 Poster: A snowHead
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leedsunited, there was nothing signed with regards to commission, our commission details were told to us verbally, and the lift pass commission details were told to us in an email. Commission details were always vague and we (the employee) had to specifically ask about it to get information regarding it.
I'll send an email out today to see what can be done...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Timmaah, If it was me i would in the first instance ask them to set out exactly upon what basis they are clawing back the commision, be polite and ask nicely and say you do not understand how they have come to this decision. Once you have their side you can start to establish where it may or may not have gone wrong. If you are confident that your colleagues are not on the pinch then it is my bet is that it is an admin error as most of these things are.
Keep us updated.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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mmm I agree that they can't, under UK employment law, take deductions from your pay for whatever reasons (as previously stated by others) however, I think that at the end of the day the commission would be viewed as discretionary and therefore if they use their discretion not to pay any so be it... true it's not morally right .. but could be within their legal rights to do so.
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marcellus, Not arguing the deduction from pay, doing that they are on sticky ground - commision different ball game unfortunately 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Has the company actually proven that these passes were lost, it wouldn't be the first company to tell staff that losses had occurred so no bonuses could be paid.
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| marcellus wrote: |
| mmm I agree that they can't, under UK employment law, take deductions from your pay for whatever reasons (as previously stated by others) however, I think that at the end of the day the commission would be viewed as discretionary and therefore if they use their discretion not to pay any so be it... true it's not morally right .. but could be within their legal rights to do so. |
ERA 1996 s.27 states:
"Wages" includes any fee, bonus, commission, holiday pay or other emolument referable to his employment, whether payable under his contract or otherwise.
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Mr Marmot, What the law says and what is reality when it comes to commision are two very different things, i am not saying it is correct but i do know through many years of experience that it is very easy to move the goal posts on the plan, for example increase the target or change the objective, can be done at any time and therefore negating the need to pay any commision. As posted earlier "commision plans are discretionary and normally fall outside of an employees contract of employment" and although in structure they should be fair and achievable from a contractual perspective they are weighted very heavily in favour of the employer.
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Right, well the commission payments have been delayed until mid-June at any case... I was told to check back in a couple weeks to get more information on the situation regarding lift passes... So guess need to wait until then really. Thanks for the input people!
Mr Marmot, not sure if it holds any merit but the contract states that I allow, despite the ERA, them to deduct any wages, commission, bonus etc. if the company incurred losses due to my (singular) negligence.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Timmaah,
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Mr Marmot, not sure if it holds any merit but the contract states that I allow, despite the ERA, them to deduct any wages, commission, bonus etc. if the company incurred losses due to my (singular) negligence.
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Hence my earlier point re claw back, i have a draw full of commision plans from over the years and it is a pretty standard inclusion, good luck and keep us posted.
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| leedsunited wrote: |
| Mr Marmot, What the law says and what is reality when it comes to commision are two very different things, i am not saying it is correct but i do know through many years of experience that it is very easy to move the goal posts on the plan, for example increase the target or change the objective, can be done at any time and therefore negating the need to pay any commision. As posted earlier "commision plans are discretionary and normally fall outside of an employees contract of employment" and although in structure they should be fair and achievable from a contractual perspective they are weighted very heavily in favour of the employer. |
I think what you are talking about by 'commission plan' is a contract where the employee has agreed to give up his rights under the ERA in respect of commission payments.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| .............Mr Marmot, not sure if it holds any merit but the contract states that I allow, despite the ERA, them to deduct any wages, commission, bonus etc. if the company incurred losses due to my (singular) negligence. |
Well it seems the argument now comes down to if losses were incurred, and then whether they were due to your (singular) negligence.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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what exactly do the commission rules say. what exactly does your contract say. raise a grievance as you are required to do before progressing further. Set out your case clearly. would be surprised if you are being paid commission on a team target, if team losses don't get taken in to account
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You are guessing, based on incomplete info.
Step 1 = Get the company to state, in writing, precisely how much, when, where, who, why and how the alleged loss was made. Request a structured, formal, precise, chronological timeline of events. Must all be 100% written down on paper or official email. Not a phonecall or a chat.
Step 2 = Review their evidence and proof in a few days / weeks. Decide on next steps after receving this extra info.
However, tbh, it's barely worth the time and effort for a 150'ish bux.
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You know it makes sense.
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Whitegold is right. OMG, did I just say that? 
(But remember to ask nicely - don't go in with all guns blazing at the outset.)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
it's barely worth the time and effort for a 150'ish bux.
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That depends on how much you've got and what else you're doing with your time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Whitegold, as posted earlier
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Timmaah, If it was me i would in the first instance ask them to set out exactly upon what basis they are clawing back the commision, be polite and ask nicely and say you do not understand how they have come to this decision. Once you have their side you can start to establish where it may or may not have gone wrong. If you are confident that your colleagues are not on the pinch then it is my bet is that it is an admin error as most of these things are.
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Mr Marmot,
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I think what you are talking about by 'commission plan' is a contract where the employee has agreed to give up his rights under the ERA in respect of commission payments.
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Commision plans (call them a contract if you so wish) are almost always seperate from the employees main contract of employment and are in there design at the discretion of the company, the company can generally withdraw them or amend at anytime although in all my years i have not had them cancelled but i have had to initiate claw back for varying reasons on numerous occasions.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Right!
So I've got my payslip but haven't been paid yet. Phoned them up, should have it on Monday.. a week late. One of my bonuses hasn't been paid either, and all commission has been "finalised" and is due in June... The person responsible didn't give me any figures, rather informed me that I had to take it up with head office. So! More news on Monday....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Timmaah, if they are paying you late, refusing to discuss wages or comissions, and somewhat dodgily "dissapearing" a large chunk of your comission in the last week, is there any chance that they can't afford to pay this? Are they having financial problems which weren't discussed with you in resort? Is there anything on google about this happening in other resorts/with other people if you search for the company name?
Good luck with the chasing!!
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Snow and Sunshine, sounds like typical big-TO behaviour to me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Some people have been paid, some haven't (I've been paid).
Edit: I was a different job role and so bonuses are different. Seems there has been some sort of delay in paying some memners of staff.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 14-05-11 16:15; edited 1 time in total
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Timmaah,
I've read through the entire post so far and in summary the advice given suggesting you just move on may prove to be your best bet: I dislike unfairness and you seem fairly certain that you are being short-changed so I gritted my teeth and read on.
I suggest you take a deep breath, step back and put yourself in a detached mode re-read the entire item. In order to succeed in any argument you need to provide a very clear and logical audit trail. So far you have not achieved this requirement: 
In short, my understanding of your presentation is you “seem” to confirm that items have apparently been sold from a stock/inventory for which the funds received from customers have not been paid to your employer. The lift passes in this context seem to be a red-herring unless no actual loss occurred. If you agree with all or part of that summary then I’d strongly suggest you refine your argument, write it down step by step, then using a copy, cross out anything that doesn’t make a logical contribution to you case; such as opinions, feelings, or other strictly irrelevant detail. It may be a good thing to repeat this process with you contract, separating defined, vague and completely undefined into three categories. Your rights and responsibilities may become clearer.
On the other hand, if money has disappeared it would be far more appropriate for the employer to report the theft to the local Police and then lodge a claim against their insurers. The details regarding responsibility etc should be well defined, otherwise without adequate systems, potentially there would be (another ) argument for contributory negligence.
One last point, you’ve indicated that all of your conclusions are built upon hearsay, not upon facts. You seem to have a vague, ill defined contract and critically any payments that may or may not emerge haven’t actually happened yet and in your own words (your postings aside), nothing has actually been written from an attributed source. On that basis you seem to be preparing badly for an argument that may not even happen. I do sympathise if you do end up out of pocket through no fault of your own, but unless you refine your focus and strategy and get the facts lined up in the right order, things will not improve.
When you do get your final pay slip, please let us know all know what you end up arguing for, if anything: 
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I got paid today, as did the others who weren't paid. Still.. almost a week late, not really good enough. Anyhow, I phoned them up today to find out the amounts and they didn't really want to discuss it with me on the phone and told me to just email them. The thing is.. They never answer any of the emails with regards to payroll, even during the course of the season. I only got responses from them when I CC'd the general and/or resort manager.
So I guess I just need to keep phoning/emailing.. Let's see how this pans out...
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Timmaah, what do you mean "find out the amounts"? you;ve got your payslip - are the amounts not on there?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sorry for being confusing..
I got paid half of my bonus, my commitment bond, holiday pay and my wages. I am *still* awaiting the other half of my bonus and my commission, which is due mid-June.
The other people who were not paid their last months wages, commitment bond and holiday pay have now been paid. No commission from my resort, or another resort, whose Rep I know, has been paid.
holidayloverxx, I've got my payslip for this month which did NOT include my commission or half of my bonus. So I'm trying to figure out how much I am due to be paid next month to see if it adds up.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Timmaah, I see.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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This is all starting to get a bit confusing now is it... Spoke to our admin guy and got an update:
Two of the lift passes which were unaccounted was due to an error on behalf of the lift pass office. So now it's 8 passes... which means its ~€255 each rather than ~€333 each. Which I guess is better news...
The admin person only found out the day before he was leaving resort and the day the office had been handed over, which is disappointing because it means he never really had an opportunity to figure it out.
Hoping to get a response from head office soon...
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Right.. quick update:
Today was the day I was meant to get paid. I did not get paid. My area manager informed me that he had sent off the numbers to payroll (did not want to tell me what those numbers were), but payroll informed me that he had not signed them off. This was a couple of weeks ago. The situation seems to be the exact same now... I gave payroll a phone call and they said they were still waiting for the numbers.
I had a look and they're already discounting all of their holidays, except half-term... Cashflow issue? Or just poor communication between managers and payroll?
Either way... I'll give them another week before contacting them again....
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You know it makes sense.
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Timmaah, Discoounting? Is this the normal "early bird" saving or something more problematic????? Hope you get sorted!
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