Dynafit ST touring binding mounting problem.

A snowHead

I've put a longer version of this whine on WildSnow but was also hoping for help here.

Got one of the large retailers in London to mount my mail-order Dynafit STs to some KT Backups. Proceeded to have alot of scary early releases, seemingly from the toe. Shop in Chamonix told me they had been wrongly mounted, gaps at back too big, and pins on one not lining up with slots in boot.

EB (for it was they) claim they mounted them perfectly and there is “something” wrong with the bindings.
My question is, if the gaps are too big and the pins don't line up with the slots on one, they really shouldn't have handed them to me, should they?

My understanding is that the pins not lining up with the slots is crucial. Is this correct???

I have to go in to be shown how perfectly they drilled the holes. They seem to agree there is a problem but want to blame the bindings not the fitting. (Surely either way they shouldn't have handed them to me???).

Anyway, any help/advice appreciated.

Many thanks.

AnticMark.

A snowHead

anticmark, Mate, this is a common problem and yes it's tricky to get right, but that's why you pay a professional, no? It can, I'm sure it can be recovered, inserts will probably be needed, but having done plenty of this and luckily at the start, not yet made this mistake, it's a simple one to make. It's the fault of the person fitting them, end of. It's in the fitting instructions, mounting the rear piece first etc, etc.
Hope you'll get it sorted, we be interested to hear how they approach it.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

anticmark, Ah, you we're in Cham............shame you didn't swing by.

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anticmark, my understanding is that the gap at the back of the binding should be 4mm (SMALLZOOKEEPER might be able to confirm or deny). So you can do that as a simple check.

It's probably worth asking EB whether they have and used a jig to mount the bindings, or whether it was done by hand/eye. Dynafit bindings are notoriously difficult to mount without a jig.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Gap is 6mm for older ST/FT's/Comforts, 5.5mm for new ones, 4 mm for the TLT Speeds.

Why the difference, well the Speeds have shorter pins. If this gap is not more or less correct (lets say +- 0.5mm) you risk pre-releases from the heel as the ski flexes or even "insta"-telemark mode. The rear pins should "more or less" line up with the boot lugs, it is hard to get this 100% even with jigs as the front lugs in the boots are often not 100% but we are talking a few 0.1s of a mm nothing more.

Dynafit bindings are fairly easy to fit at home, even without a jig, so a shop making a balls up is disgraceful really.

http://youtube.com/v/02giSvIXAvE

Maybe you could post photos? Did you check the boots? There have been a few cases of the lugs not being aligned correctly.

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The gap at the back is so critical that Lou has done a whole page on it:
http://www.wildsnow.com/2599/dynafit-tech-heel-space-shim-gauge/

Note that different models require different gaps.

Also note that not all boots are straight! Without your feet in them I suggest you try first one boot and then the other in the binding toe. Do both heels always fall to the same side? In any case, I wouldn't worry about an offset of up to perhaps 3mm 'cos it seems to make little difference and you'll easily generate that much distortion trying to put them on on an awkward slope.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Very many many thanks for very helpful posts. Have uploaded a few photos for perusal. Am going tonight to talk to them and will report back result.

anticmark.

After all it is free

ok that's a pretty big difference:

I'll go and take some photos of my setup for comparison.

There are 5 areas to check:

1. front toe piece, is it mounted on the center line, you can check this with a vernier or even a ruler
2. front toe lugs, are they fitted correctly, hard to check
3. read lug, is it central?
4. rear binding, is it fitted on the center line, check like the front
5. rear pins, are they straight? compare with the other binding using a vernier or ruler

For me it is not clear cut, yet, that this is a mounting problem although that is the most likely suspect.

On the face of it I would say that the toe piece is incorrectly mounted.

Ok here is the one fitted in the video above

as you can see it is not exactly hard to get them aligned, even without a jig.

and this is one done in a shop, the black tide marks on the pins show how much the boot moves when the ski flexes, it is not huge so the rear gap doesn't have to be precise to 0.1mm!... 0.5mm will do. The main problem is if the gap is too small the boot will catch on the heel unit when climbing or skiing which in the latter case, could cause a pre-release.

Is there a bit difference between the two sides?
what if you swap boots? (this should eliminate boot problems)?
what if you swap the heel pieces?

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

in my limited experience of these things, even if you get drilling the holes right, you do need to be careful when screwing in the screws and constantly check that everything lines up before you let the epoxy (or whatever other sealant you are using) set
that much misalignment is totally possible if you drill the holes right but don't take care when doing the screws

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Thank you again.

Annoyingly of course, I don't have the equipment in front of me - it's at the shop, so Davidoff:

1. Don't know, will look tonight.
2. They “look” alright.
3. See photos - certainly “look” central to me.

4. Ditto 1.
5. From memory, at least one rear pin not straight. I had presumed this was caused by being forced into non-aligned lug on boot. ??? (For life of me can't remember if they were straight before use).

BTW I think they mentioned using a jig to put them on. Does this mean they would have drilled all the holes at once? I do not see how, if you put the toe piece on first, like in your excellent video (though the finale needs work Smile

), you can get the gap and alignment so wrong at the back.

“Is there a bi[g] difference between the two sides?

There is quite a big difference in the gaps. What I was told (at Profeet in Chamonix) was that one (I'll call it the left) was just about acceptable on max adjustment while the right, with the misaligned pins, was not.

“what if you swap boots? (this should eliminate boot problems)?”

I don't have other Dynafit compatible boots but will ask if we can try in the shop.

“what if you swap the heel pieces?”

Will see if they willing to do that tonight. (I understand the bindings are off at the moment - they want to show me their perfect holes (ooo, mrs.).

Although it would be very good to know why this is happening, I do think and hope they will take responsibility for handing me back dangerous skis, whatever the reason - is that unreasonable?

Obviously, it must be very galling for them to get all this potentially expensive grief from a £20 workshop job.

(The main technician was away when this job was done. I have asked how many Dynafits the guy who did them has done before, but they have haven't answered).

Thanks again to all.

anticmark.

I think the swapping boots comment means try both left and right boots in the "mis-aligned ski" and check they both have the same issue. That would then eliminate the possibility that one of the boots has a manufacturing defect.

You know it makes sense.

O. Sorry. Dumb.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Why not ask them to put one of their perfectly OK (as opossed to your "faulty") bindings on the skis using the same holes to see if all is well or not?

A snowHead

Yes DB! Very good. Will do that.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Couldn't someone at Dynafit check them out?
http://www.dynafit.com/?s

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

DB - I have just emailed them with a link to here.

davidof - wish I had bl**dy done it myself. I'd know who to blame

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davidof, agree about the toe being misaligned. i'm not sure whether you'd need to redrill if it's possible to loosen off the screws a bit and rescrew them a bit more carefully. the toepiece only needs to be off by a tiny amount for it to turn into quite a big issue at the heel

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Working for EB and posting first time on a thread like this, I guess I'm walking into a baptism of fire!

So far we have only seen the ski/binding without the boot, and it's not immediately obvious what is causing the problem. With the bindings off, the drill pattern does appear to be correct (checked with jigs and by measuring).

Mark – I understand you’re coming to see a tech this evening with your boots, and we’ll see for sure (with you there) what is causing the problem.

If the mount is out we’ll deal with it, and if that means new skis then don't worry we’ll get it done.

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anticmark, on a different topic, how have you found your boots? they look like an interesting design but haven't seen too much feedback on them on the forums

Firstly, Steve, thank you for your calm and reassuring post. (Though you are misinformed about not seeing them with boot in, I went through whole thing with boot with a tech when I brought them back).

Arno, I like the boots, comically light - maybe I should start a new thread about them, though?

So.........About Last Night.

I took moral support in form of Girl Friend (good in shops) and Best Friend (proud newish owner of Dynafit ST fitted Movement Sparks).

On arrival, after popping in both boot shells, I could see that the bindings seemed perfectly set up.

What had he done !? The answer was that they were not my bindings. Channelling DB he had put on a new pair of STs in the same holes - and it all looked fine.

Hmmm......maybe it was what Arno had said, about simply playing around with the screws?

Pop one toe piece off and put it on a dummy ski he just happened to have prepared earlier.

As you can see, boot off to the side.

So, if we put my bindings back on, they will be out again?

Yes, one is. We also got the jig out and peered at the holes on my skis through it, which all seemed to line up.

The only thing definitely wrong with the drilling is that one set of bindings is not centred. They are about 4mm off the centre line. I do not know how important this is. With the bindings on it is surprisingly obvious to the naked eye and I have been told by a guide that it is “not ideal”, but I cannot believe I will be consciously able to feel any difference. What do you think?

The tech (young, Polish, seemed v good, off to do some mega 7000m ski adventure in one of the Stans soon) said they could probably be centred by making the holes bigger and using helicoils. I don't know what to think about that. (He uses helicoils on his own skis so that he can take the bindings off for travel).

What I still don't really understand is why the gaps at the back are now correct with new bindings. I was told in Cham they were on max adjustment and still too big, but, stupidly, I never got a screwdriver out myself and tried to adjust them. There is, apparently, 26mm to play with at the back.

Lessons to be learned?:

Don't dash into a shop, pick up your newly mounted skis and dash out again. If I'd examined them carefully I would have seen the centreing problem and the fact that the plates did not sit flush on the skis. Whether, at that stage in my ignorance, I'd have realised that the gaps at the back were too big and noticed any twisting, I don't know. If I had taken a couple of photos then, it would have greatly helped now.

I would think carefully before buying in one place and having fitted somewhere else. Too much scope for unclear responsibility.

Snowheads is very useful.

Dynafit can arff be tricky.

It now seems impossible to say if toe piece was faulty from beginning or damaged subsequently.

They are going to try and find me a new single toe piece.

Blame Game? For me, see lessons learned above (and any others you can think of). For EB, at minimum, skis were returned to me with one binding off centre and both bindings not screwed down properly; it is also possible that the rear gaps were set too big, and that the skewed nature of one toe piece was not noticed.

Tbh I'm pretty exhausted by the whole saga and can't think very clearly as to how to proceed. I'm supposed to be doing the Haute Route in less than two weeks, but hadn't wanted to do it on skis I've never used, or don't trust.

Anyway, I must thank you all again for bothering with all this.

anticmark.

You know it makes sense.

Also, I received a nice email from Dynafit US. With the information they had, they also thought toe piece had been wrongly mounted:

Hi Mark,

For the future it would be great if you could summarize the issue, trying to follow a forum thread where you can't see who is who is not the easiest.

Anyways, it sounds like you've got a misaligned toe. Generally you can remount the toe and get it to center the boot by starting the front screws but leaving a lot of play in them and then putting the boot into the toe. You can use this as your guide and let the heel nest down in between the pins of the heel (but not actually engaging them). Screw down the front 3 screws that you have access to, take the boot out, screw down the back two screws and recheck the alignment. It should be good to go but occasionally with mismounts like this you will need to clamp the toe down to get it to stick so just be aware.

If that doesn't work, I suppose you'll have to take it up with the shop as there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the toe unit itself.

Cheers.

John Milne
Customer Service Representative
Dynafit / Silvretta / Salewa North America

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

ok so it is a damaged toe piece... there should be no problem obtaining this as all Dyna parts are available separately. I wouldn't be wonderfully happy about the bindings being mounted 4mm off the center line. I think 1mm would be acceptable. Still I've noticed that with shop jobs you often get small problems like this. The other thing you can get is bindings mounted fore or aft of each other if you stand the skis vertically. From experience 2-3mm is not noticeable.

What a palaver !

A snowHead

"The other thing you can get is bindings mounted fore or aft of each other if you stand the skis vertically."

Sorry, sorry, this is what I mean. Not clear. If stand them vertically base to base, then 4mm off.

A snowHead

In defense of EB, their Glasgow shop mounted my new Dynafits to new skis this week & couldn't possibly have got them any more centred on each ski. I've measured it and the ski's binding marker is bang in the middle of the sole length of each boot and the screws are absolutely parallel and centred to each ski Smile

The bindings are a skoosh to get in and out of & feel rock solid while in the boots on the living room floor, far more so than my other skis with Marker 12 Alpine bindings. I'm very happy and can't wait to get out on the snow tomorrow.

These are the boots with the ends of the skis lined up ...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

anticmark, the 4mm is no doubt annoying but probably won't be noticeable. also, it is conceivable that the centre lines aren't marked accurately but that might be giving the tech too much benefit of the doubt!

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moffatross, was it Sandy? I had mine done a few weeks ago and they are perfect too.

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moffatross, was it Sandy? I had mine done a few weeks ago and they are perfect too.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

RosigLOL, yep it certainly was Sandy. Top job !! Very Happy

First weekend with them & not only were they behaving themselves impeccably (with hints & tips pregathered from wildsnow website videos) but the Scott Crusair ski feels so well planted with them that they just pile on the confidence in comparison to my old Fritschis and Dynastar 8800's.

BTW, I'm amazed at how nasty the Cairngorm rocks were to the shells and soles over about 4 miles total hoofing on Sunday. Although those boots had been used for around 10 day tours previously they'd totalled maybe about 20 miles walking on the peat and shale of the Southern Uplands and just odd bits and pieces in the West but still looked almost new. But after this weekend, they've now got proper war damage & the soles are looking pretty shredded. Smile

Help!!

Dynafit ST touring binding mounting problem.

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