ESF being very F this year

A snowHead

Anyone else have problems with ESF this half term? We've been going to the same village for 10 years now (multiple winter and summer breaks) and have built up a good rapport with a lot of the locals. We thought this included the ESF, who have helped bring my daughter on over the last 6 years.

We booked for a class with an English speaking instructor, only to get "Anglais? Moi? Non" on day one. The instructor was genuinely interested in my 11 year-old daughter's skiing though, and made extra effort to demonstrate to her while explaining in French to the rest of the class. He also discussed any development needs with me at the end of each lesson, which I was able to translate and work on with my daughter.

Things were going well on Thursday afternoon when the instructor gave a broad grin and a big thumbs-up, pronouncing my daughter more than ready for the Etoile Bronze the next day.

Friday arrives and my daughter ends up with a very vocal examiner. Vocal in French. Not a word of English, much to the concern of the 4 Brits that have been allocated to him. He proceeded to bellow at the Brits and send them down each section utterly clueless as to what they were expected to demonstrate at each stage. At the end of it all he pronounced my daughter as "trop faible" and "elle n'ecouter pas!" before poncing off to congratulate all the French kids for their top listening skills. One French girl came over to commiserate with my daughter, explaining that she'd heard some of the instructors discussing the "politics" of handling English kids this season.

Despite efforts to engage in conversation with the examiner I was given the brush-off and left to deal with a very upset daughter who had worked particularly hard with her instructor and was acknowledged by several French kids (clutching their new badges) as being a stronger skier than they were.

I'm curious to know if anyone else has encountered problems this year where they have previously had good service.

One thing is for sure, next year I will be making use of BASS and will be writing to the ESF to tell them they have lost my business for good. I'm also going to contact my credit card provider and arrange to a charge back for failing to provide the service I ordered and paid for.

A snowHead

Sounds like a good case for a wee bit of compensation... maybe to be put towards the next batch of lessons.

If you're booked with an English speaking instructor, you surely have every right to expect one.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

My children failed when they were going for their stars at times, just accept that just because you paid for a weeks lessons that does not guarantee a pass!

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I understand that. None of us expect them to be given out as an attendance award.

What I resent is the apparent intent of the local ESF to make things difficult to for English kids this year. Seeing some borderline 2-Star skiing getting awarded Bronze because they speak the right language was little more than xenophobic bullying.

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which resort please ?
we had ESF in la tania and they were good at dealing with our kids. 10 kids in 3* - 7 french and 3 brits. all instuctions given in frnech then repeated in english. didnt pass the exam and they didnt explain clearly why (not helped by us not picking kids up at end of lesson as childcare picked them up) but we worked it out after a while and my 7 yr old accept the fact that 3* is a tough level and even tougher if you are 3 yrs younger and a foot shorter than everyone else in the level. plus dont think he is pysically ready for bronze as hes only 7 !

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NoDosh - Sorry to hear of your daughter's plight. My eldest was reduced to tears once when she found out that there were Dutch children in her group and the instructor - who was a lovely bloke - was going to be teaching in (very good) English and Dutch. Hopefully, your daughter will prove that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!

This sounds potentially like a local issue. Both Little Snowploughs had ESF lessons (via Esprit) in Courchevel earlier this year and the instructors / examiners were as nice as one could have hoped for.

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A similar thing happened to my ten year old going for his gold. He went first and got it wrong and the instructor explained to the whole group again but he didn't get a second chance. This said I wouldn't worry too much about whether she got the medal or not. If you know her technique is good enough for it then the lessons have done their job regardless of the medal awarded. I'd rather my son ski brilliantly and have no medal to show than be poor with a gold badge to show for it.

I do understand and empathise with your frustration though.

After all it is free

Being a franchise operation, the ESF brand can be delivered to all sorts of degrees of competency depending on who is running that resort.

I had a not dissimilar experience to you in Tignes some years ago and even though ESF already had my money, I found Evolution2 put more effort into helping and advising us. No prizes for guessing who we used every time subsequently.

I know, through comments on snowHeads that there are branches of ESF that deliver a great service.
I know, because I've skied with some, that there are some excellent instructors working for them.
Quite frankly though, the countless negative experiences I've had with them over the years have jaded my view of the brand to such a degree that I would use anyone else first.

At Christmas this year my eldest son started with an English speaker but after a couple of days they readjusted the classes (as they should really) and he ended up with a French only speaking instructor. I asked if it was ok if I tagged on to translate - no problem - thoroughly nice guy as it turned out and I think it improved my French as I got plenty of practice... he passed his Bronze too though he wasn't the strongest in his group.

I suspect that ESFs commitment is that they will try to supply English speaking but I can't see how they would be able to guarantee it.

We were skiing in Le Grand Bornand which is a predominantly French resort (no big TO's go there) so I guess we were not surprised about the language.

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I think that ESF know they have a problem and are working to redress it... I believe that now to get a red suit the instructors must pass a verbal English test. I have heard of ex-pats being asked to spend an morning with a person who wants to be an instructor to assess whether their English is adequate.

As a result, in my experience, it tends to be the older instructors who can't/won't speak French.

As I understand it basically if you've lived in resort all your life, joined the ski club and entered the required number of races between the age of 7 and 18 then you will have earned more than enough points to get your red suit and able to teach in that resort only.

In half term week when anyone with a red suit is put into service all of the "old boys" who are crap teachers come out of the woodwork and teach for one/two weeks.....

I know it doesn't help the OP but there are still dinosoars out there within the ESF, it sounds as though you got one of them.

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It was Les Contamines. We've always had A1 service in the village over the last 10 years, hence my question as to whether this was a widespread thing.

Looks like we were just unlucky and stumbled across a local issue. Certainly I'm more than happy with the improvement in her skiing this year and am now happy to take her all over the mountain, on and off-piste. In that respect it was a win.

Taking that into account, a Visa chargeback isn't really a fair response. I will still be pushing for an acknowledgement of the issue and an apology though.

You know it makes sense.

marcellus,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I've found ESF in Les Gets great for level 2+ adult lessons and private handiski lessons (my 14 year old daughter is blind), but they seem to treat lower levels and especially children as a production line. Hence I booked my wife and 9 year old into Ecole 360 this year. They had much more fun and the groups weren't all lumped together. 30 people with 3 disinterested ESF instructors last year Sad

A snowHead

NoDosh, did you go and speak to someone in the ESF office about the issue at all?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Had a similar problem a few years ago when my son did not realise he was on a timed exercise and was being urged to go faster, and he stopped instead. Disappointing, but not a Visa chargeback issue (never knew you could even do that).

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Definitely a local issue - in Chamrousse, the week before half term, we booked an individual lesson for my son at short notice, and were supplied with the only available instructor (they called 4 before finding one available - I think they were all getting their trips in before the French hols!). The guy who turned up was apologetic about his English, but my son said it was fine, and he understood *almost* everything in the 90min lesson (it was, apparently, the most awesome lesson with the most awesome instructor . . . ever!!!).

Going out of peak times, in Montgenevre last winter and Chamrousse this year, he has had to get used to mixed language lessons (he had group lessons too), but both times the ESF instructors did make the effort.

beequin On the charge-back on Visa, this should be possible if you do not receive the service, or goods you paid for (it's in the Consumer Credit Act, and is why for some things, it is best to pay by CC, rather than eg debit card). I have never done this, but I presume there must be a way for the supplier to dispute your claim - I wonder how long that takes to resolve.

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I am not convinced Visa will go along with you. You almost certainly have a real or implied contract for ski lessons, language is almost certainly as available.

Good luck, please report success, or not.

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After all it is free

I wouldn't be surprised to find more of a problem getting an English speaking ESF instructor in resorts less frequented by Brits.

This IMHO is part due the French instructors system have shot them selves in the foot as they have made their requirements too high to be realistic, and thus stop a lot of good (even french) instructors getting through. "The ESF now being made up of wanna be or failed racers who are only really interested in showing you how good they are" in quotes as was told this in one of the numerous ESF complaints whilst teaching on a dry slope.

To be fair the ESF have addressed the issue of a high demand for English or at least English speaking instructors and that they are now losing money to the independant Ski schools: Bass; Newgeneration:Evolution2 Etc.
Note ESF rates are considerably less than those independants which are making money, again a failing in the French instructor system whereby under French rules an instructor at the top level can start his own ski school.
The issue addressing was in the form of ESF saying that they would take a top qualified instructor in everyone of their 700 schools .....the reply was but their are only 178 qualified and some of them now run their own schools (Please note that facts or figures may not be correct as this was only hearsay)

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Another thing that pees me off, whilst my rant is still in full flow, is that the ISIA (International ski instructors assosiation) is a world wide recognised teachers qualification.......exept France where you are still considered a stagiere (trainee)

No wonder even the French hate the French

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NoDosh, sorry to hear that story.

Perhaps it is because of the size and nature of the resort? And/ or a couple of not very agreeable individuals.

Our sons have been with ESF lots of times- Ben my oldest son has very often been the only English speaking kid in his class - but this has never been an issue for him, me , the other kids or the instructors who have always been as Ben puts it 'kind' (the last one sorted out a feast for all the kids with brioche and juice- which was a big hit). Actually the only instructor Ben didn't like was a female instructor in an Evolution 2 snow garden in Tignes le Lac (possibly the coldest place in the universe and where Ben - then aged 4 refined the art of hot legging- very absorbent fillings in fartbags). We have had very good tuition with ESF in; Arc 2000, Peisey, le Rosiere, Chamonix and great instructors from Oxygene in Val D'Isere.

All that said I'd be pissed off at that and the least I'd do is rant a bit here- but I think it is just too late for anything else. A real shame given the number of times you have been there- les Contamines is really pretty too!

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NoDosh, very sorry to hear this, frustrating for you and your daughter Sad

I am with admin on this and would use anyone else before the ESF where I had a choice, this comes from very bad personal experience with them when I was a beginner and from a bad jardin experience with my 4 year old.

Having said that we did use the ESF in ADH at New Year. Because of the changeover day ESF booked through the TO was our only option. This worked well for my son and the other 2 boys in our party who were in an exclusively english speaking class with a great young instructor and they had a really good time. Our friends' 5 year old ourson was in a french class despite the huge numbers of little english oursons around which wasn't so enjoyable for her.

Not really having had much experience of the ESF before I didn't actually realise they took a test and could fail. I suppose I thought that if the instructor felt that a child was not up to standard he would have moved them down a group earlier in the week. The other strange thing was that the kids took the test on day 4 of 6 days rather than day 6, this was because of the Monday changeover day. This was a bit odd as the entire class was english with the same TO all having had only 3 days instruction prior to the test. Why they couldn't have tested as usual on the 6th day even though this was not the normal 6th day I don't know. So in this respect it was the usual french arrangement with no consideration for the english kids even though there were many classes of them.

Fortunately my son passed but his two friends didn't. The good thing was though they had a paper which showed what they had failed on and the instructor awarded them a 'red medal' anyway. I don't know if this is peculiar to ESF ADH but they had a full set of colour medals to award if the child missed the full medal. Nice touch I thought.

We use an ESI school if we can. Smaller classes, generally more customer focussed attitude, generally a bit more international in outlook, usually have instructors speaking very good english. The other thing with the ESI is that they work by a process of continual assessment over the week, no formal test. This might suit some kids better and would certainly get around confusion over understanding instructions in a one-off test situation.

You know it makes sense.

France, and French institutions, are set up and run for the French. Anyone else takes their chances. Yes this is something of a generalisation, but I dont think a french person would seriously deny it. Although infuriating, in a way it gives me a sneaking admiration for the French and their way of doing things.

As for medals - I had no idea... except for their beginners lessons (dry slope) and their first week on real snow (in Norway) my two boys, now 15 and 18, have never had group lessons - for the first few years we would book a private lesson as a family at the start of the week - so they have no medals, but they are far, far better skiers than I ever was, even when I was young and fit and had knees that didn't creak.

I suppose the medals are an incentive but our boys hated group lessons, and I also recall that they involved 90% standing around watching others fall over, and 10% falling over yourself while others watched. Not wishing to court controversy but I wonder if childrens' lessons, for some people, are really just a way of getting the cherubs off your hands for the morning?

Our boys skied miles with us for day after day, and once they have the basics, I think that is a far better way of bringing them on than endless expensive lessons. By all means have a lesson every so often, but practice, practice, practice....

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A snowHead

sanman, it would be odd if skiing is the only technical sport where regular tuition as a nipper makes little or no difference!

Not sure your comparison of your kids' ability to yours is a useful one. It's how good they are now vs how good they'd have been with more group lessons that is the issue. They might have been the new Bell brothers with a few more lessons. Smile

A snowHead

sanman,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The Flying Snowplough,

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ESF in La Rosiere have been amazing for my kids this year. I was really looking forward to using the "other" ski school but they had lost my booking and were then full. IMO ESF stepped up brilliantly. with 10 in the class (less by the end of the week) and good teaching at 2 star and bronze level. Free badges (we'd had to pay 2.50e for them in Morzine the year before). Cool

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sanman wrote,

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Frosty, That may have something to do with the director in La Roz being english......

After all it is free

Rocksteadee, Interesting. I had a really good customer satisfaction questionaire e-mailed to me this afternoon even asking if they could telephone me IF I was dissatisfied to discuss any said dissatisfaction (I was not unhappy so this was not relevant).

My kids managed quite happy with Austrian "all day" lessons 2 years ago (5 and 7) in St. Anton.

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Some SHs have reported on capable kids having really excellent lessons with young instructors - doing much more adventurous stuff than they could have done with them, and the kids have loved it to bits. The French ESF system is very hierarchical, very French. The 3 girls of our next door neighbours have been right through the ESF system. Sometimes they've failed to get the speed testing fast enough, they've certainly not gone "up a level" every week they've had lessons, they accept the standards and the competitition without any problem (one failed a speed test in horrible snow last season, she was disappointed but just shrugged - they're used to it. Luck of the draw. They are all seriously good skiers. They do at least two weeks ski school a year.

Help!!

ESF being very F this year

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