 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I actually think it is still a really interesting debate.... 
Seriously though....I have just started skiing off piste, and am considering buying a helmet, specifically cos of rocks.
This year I was doing some itineries in Zermatt, and although the moguls are fun, was practicing some of the (slightly) less tracked out ground down the sides. All good fun, and as I gained confidence and added speed, I caught an edge and face planted (I have amazing balance).
Point is, it was pretty rocky in places, and a lot of the little rock bands were craftily hidden behind bumps of snow and suchlike, left me thinking I could have hit one with my head.
Having said this, if I face planted a rock I would prob need one of those MX style helmets you see the pros wearing.....imagine how cool I would look, esp when people saw my skiing 
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| Quote: |
The odds are that riding the motor cycle is safer than skiing, perhaps quite a lot safer.
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Data to support such statement please.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abc, Same knowledge bank as
| abc wrote: |
| I think most missed the point of the article, which is falls with head touching the ground is simply VERY, VERY rare! I'd say about as rare as falling in the bathtub. |
My post could have been prefaced with IMHO or I think but I've given credit to allow those of average intelligence to insert that for themselves. Having said that the debate is about helmets and choice. Whether an injury is prevented/reduced or not thru the wearing of a helmet is (IMO) more relevant than if you hit the ground, a rock or another skier : Ergo it's the impact that counts, not the ground.
AND for good measure, one of my "smacks" did involve a ski binding getting hooked into a "claw" shaped ice lump which resulted in a 90 degree arc for my body with the head hitting the ground last and very hard. I was thankful that the helmet prevented further trauma. Guess that blows the "rare as falling in the bathtub theory" out of the snowdome.
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| abc wrote: |
| Quote: |
The odds are that riding the motor cycle is safer than skiing, perhaps quite a lot safer.
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Data to support such statement please. |
not many skiers i know have body parts missing. however a few bikers i know have. i have no data to support what i say apart from the people i know
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mugen, 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| mugen wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| Quote: |
The odds are that riding the motor cycle is safer than skiing, perhaps quite a lot safer.
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Data to support such statement please. |
not many skiers i know have body parts missing. however a few bikers i know have. i have no data to support what i say apart from the people i know |
Same experience I have. Hence my puzzle at the above statement of "motor cycle is safer than skiing"
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abc,
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| Same experience I have. Hence my puzzle at the above statement of "motor cycle is safer than skiing" |
If you are puzzled by the statement then you clearly must be arguing in favour of helmet wearing as you seem to agree that motor cycling is inherently safer than skiing?
Motor cycling is statistically sufficiently dangerous to warrant a mandatory requirement for helmet wearing -whether you or I agree that this is fair/right is rather beside the point. The logic behind that is potentially to protect riders from themselves and perhaps more importantly from a strategy perspective to protect the public purse.
Equation: If danger = 1 = Wear Helmet or if danger = 0 = No Helmet.
(from above) Motor cycling = 1, but is less than skiing, so skiing = >1.
So motorcycling is = or < dangerous than skiing but requires a helmet so therefore it's "logical" as skiing is more dangerous to expect helmets to be a mandatory requirement.
Personally I think you've argued that point rather well, but even though I'd agree with you that helmets are a really good idea, I think everyone, no matter how intellectually challenged they are, should ultimately have a choice, even though we'd still disagree with them:
You never know, skiing could become the new euthanasia 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| harrisontherabbit wrote: |
| Doesn't really consider non-fatal head injuries, does it? |
I was thinking that too. It's the relatively minor injuries that helmets can prevent eg. nasty cuts and bumps that might mess up your hair |
hmmm think without mine it would have been a hell of a whack and if nothing else as someone who is over 6 foot tall it save me all those lift bumps
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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dan100,
| Quote: |
| if nothing else as someone who is over 6 foot tall it save me all those lift bumps |
Good point. I'd overlooked that old chestnut
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You know it makes sense.
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abc, You've been the victim of multiple quote in quote misattribution I fear. Neverthless I'm sure someone could conjure up some data, perhaps in falls per participant mile that motorcycling is safer than skiing.
Decent analogues might be if you behave like a dick at either you enhance your chances of traumatic accident and that in either external factors can still precipitate accidents no matter how careful you are e.g. diesel spills, rocks just under surface.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have no data to hand, but my intuition tells me that riding a motorbike is a feck sight more dangerous than recreational skiing. The speeds are much higher and the ground is much harder. Not to mention all the large heavy moving objects you can potentially collide with. Hence I suspect why motorbike helmets are much more substantial.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Jivebaby wrote: |
leedssteve, I wore a Giro 9 helmet with Oakley A Frames. I have no idea what happened, whether I fell off the lift, veered of the club slalmon run or if I was taken out from behind. No idea as the 15mins amnesia either side of the trauma resulted in a complete memory wipe of what happened.
My "A" frame lenses were cracked both inside and out.
My right eye was badly swollen to the size of a purple/bruised golf-ball and this is despite the goggles (and my head) being protected by 25mm of safety helmet.
The critical question/calculation would be without the 25mm of helmet in place, how much more damage would have occurred to my eye/s and head? Your may well care to factor in the +/- 15 mins traumatic amnesia either side of the event, together with the fact that I had concussion, slipping in/out of consciousness in the ambulance an hour of so later. I also fractured/chipped my shoulder : - 
I’m smiling as I type this as opportunity for humour on the shoulder chip is way past the sell-by-date, but I’m sure someone can invent a new line which hasn’t been said before!  If so, can the author please start a new thread so the less intelligent readers don't get distracted? 
Edit/add: The full face looks like a great protective solution but I do like some freedom, so prefer to save the full face helmets for motor sports. |
Yeah, this is the kind of thing I am thinking about..... 
TBH I had already made the decision really, as a few people have said - prob as much to reduce the extent of non fatal head injuries as to protect against fatals.
Good story too!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My son is alive and skiing because he was wearing a helmet when he fell in a hole, I fell on top of him and slid over him cracking his helmet with my skis. It was just the angle needed to take the top off an egg, and hard enough to cause serious whiplash. The Grandad staying in the room next to us on the following holiday is dead because he left his helmet at home, a simple fall on a board on the nursery slope, but he didn't wake up the next morning after bleeding in the brain.
I think the guy I watched last Friday must be dead, helmet or not, after he jumped off a 60ft face and got it wrong on the first turn, last thing I saw he had bounced off rocks and was in freefall head first with another 20ft to go. I don't think a helmet makes much difference in extreme falls like this, but it certainly made all the difference in two simple falls for my son and a Grandad.
I forgot to pack my son's helmet last week, we bought him a new helmet just for the holiday week when we got there, no way was he skiing without, a personal choice, but the only choice for me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Jane L wrote: |
My son is alive and skiing because he was wearing a helmet when he fell in a hole, I fell on top of him and slid over him cracking his helmet with my skis. It was just the angle needed to take the top off an egg, and hard enough to cause serious whiplash. The Grandad staying in the room next to us on the following holiday is dead because he left his helmet at home, a simple fall on a board on the nursery slope, but he didn't wake up the next morning after bleeding in the brain.
I think the guy I watched last Friday must be dead, helmet or not, after he jumped off a 60ft face and got it wrong on the first turn, last thing I saw he had bounced off rocks and was in freefall head first with another 20ft to go. I don't think a helmet makes much difference in extreme falls like this, but it certainly made all the difference in two simple falls for my son and a Grandad.
I forgot to pack my son's helmet last week, we bought him a new helmet just for the holiday week when we got there, no way was he skiing without, a personal choice, but the only choice for me. |
your not the luckiest bloke to know are you
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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mugen, certainly an unlucky bloke to be named Jane - school must've been difficult.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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maybe for my son I am though 
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Just for info I never wear a helmet although I have been knocked unconscious a number of times whilst skiing. A helmet is just not something I feel necessary, IMO a helmet is only going to make minor crashes even more minor. I would deem an avalanche airbag a far more important piece of equipment. Most of my skiing is off-piste which I also think is far safer, If I were to only ski on piste then I would most likely wear a helmet to try and prevent the damage that the human canon-balls inexperienced skiers wearing helmets seem to have turned themselves into. Before helmet wearing was popular I believe more people were in control on the slopes as you cannot help but feel safer when wearing a helmet - it also reduces your sense of speed and danger leading to the out of control canon-ball.
That is all 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| mugen, certainly an unlucky bloke to be named Jane - school must've been difficult. |
told you least wasn't a boy named sue
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| HenryL wrote: |
Just for info I never wear a helmet although I have been knocked unconscious a number of times whilst skiing. A helmet is just not something I feel necessary, IMO a helmet is only going to make minor crashes even more minor. I would deem an avalanche airbag a far more important piece of equipment. Most of my skiing is off-piste which I also think is far safer, If I were to only ski on piste then I would most likely wear a helmet to try and prevent the damage that the human canon-balls inexperienced skiers wearing helmets seem to have turned themselves into. Before helmet wearing was popular I believe more people were in control on the slopes as you cannot help but feel safer when wearing a helmet - it also reduces your sense of speed and danger leading to the out of control canon-ball.
That is all |
you sir are an idiot!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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mugen,
| Quote: |
| you sir are an idiot!! |
I've just re-ead the quote that you refer to: You appear to have bashed the nail firmly on the head: 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
You appear to have bashed the nail firmly on the head:
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With his Helmet ? What's the increased level of upper body injury related to helmet wearers ( human cannon balls )
That said, having tried Youla and the Hellbronner as the first time off piste I felt pretty exposed. I'm now looking for a suitable lid. If only to attach a camera to
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| Quote: |
What's the increased level of upper body injury related to helmet wearers ( human cannon balls )
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Why on earth would there be an increase in upper body injuries from wearing a helmet?! Are you one of these strange people who thinks that due to protecting your head with a helmet you think the rest of your body is better protected too? You've clearly either never worn a helmet or are headed for a Darwin award.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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helmets come in handy when you lift your skis onto your shoulder, swing round and whack your wife round the bonce !! she was glad she was wearing a helmet then....and so was I when the "clip round the ear" followed !!! LOL
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have started to change my mind on the helmet issue, since wearing one I have become increasingly bald...will have to stop to save the little mohican (or brazilian as my brother calls it) that is left.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PsychoBabble, Have you thought of wearing a syrup with a built in helmet and high forehead -
http://www.fpusadailyplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Herman_Munster.jpg It's very clear that Herman is wearing one of the first known ski helmets under his make-up!
Not only would your brains look enormous, no other skier would dare come near you!
Wearing the headgear fulltime, apart from the obvious safety benefits would also allow you to reduce barber/grooming costs. Money saved here could be used to pay for helmet polishing if required or you could D.I.Y?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Helmet debates allways seem to get a bit silly and I try to avoid posting on them nowadays.
I am a slightly reluctant helmet wearer having bowed to family and peer pressure though I find them a bit of a pain to lug around.
It does strike me that people sometimes overestimate the risks to skiing and therefore the likely benefits of wearing helmets and calling it Darwinian or saying that skiing is more dangerous than motorcycling is getting a little silly and is not borne out by the evidence.
According to the ski injury website several studies have put the mortality due to skiing accidents at 0.7 deaths per million visits, a really very low figure. To put this into perspective as a car driver or passenger on British roads the mortality is approx 5.2 per billion kilometers, and British roads are some of the safest there are.
If one was to spend the approx six hours of each skiing day driving instead of skiing at sixty kilometers an hour one would cover approx 504 million kilometers for each skiing death which would represent about 2.6 road deaths ie driving is over twice as likely to reult in your being killed as skiing. Riding a motorbike is approx 50 times more dangerous than driving ie over 100 times more dangerous than skiing.
If I was being Darwininian in my attitude to survival rather than a follower of fashion I would be wearing my helmet in my car rather than on the slopes especially as I drive far more in a year than I ski.
From personal observation and reports the numbers of skiers wearing helmets in Austria has increased dramatically recently yet according to the press this has been the worst year for skier fatalities. This rather suggests that the problem lies in skier behaviour rather than what they are wearing.
Clearly any statistic like those above relate to large populations and within those there are many with very different risks, just as mortality from driving is very much higher amongst young men who have recently passed their test or sometimes not passed it, so mortality amongst skiers may be far higher in some groups such as those attempting to do park tricks or huck big drops or ski extreme slopes. Helmets may well be more adviseable in some than others but for those like me who potter around at moderate speeds on pistes and the more gentle off piste slopes not wearing a helmet is hardly an irrational or death defying act.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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T Bar,
| Quote: |
| Helmet debates always seem to get a bit silly and I try to avoid posting on them nowadays. |
Good idea.
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If one was to spend the approx six hours of each skiing day driving instead of skiing at sixty kilometres an hour one would cover approx 504 million kilometres for each skiing death which would represent about 2.6 road deaths i.e. driving is over twice as likely to result in your being killed as skiing
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I do numbers: Your arithmetic is badly flawed as is the logic: If you average 60Kph on piste ( a very high average) this would equate to around 15kph average on a good day due to coffee, lift queues, (lack of) speed of lifts and a quaint habit of stopping for lunch. My best guess drawn from driving is that despite driving briskly, my average, at least in the UK is usually around 30% of my top speed and that doesn't include snacks, toilet breaks etc, or the skiing equivalents. I'd guess 10kph average would be hard to achieve on most active days, so I'd humbly suggest you divide your conclusion by a minimum factor of six. Just calculate how far you actually ski and do the maths. The benchmark that against the mean.
I need to remind you of your conclusion that posting on helmet debates is not a good idea. So far that’s twice I’ve agreed with you. If you multiply that by your 600% margin of error that equals 12 times that I’ve agreed with you so far. On that basis you’ve proved that driving is at least 300% more dangerous than skiing. Have you thought of working as an expenses clerk for your local M.P. ?
Next,
| Quote: |
| From personal observation and reports the numbers of skiers wearing helmets in Austria has increased dramatically recently yet according to the press this has been the worst year for skier fatalities. This rather suggests that the problem lies in skier behaviour rather than what they are wearing. |
This season has been one of the worst snow covering for Austria, and for that matter in ten years...probably more. IM(-H)O the skier fatalities have a much higher correlation with the lack of snow/surplus of rocks and other hard abrasive surfaces than skier behaviour. I do agree that skier behaviour, ergo not skiing in Sh***y conditions might have been more sensible, but sadly wearing a helmet doesn’t ingrain common sense, it merely suggests that it may be present!
Lastly, The reference to different risk and driving speeds: Even the UK stats refer to the fact that accidents are not caused by speed but they are critically a contributing factor increasing the mortality factor in the event of a collision. In skiing terms, Austria amongst others is often recommended by Snowhead members as an “affordable” place to ski. Presumably this relative value (every little helps) encourages a greater density of skier per m2 of piste than say Zermatt where the average SH (oxymoron) would kill to ski, is perhaps “safer” due to the fact that it costs twice as much to ski there and thus is maybe safer as skiers have twice the space to avoid fatal collisions?
Conclusion,The wearing of helmets isn’t really decided by arguments, statistics or even common sense. Many SH’s are polarised by the Helmet argument/debate with few standing precariously in the middle. Even those that argue heartily against the concept wearing of helmets usually begrudgingly concede that in the event of a collision (person/skier/rock/lift/piste/ etc) it is more likely to be beneficial to be wearing a helmet than to just bash something with your head. On that basis, I personally choose to wear a helmet as personal experience has already taught me that repeating past events without one would likely shorten my life or curtail my pleasure of it. I would quite understand if those hoping to inherit from me, plead that I ski without a helmet!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^^ Apart from your conclusion, that's some VERY loose maths and reasoning there dude.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Jivebaby,
| Quote: |
I do numbers: Your arithmetic is badly flawed as is the logic: If you average 60Kph on piste ( a very high average) this would equate to around 15kph average on a good day due to coffee, lift queues, (lack of) speed of lifts and a quaint habit of stopping for lunch. My best guess drawn from driving is that despite driving briskly, my average, at least in the UK is usually around 30% of my top speed and that doesn't include snacks, toilet breaks etc, or the skiing equivalents. I'd guess 10kph average would be hard to achieve most active days, so I'd humbly suggest you divide your conclusion by a minimum factor of six.
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You misunderstood my post; as drivers are quoted in deaths per billion kilometers and skiers in deaths per visit in order to get a comparable statistic I was estimating the distance that one would drive in the time used in a skiing day and choosing a relatively modest figure of 60kph as a driving speed not a skiing one.
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T Bar, mmmm...
| Quote: |
0.7 deaths per million visits, a really very low figure. To put this into perspective as a car driver or passenger on British roads the mortality is approx 5.2 per billion kilometers, and British roads are some of the safest there are. If one was to spend the approx six hours of each skiing day driving instead of skiing at sixty kilometers an hour one would cover approx 504 million kilometers for each skiing death which would represent about 2.6 road deaths ie driving is over twice as likely to reult in your being killed as skiing. Riding a motorbike is approx 50 times more dangerous than driving ie over 100 times more dangerous than skiing.
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I've re-read your post and see that there is indeed a lot to be confused by, both in terms or numbers and text. Maybe you can clarify and re-order what you are trying to say so that a mere mortal like me can make some sense of it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jivebaby,
To be more long winded:
If there is a death rate of 0.7 per million skier visits that equates to one death every 1.4 million visits, assuming a skiing day is six hours that is one death per 8.4 million skier hours.
If one was to drive at 60kph on average for 8.4 million hours one would cover 504 million kilometers. (half a billion) If the mortalitly on the roads is 5.2 drivers per billion kilometers(DOT statistics and fairly robust) in the time spent to get one skiing death if you spent it driving there would be approx 2.6 deaths.
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T Bar, I see what you mean now that the statement has been clarified. I no longer dispute your maths even though I puzzle at the logic:
The cook islands have a road mortality rate 20% than Afghanistan which probably means that a coach went over a cliff rather than providing a meaningful statistic. Translated = the stats may be 100% right, but what relevance do they have ultimately have in relation to the wearing of a ski helmet?
We can both argue numbers to infinity, however that part of the debate is a red herring. For me it's simply about life, potentially the quality of life or lack of it and/or death.
Having driven in many parts of Africa with similar Afghan-lie statistics, combined with relevant and relative experience I conclude that road deaths (wars zones apart) are more down to a combination of poor driver expertise, spatial awareness, vehicle condition and sometime the weather than bad roads: All of which is misleading: In reality better drivers (in Africa at least, slow down more to cope with bad conditions than those that drive on in a Mr Magoo like manner (which is much more common in the EU), oblivious to conditions and accompanying perils. I know this is subjective, but skiers who are in broader terms more aware of the wider risk dynamics, are on the whole more receptive/more likely to wear a helmet to mitigate risk than those those skiers who skill sets are so highly developed that they do not wish to suffer the extensive weight, aerodynamic or sartorial penalties the wearing of a helmet incurs.
Translated statement= What you’ve basically said above in numerical terms is that sky diving whilst eating a Mars bar is dangerous;
The statement conveniently overlooks the reality that sky diving is itself dangerous (as is skiing), not the eating of Mars Bar (or wearing of helmets). Eating a Mars bar on the ground is a lot safer (my statement, no proof or supporting stats), ergo it’s not helmets that make skiing potentially dangerous –it already is. A helmet is merely a convenient tool to achieve risk mitigation, in the same manner that using skis is easier and possibly safer than simply cart-wheeling down the mountain. Once again I have no way of verifying these suppositions.
It is statistically safer to wear an appropriate helmet whether skiing, walking or for that matter sky diving. Logically if you accept that statement (difficult not to) then it would be reasonable to conclude that a pedestrian eating a Mars Bar whilst wearing a helmet is statistically safer than a non-helmeted MBE (Mars Bar Eater – another mystery solved). Thankfully common sense and honesty, at least in this instance should intervene to reassure that it actually makes no difference as it’s not relevant, inasmuch as there is no significant correlation between wearing a helmet AND whilst eating a Mars Bar.
I am however becoming slowly convinced that the luddites who choose not to wear a helmet for, IMO very flimsy reasons &/or statistics are more likely to become one of your actual statistics than a helmet wearer. Using that logic, I believe my chances of surviving each run improve exponentially (v non-wearers) so I will continue wearing my helmet.
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FAQ
Aplogies for being OT 
