a good set of snow chains and you are sorted. Going to steel rims means you don't damage your alloys in the winter and can sometimes go for a narrower winter tyre.
I'm running a Ford 2.0 TDCi estate here in Austria - if you need any info on which winter tyres / chains to go for feel free to drop me a PM.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DB, yes, its a 1.9. Seems that I'm probably better off keeping what I have and pending more on quality tyres.
Any ideas on the insurance issue ?
thanks
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Libertine wrote: |
| Any ideas on the insurance issue ? |
Sorry not for France, but there are others here who speak the lingo and live in France who would be better postioned to help you.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| Libertine, If i was going 4WD (and I'm not) I'd go for a Landrover Defender 80, or Toyota/ Nissan pickup but you pay a high premium over 2WD and chains/ proper tyres. |
The Defender is a 90 unless you take an angle grinder to the chassis, haven't made an 80 inch since about 1953.
I wouldn't choose a Defender over a Discovery II for various reasons, namely, the Defender's heater is rubbish, it's far less comfortable for both driver and passengers, the ride is harsh, it lacks creature comforts and for the use it will get in the Alps, a Discovery will do everything a Defender will do. They're basically the same car underneath, apart from the Discovery having a 100 inch wheelbase as against the Defender's 91.5 inch. The only thing that stops a Discovery over a Defender off-road is approach, departure and break-over angles, slightly better ground clearance due to taller tyres and slightly better articulation, none of which you'd notice on road.
Discovery's a far cheaper to buy than Defenders, year for year.
For £7K you'd get a nice 2000 onwards Discovery II TD5 with air-con and toys. Same money the Defender will be 5 years older.
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Best car I had in the Alps ( where my parents live without snow tyres your stuffed) was a KIA sportage. They are very popular in Austria as they are good value, high clearance, fully loaded at a cheap price and have a good 4x4 system. I currently drive another brand, which is great but if I lived full time in the Alps it would be back to the KIA.
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Honda CRV, for that money you might pick up a diesel engine on a 55 plate or a petrol with less miles. I have had an '97 plate petrol for 7 years and it's just the right balance of size and space (roomier than an equivalent freelander) I think. It's dome 163000 miles and has passed the last 6 MOTs without a problem, bar bulbs. For the petrol the fuel economy isn't great 30-35mpg, the diesel is better (42-47 apparently). You might be able to pick up a base model jeep Cherokee Sport for that sort of money too, if you get a manual 6-speed 30 mpg has been reported in reviews.
However I would echo other comments above, a friend of mine who lives in Warwickshire really suffered in the winter before last and was contemplating buying an old cherokee. Instead he fitted snow tyres to his Ford Focus estate and had no problems at all this winter. He has now bought a 52 Toyota Rav4 as well and recommends that choice- there seem to be a few around for your sort of money. As has been pointed out very few locals In France drive 4x4s and they seem to get about just fine (Renault 4 vans seemed to be unstoppable). You will need chains of course.
I'm a real fan of 4x4s and like the higher driving position, enhance protection (in a crash the laws of physics work in your favour, although maybe not prior to the crash) but unless you want the extra space (not always as much as you expect for what can be big cars) my suggestion would be to stick with the Ford and keep the money for ski gear or ready for next season!
Ref insurance, family in france have always had good service from Axa, but I think you'll find it rather more expensive to insure a car in France than the UK. Maybe you could switch insurers a few times through the season, taking 30 days from each (I've no idea if that's legal or not!!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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we have a crv diesel and you will do well to get 40 out of it
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Insurance - I found it tricky to get cover for over 90 days on the continent with English plates. It's not worth the hassle of changing the plates unless you stay a couple of years. In the end I joined the Camping and Caravan Club (!) as I could get a year's cover through them.
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FAQ
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