 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Brimster, Welcome to Snowheads. 
A couple of years ago I was in the same position as you and decided to upgrade my skis to something wider, as I was doing more and more off-piste. I still wanted something that would still perform well on piste as well as increasing the fun factor off-piste.
I went for a pair of Icelantic Pilgrims(179), mainly because they were offered on here at a good price.
They have done everything I expected of them and I wouldn't change them now. Might be worth trying a pair.
Whitedot do a good range of skis too, the Whitedot the One would be a similar ski and probably worth looking at. Both manufacturers do wider skis as well for a more off-piste bias.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Welcome Brimster.
Sounds like a technique opportunity to me. In fact its probably best to go with the development play first before the hardware purchase.
Moguls, and Steep off piste/powder are different diciplines, and each deserve time to perfect.
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Brimster,
I'd say moguls performance is more technique than ski.
For powder I'd say take a couple of offpiste lessons on much wider (possibly softer and longer) skis first. This enables you to ski at a slower speed and get used to the whole thing without sinking. Then when you have got the feel for it go back to your current skis and try it again.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks geepee - I have looked at the The One as I have noticed various people on here raving about Whitedot
Bob - I agree that my technique does have room for improvement however I'm not sure if I will improve much further without a ski that can help me along the way.
Prior to my Head skis I had a set of Atomic C9s which were fine at the time I bought them however as soon as I transferred over there was an instant and dramatic effect on my skiing and so this was my thinking of going to an all mountain ski.
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Breimster,
I kind of agree. Personally my approach has always been to use the HW that allows me to go to the next aspirational level. However the ski won't solve all problems alone.
Yes in my view all mountain skis do work extemely well. I'm using Atomic blackeye 164cm (probably slightly longer than recommended for some one who is 1.66m, 75kg), Works extremely well on just about everything. Infact my worry right now is that I'm not sure anything else (except the same again) is going to give me the same levels of versatility. Maybe the Crimson, Who knows.
And, Yes my Technique could use a little development.
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Just to say that Whitedot The One is nothing like Icelantics Pilgrim. I owned Pilgrims and sold them because they were too soft, I demoed The One and found it way too stiff for me, completely different skis.
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Brimster, demo some 90mm ish skis next time you're out and see how you feel. Where do you ski in Canada? Lots of people have fun and ski powder without great technique, so I wouldn't frogmarch you into lessons, but it does tend to be something that's much more fun when you're technically good at it - I'd go out on a limb and say it's probably similar causes that make moguls and ungroomed snow hard work.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If it was the other way round and someone was asking, "I am currently skiing a 120mm underfoot powder ski, however on hard pack I am finding it a bit tough, will a piste ski make any difference and allow me to have more fun?". People would be crazy to say that actually you would be better off just getting a couple of lessons and sticking with the powder ski.
However I do admit that you can ski powder with a piste ski and that technique is definitely going to be important and a powder ski won't do everything. Many times have I been thinking "if only I had a fatter ski this would be so much better", but then had to hush as other people in the group were managing on slalom race skis. But to answer one of your original questions Brimster I think that a ski more suited to powder would definitely make a noticeable difference, and will definitely make it more fun.
As you mention you are going to demo before buying then you can pretty much ignore my experiences listed below and just get out there and try some stuff to see what works for you and what you like. But here are my opinions:
As most of your skiing is in Canada then I would be careful not to be too cautious when scaling up from your piste ski. There are a lot of "All Mountain" skis out there that are really more focused towards pistes and can cope in the powder but won't instantly make it a joy. I skied Salomon Tornado's this season (79mm underfoot), and in the limited powder in Europe, with my poor powder technique, it did get a bit frustrating at times feeling that I really had to ski in the back seat just to stop the tips diving and digging in. The caveat with this advice is that I am pretty heavy (around 85kg) so depending on your weight the same width may give you way more float.
As for some stuff that may be suitable to demo. I rented the Salomon BBR's (I skied the 8.9) and while they definitely get mixed reviews, I found that for a recreational skier that is looking for a fun ski that can carve easily and hold an edge well on piste, but still has a massive shovel with rocker for float in the powder they fit the bill great. I think the negative of the big shovel small tail design is that it doesn't handle quite the same as a conventional powder ski, however there is no denying that those massive tips are going to give you all the help possible on the floatation front. All that being said I'm not sure I could really buy them, as they really are a love or hate thing on the looks front and I hate the surfboard look!
The new 2012 flipcore blizzard skis are getting some really positive reviews from some of the American users on epic ski:
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/102157/2012-blizzard-bonafide
http://www.epicski.com/products/2012-blizzard-black-pearl-ski/reviews/2014
As already discussed, Whitedot skis have a lot of support on here and rightly so, and are also worth looking at.
Here are a couple of threads on epic ski by a member who has put up his reviews on a whole load of skis so you can get a feel for the market and what is out there. Maybe have a skim and pick out some of the ones that sound like you might want to demo, starting in the 90mm ish range like DaveC suggested.
80-98mm underfoot "Mid Fat" Reviews: http://www.epicski.com/wiki/2011-mid-fat-ski-reviews-by-dawgcatching
98mm+ underfoot "Big Mountain" Reviews: http://www.epicski.com/wiki/2011-big-mountain-ski-reviews-by-dawgcatching
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Brimster, Length of ski is not the only factor as camber, whether there's a twin tip all have effect. My big skis are 190cm but have an effective edge of only about 100cm due to massive twin rocker. I could easily ski them in a 2m if necessary. Better to look at effective edge and at least consider a bit of tip rocker if you want to cheat in the powder.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 15-05-11 13:37; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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fatbob, Agreed, in non-3D snow my 190's ski smaller than my 176's.
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| Brimster wrote: |
I have a pair of Head Pure Love skis (163cm) |
Are you sure they're not K2 Pure Luv skis?
But in any case, my wife really likes Movement skis. They make some great all mountain skis that can still hold a really good edge on hardpack. When she went from her pure piste skis to Movement Spicys (82 mm wide, 163 long) she found them much more confidence inspiring in powder and soft chopped up pistes. Plus they still work really well on hardpack too.
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You know it makes sense.
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Brimster, The Pure Luvs are marketed as a starter ski. So...IMO...
- you probably want something that will allow your technique to develop
- they're only (I think, from what I can see online) 72mm underfoot. Now I am far from an advocate of wide skis, but that's almost as skinny as my race SLs. More like a kid's ski than anything else. So, at a minimum, I think you want to look closer to 80mm.
- you are a girl, right? as they are girlies skis. I'm not a big fan of gender specific skis, daft idea other than marketing. Don't worry about girls skis or not.
- Almost anything, as long as it's a bit fatter is going to make powder easier. Question: how often do you get deep powder in Quebec, 2nd question, how often can one expect deep powder in Europe when you happen to be there... So, you don't want to buy a pair of skis that are great in powder but that are actually harder to ski on piste. As I expetc you ski on piste more of the time
- obviously you will be limited - to a point - by what you can trial/hire - and by the conditions you encounter.
I'd suggest 85mm underfoot is about as fat as you want to go if it's your own ski.
Then again, if you're snatching sneaky European trips, don't buy, rent until you find something you love.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm kind of in the same position and was considering the 2011 ski of the year the Watea 84 but as I'm now signed up for the Early Season Bash I'm looking forward to trying out a few different skis (and trying my best not to look for bargains in the meantime).
Having said all that, when in Whistler this year the hire equipment looked good and allowed you to swap for the conditions each day. I'm considering whether it costs in to buy your own if there is a decent rental option (but I suppose if a bargain pops up I'll be suckered in)...
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Poster: A snowHead
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The Scott "Missions" (89mm underfoot) were the benchmark skis of that sort for the last few years and I reckon are still hard to beat. I ski mostly off piste but they carve very well on piste (nearer a slalom than a giant slalom ski so fine on moguls - as well as steep couloirs).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
| [- you are a girl, right? as they are girlies skis. I'm not a big fan of gender specific skis, daft idea other than marketing. Don't worry about girls skis or not. |
My wife tested girlie skies and non gender specific skis, she much preferred 'girlie' skis due to the fact they are much lighter. She is a very good skier, on and off piste.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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kitenski, fair enough, a question of taste. Does that mean she prefers girlie skis or light skis?
I still think gender specific skis are a poor idea. Skis don't know what sex you are.
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under a new name, Some of the women specific skis are constructed to have the binding mount slightly further forward to take into account a woman's different COM. Or we can tell the ski shop to mount the binding to compensate on a unisex model. I have some girly skis, Movement Black Rose and they are very nice indeed. I also use " mens" skis. I have also owned some "womens" skis that were absolute shyte, flappy and soft and were ebayed after 1 weeks use. Movement and Armada have been offering women performance equipment for a while now, and the mainstream mfrs are catching on to the fact that we don't all sit on the restaurant terrace after getting off the gondola.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snowbunny, nope. Marketing puff.
Firstly, If the only difference between a unspecific ski and a girlie ski is binding mounting advice, they're not really different, are they?
Anyway, the range of bodyshapes is so wide that the whole idea's daft. Can you imagine the conversation in the shop, "Lovely moobs sir, and you seem to have a quite a voluptuous butt. Would you prefer a girl's ski?"
Or worse, perhaps, "Crikey Madam, I thought you were a bloke."
Plus the effect on static COM is going to be massively overwhelmed by the technical control by the skier of dynamic COM. Individual adjustment of binding position may be warranted, but if so, a blanket fore/aft prescription would simply be obscured by individual adjustment.
And the general perception (and I can't easily with a 30s Googling find any good evidence for it) for females having lower COMs than males would suggest a shorter ski, not different construction nor binding position.
I have never skied a girls ski, but I suspect that they are simply lighter and softer to appeal to a (self?) perception of girls being less aggressive or (dare I say it) weaker.
My wife has never skied on girls skis and would be most affronted if you suggested she should.
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The only girl I know who has skied both the men's and women's version of the same ski (some high end Voelkl piste/all mountain ski) preferred the men's version - she said the women's were too soft and light, and didn't take crud/variable snow-bashing as well. Saying that, my gf loves her Voelkl Kikus (although they are the only ski of the type she has skied)... Not that a sample of two proves anything anyway.
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under a new name, Does your wife use Mens boots also?
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snowbunny, Lange don't do "girl's" race boots
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ They do do girls though 
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clarky999, oh yes indeedy.
Anyway, boots are a red herring. There are reasonably well defined reasons for a different calf shape between males and females. It may well be that there are female specific race boots with lower cuffs (there have been in the past). As it happens, she's been using Nordica's but will be back in Lange's next season.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Brimster wrote: |
Thanks geepee - I have looked at the The One as I have noticed various people on here raving about Whitedot
Bob - I agree that my technique does have room for improvement however I'm not sure if I will improve much further without a ski that can help me along the way.
Prior to my Head skis I had a set of Atomic C9s which were fine at the time I bought them however as soon as I transferred over there was an instant and dramatic effect on my skiing and so this was my thinking of going to an all mountain ski. |
Try not to fall for the marketing. Otherwise you will be buying new kit every year! (I hope flowa does not read this statement!)
But honestly lessons and some drills will definitely pay off in the long term.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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An all mountain ski will make off piste easier but in general off piste will punish the sort of skidded turn which you can get away with on piste. Light powder is more forgiving and a slightly different situation where I would have thought having a broader ski would make learning easier.
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You know it makes sense.
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under a new name, Obviously the graphics on women's specific skis are pure marketing - but then so are graphics on men's or unisex skis for that matter.
Now my wife weighs in at just over 50 kg, but she's a decent skier. For her, lighter ski construction and softer flex for a particular ski length are quite useful features and often found in women's specific ski models. Most high performance men's skis in the length she likes to ski (and that's the key part) are too stiff/heavy for her girlie weight. It's not a big deal in the overall scheme of things, but I don't see a problem in tweaking ski characteristics for women. Obviously if your wife happens to be an East European Olympic Shot Putter then men's skis might be more appropriate. What's your thoughts on junior skis? Marketing puff too for the same reasons?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Brimster, Sounds like not a great diagnosis on your knee although some specifics would help. Many of us have mashed knees one way or another and survived to ski ok either without rebuilding or post rebuilding. I'd push for a new round of diagnostics/MRI etc if I were you, unless I guess they were saying you've got early onset arthritis and its basically inoperable. IANAD.
Even then it sounds like you might be able to manage your situation by building really strong quads and hamstrings and working on technique. The ski is probably the last variable to consider although once you've fixed everything else (& personal bias here) a tip rockered ski wouldn't do you any harm off piste.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I wish I could give more info on my knee but no-one seems to know.
My arthroscopy in 2000 found and removed an excessive growth of my synovial sac hence the its sorted or you will grow out of it response.
Basically I can't sit for long periods of time without getting an aching pain in my knees (general pain all round the knee my right is worse than my left). Then when I exercise I get pain underneath my knee and swelling up and around the left hand side of my knee. I also can't even consider kneeling on a hard floor the pain is just immense!
When skiing and running I use a neoprene knee support just to try and help reduce the impact and it does help.
Recent x-ray and ultrasounds have shown I don't have any torn ligaments or anything anatomically wrong with my knee ie arthritis hence being sent for an intensive course of physio.
The physio has found a weak point under my kneecap and I am currently having to do a load of exercises to help build up my pattellar tendon and sartorius muscle and a ban on all exercise other than swimming for the minute.
Have I bored you yet.....?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
fatbob, but the castor of a wide ski might well be painful on piste...?
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[Learns new application of the word Castor - there was I thinking it was the genus name for the beaver family]
Yep that's also true- there is definitely some increased strain on knees with wider skis particularly if you try to ski them too traditionally or timidly. High edge angles definitely help along with a bit of speed to get them over. Tip rocker isn't exclusive to fat (over 110mm skis) though and in my limited experience may help although my jury is still out on how much is needed to be effective.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| under a new name wrote: |
uktrailmonster, why does your wife want extra length?
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That's what she's got used to with me 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Brimster,
If I can add my bit for what it's worth...I bought a fat set (123 width) last year and had so much fun.
Powder was far far more enjoyable and so much easier.
Piste was reasonable enough to the extent that I was never left behind
and because I had grown massively in confidence, the mid conditions, chopped up etc were again a breeze. I truly believe it would be less strain on knees
Definately go fat!!! In my view fat does all, piste skis dont
regards
Rich
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I would say get woman's all mountain skis. That is what I have had for the last few pairs - currently on Rossi Attraxion 5 but they now go up to a higher number. I'm on 163cm and find them great for all conditions that I want to ski. I can take them down bumps, carve on piste and they are fine in a bit of powder. I have skied longer, stiffer skis and that allows you to go faster but have deliberately gone shorter after wrecking my ACL going fast on 170+ and stopping quickly!! I do find women's skis better and have always had bindings slightly forward to what the manufacturer says. I wouldn't dream of using men's boots. I was once given a pair of 'girly' supposed prestige skis on a school trip I had organised. I thought I would use them for the week to save my own. They were soft and juddered at speed. I did one run and handed them back and had luckily brought my own just in case. I was also on hired skis one week last winter in Sweden. Again supposedly superior rentals but absolutely no reponse in them so really hard work.
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I would say try as many skis as you can, unisex, female, fat, skinny  I thought I didn't like women's ski after trying a few and comparing them to the unisex ski eg K2 Lotta Luv vs Recon. After playing about with mounting position I have now decided I don't like forward mounted skis and have bought a lovely pair of Women's specific Volkls which I mounted -1cm and which are great.
I find my fatter skis much less tiring to ski than skinnier skis on all but the very hardest snow days, I went back to skinnier skis (75mm) for a few days this year after skiing >90mm skis exclusively for a while and they were much harder work on anything but nicely groomed pistes. I would also agree with fatbob, that rocker really helps. I was skiing skis with rocker for the first time this year and they made it all seem very effortless. I never got the chance to ski them in proper powder but the sort of cut up slushy bumps and refrozen skied out stuff I was skiing was so much easier, I know I would have been falling over skiing it last year. FWIW I'm skiing Rossi S3s which to me make everything much easier to ski that I sometimes wonder if they don't make it too easy.....
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FAQ
However when it comes to any sort of powder I really start to struggle on them, I know some of it is my technique, and no matter what I do I cannot seem to float over it or push myself through it as the skis don't seem to respond well.
