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Rossignol Bandit B2's - Detune tips and tails? Yay or nay?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I've been out playing with a pair of 176cm long Bandit B2's today and found them to be very hard work compared to my little 157cm long Metron M9's.
I'm finding the Bandits to be very easy to hook up an edge and also getting them on edge feels harder than the little skis but am wondering if this is due to me being so used to skiing the Metrons?
The idea behind the Bandits is to hopefully broaden my technique ability as I feel the Metrons have made things a little too easy for me up till now.
So with the above in mind what do you guys reckon I should do with my B2's? Should I detune the tips and tails or should I just perceveire and get used to the B2's sharp tip to tail and stop being lazy? Laughing

Cheers,

Chris
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Almost 20 cm longer will make a significant difference to turning but they should be faster, it might be worth de tunning tips and tails but I'm not sure I guess you're skiing on plastic ? If so it might or might not make a difference it depends on what you are trying to achive, if you de tune the tips and tails the skis will be more inclined to skid turn rather than carve turn
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D G Orf, I was trying them out at XScape in Castleford's snow dome. No dryslope for my ski's!
I'm not so sure they're faster as the M9's are a quick ski for such a shortie. The B2's are definately more stable flat skied though.
When i put them on edge the M9's whip themselves into a turn pronto! The B2's feel as though they're just railing on edge and arc round gently. As soon as I start to force them to turn tighter this is where I can catch an edge if i'm not careful.
I can imagine the B2's being quite a handful in the narrow and steep as they are now. I just wonder if it is just my lack of technique is the problem before committing to dulling the tips and tails. If people can ski them sharp tip to tail I would like to learn how but don't want to end up having an accident.
I hope to learn to drag these B2's through moguls and narrow and steep as well as going everywhere else on the mountain I fancy.
If I was to detune, what length from the tip and tail would you recommed rubbing away with my gummi stone?
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Which B2's, the new ones or the last years? I've got some B2's but, sorry this is too late, with your objective I just wouldn't have bought them to complement M9's.

In answer to your question, persoanally, I do not detune the tip and tail of my skis, and I'd not on those.

(mm.. hold on, 176, that's going to be next years B2 isn't it? A bit stiffer than the the old one apparently, maybe a litle better complement to the M9 in that case)
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Improve technique not detune. 20 cm longer is gonna be a bt of a hand full.

As for not wanting to have an accident. No one wants to but if you are gonna progress to a point where you can give it some hammer all over the mountain then you have to accept that it will happen sooner or later, you just have to hope its not a really nasty one
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rockyrobin, When you 'catch an edge' - what do you mean ? Which ski ? Are your feet too close together ? What sort of turns do you do with the Metrons - lot's of railing and carving ?

I may be completely wrong - not having seen you ski, but I have couple of suggestions. The places you say you want to ski (bumps, narrow, steep) aren't necessarily big places to carving, you probably want a flatter, skidding ski (certainly on the steep).. so you could try being more gentle with the B2s...don't hustle them around so much.

176cm is a big step up from 157... - they won't have such a tight turn radius.

Remember that the skis do not do the skiing - you do !
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rockyrobin, I have experienced "catching" when I have lousy ski servicing. Now I check that the base is flat and that the edges are not proud, by using a big file on edge, laid on the base and looking down the length of the ski. If I see no daylight, then I am a happy bunny. Unlike ise, my personal preferences are to detune tip/tail around 12 inches in. ski, I'm no expert, but as the B2 is a freeride ski, I would expect it to make any radius of turn competently. rockyrobin, It's wider underfoot, so it's a bigger roll over to the edge with possibly less feedback than you have been used to, time to relax Cool
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ski wrote:
176cm is a big step up from 157... - they won't have such a tight turn radius.

Going from something like 11m to 16m, in fact, with the change in both ski and length?
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snowbunny wrote:
Unlike ise, my personal preferences are to detune tip/tail around 12 inches in.


Are you serious? You mean you detune 30cms off the tips and 30cms off the tails?
So, if you're skiing on a 160cm ski, you are only using the middle 100cm?
I'm guessing you're a bit old-school in your technique.
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rockyrobin, I have no idea what tune the ski arrives from Rossignol with, but I was pretty happy with it myself.

When I got the serviced for the first time I asked the shop (EB at Xscape) what base angle they put on it. After a bemused silence, they asked the tech who just puts 0.5* on everything. I'd read some blurb in the "All Mountain Skier" book about tuning, so I asked them to increase that to 1.5* to see what it was like. The change is pretty subtle, but it made the skis engage the edge slightly later (as you'd expect) and easier to "push" around, which is probably what you're looking for. I'm looking forward to getting them on a proper hill to find out the full benefits.
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rockyrobin, given what you've said, I'd get down to the local gym (on a bycicle) and start making extensive use of the weight machines concentrating on the legs e.g legpress etc, if you have stronger legs you should have some more control over how the skis perform (I can legpress 260kg on either leg and my Head GS skis go wherever I want), also as snowbunny, suggests double check the bases when they have been serviced just in case any mistakes have been made, as PG, implies if you really want to be able to turn as tightly on the Bandits as the Metrons you won't be able to carve the turn so you will have to skid it instead in which case de tune them, however I'd be inclined to use them as is and accept that you can't turn as tightly but that they will be better for high speed runs
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snowbunny,
Quote:

I'm no expert, but as the B2 is a freeride ski



of course ! But it won't do it in the same manner as a ski nearly 20cm shorter !
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Wear The Fox Hat, It all comes down to preference and capability. From what I have read on this forum, so called "new school" skiing and skis means only being able to one size of turn on one type of slope, given the ski being used. I would not make derogatory statements about a skier constrained by their inflexible equipment, or personal skillset.
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snowbunny, what I mean is that you are detuning a LOT of the ski, and that is going to reduce the capabilities of the ski to perform the way it was intended. Basically, it's like getting a car with five gears, but only using 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

As for the one size of turn remark, I hope you are being facetious. rolling eyes
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Wear The Fox Hat, What I prefer is to not have full bite as I start the turn, since I believe that I prefer to have the flexibility to adjust the radius, at point of commitment. And if skiers use all the ski's length, how come most skis edges only go blunt under the pivot point?
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I have to say, 20cm doesn't seem extreme to me.
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ise, They are definately last years (04/05) as my friend has a pair and they look identical. I don't think I would have benefited from a stiffer B2 as I'm 140 lbs/5' 11". I see what your saying about them not being the ideal companion ski for my M9's. When I got them I was thinking that hopefully with them not being the ideal ski for the job they will make me work harder and in turn hopefully improve my all round skiing technique. The M9's make skiing so damn easy but they have one big drawback and that's the short tail on them makes them feel like your skimming a stone over rough terrain and are not very stable when you crank the pace up in rough conditions. If I can master these B2's this coming Winter I reckon I will go back to a metron shaped ski as I love the carvability but only if a manufacturer gives them more ski length at the back for stability.

2plank, I agree on the technique. One of the reasons I got them to MAKE ME WORK instead of being lazy on my baby ski's. I'll try not to crash! Laughing

ski, When I catch an edge, yes I am trying to ski with my feet close together. I was trying to combine the technique of carving my turns and skidding them out if necessary to increase the radius of the turn when needed. Either these ski's dont take too well to this kind of treatment or I need to keep working on my tehnique? My friend who has these is definately an old school type skier and I noticed he either skids or just lets them arc round. He certainly doesn't look as aggresive as me with them.
When I ski the metrons I carve most of my turns. Its not hard to with the small turn radius. Bank them over, pop a bit of thigh steer in and care not to overload the edges and they turn an rail like a train. Perhaps when I get onto some more open slopes at the start of the season these B2's will do the same, just at greater speed and larger turns.

snowbunny, I've only just got the ski's so I don't think the tune of the base and edges will be a problem will they? After I had my Metron's detuned! I dont think I will trust a ski service shop with my ski's for a while. If I have to do any work I'll have a go myself. Would be interesting to know the base and edge angles of the B2. I've looked on Rossignol's site but cannot find any info. Your detune opened my eyes a bit! I think I would have to try someone elses before trying that much of a detune on my own. Do you find that when your tonking it down the slope you struggle to do a really clean carve without skidding out of the turn a bit at the end? I found my Metrons behaved like this when they were detuned hence my wariness to do it with the B2's.

PG, I just looked on the bottom of the ski's and they say 17m radius - don't want it to look like the turn radius difference is smaller than it really is and making me feel even more inadequate in my skiing ability than I do already Laughing Razz

marc gledhill, Thanks for letting me know about EB. I would have thought they would have at least gone to the effort of copying the angles they come with new. If I ever use them I reckon would be a good idea to put a big white sticker on with large bold lettering stating angles wanted.
I'm curious about your 1.5* base edge angle - Do you find that the ski's skid a bit when you bank them over before they start to carve? I found that if you banked them over you had to be careful not to let your centre of mass pop too far into the turn or the ski's would just rail round gently while you body just kept falling into the hill as the centrifugal forces weren't being generated by a tightening turn to keep your bum from kissing snow. I hope I don't do this at speed or its going to hurt!

D G Orf, Sounds like you've guessed I have rather spindly legs! Laughing I'm currently doing 3x 10+ mile cross country mountain bike rides a week and also do 50 Sartorious muscle leg exercises each leg each day both morning, lunchtime and night. I was thinking that this would have been enough till I go over to Verbier in December. I would go to the gym, but seeing how my local gyms have set themselves up as get rich quick setups im loathe to give them my money. I think you have mentioned the leg press machine before to me in another thread. I'll have to have another go at getting permission to get one in our house somewhere. If it would make all the difference I'd be willing to invest in one if it would make all the difference as I REALLY want to improve my ability, hence the awkward ski's to make me work more.
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snowbunny wrote:
Wear The Fox Hat, It all comes down to preference and capability. From what I have read on this forum, so called "new school" skiing and skis means only being able to one size of turn on one type of slope, given the ski being used. I would not make derogatory statements about a skier constrained by their inflexible equipment, or personal skillset.


Dont agree at all with your take on newschool, you really miss the point whilst completely contracdicting yourself in the two halves of your statement above
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rockyrobin, one of the reasons I bought the B2's was that I found that they initiated the turn very quickly indeed. Certainly more than the other skis I tried out at the time. The extra base angle has slowed this down by a very small amount, but they are now easier to "steer" as the edge is that bit higher off the snow and so less likely to bite. They've increased their slideaboutability.

snowbunny, you could be confusing newer "shaped" skis with the first "parabolic" skis that came out. The newer shaped skis are as versatile as older "straight" skis, but loads easier to use.
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rockyrobin,
Quote:

yes I am trying to ski with my feet close together



Get yer feet apart then ! wink
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rockyrobin,
Quote:

The M9's make skiing so damn easy but they have one big drawback and that's the short tail on them makes them feel like your skimming a stone over rough terrain and are not very stable when you crank the pace up in rough conditions. If I can master these B2's this coming Winter I reckon I will go back to a metron shaped ski as I love the carvability but only if a manufacturer gives them more ski length at the back for stability.


I don't quite understand why you are so worried about the B2s on piste. If you save the B2 for powder days and excurisons down Col de Gentianes and Mont Gele than you will be getting the best from them and stay on your Metrons the rest of the time. I'm skiing the M9 in 164 (i'm 5' 11'' too) and don't really notice the issue with the short tail. They're not as solid as my old 11:20's in crud but they do OK.

Maybe its just that Atomic make a better ski than Rossignol? wink
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2plank, Fine-whatever. There is no contradiction (your take is contracdicting). The 2nd part of my post relates to the comments made about me by Wear The Fox Hat,
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Manufacturers’ Ski Bevel Recommendations (ripped off from Epicski):

Brand/Base/Side
Atomic 1◦ 3◦
Dynastar 1◦ 1-2◦
Elan .5-1.5 ◦ 0-2 ◦
Fischer .7◦ 3◦
Hart .5 ◦ 1.5-2 ◦
Head 0-1 ◦ 0-2 ◦
K2 .5 ◦ 1◦
Olin 1◦ 1◦
Nordica .5 ◦ 1.5 ◦
Rossignol 1◦ 1◦
Salomon 1◦ 1◦
Volant 1◦ 1◦
Volkl 1◦ 2◦ (I tuned my 5 *'s to 1 & 3 at the recommendation of 'skidoc' on Epic who'se an ex Volkl factory team technician & they were way better than the 1&2 factory setting)

Caution: Don't assume your brand new skis have a decent tune on them as the factory tolerances are too great. For example my Volkl's arrived as 0.5 & 2 versus their own 1 & 2 spec, and my b5's were 1 & 2 versus the 1 & 3 factor spec! It's not uncommon for the angles to vary down the length of the ski.

I've found EB at Castleford very good for letting you spec what angles you want but you have to make sure it's written on the ticket in damned big letters & then check them afterwards.

marc gledhill, EB's told me their standard tune was 1 & 1, so it just shows you that they don't really know themselves.

rockyrobin, I've demo'd the B2's & you'll find them pretty damp & sluggish compared to your M9's. You certainly can't crank them over as aggressively as your M9's - maybe this is why you're catching the odd edge?

From seeing you ski recently I wouldn't detune your B2's yet. You've certainly got carving on your M9's cracked but I'd suggest (IMHO)working on your braquage drills to then make for easier 'skarving' and skidding on your B2's. If then you still find that they're a bit too grabby I'd only detune about 5cm at each end, not 30cm!


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Tue 5-07-05 15:22; edited 1 time in total
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snowbunny, calling you "old-school" was not meant in any derogatory manner.
I was trying to point out that if your technique was similar to how straight skis used to be skiied, then the amount of detuning you talked about would not be considered too excessive, as it was pressure more than edging which initiated turns, whereas more recent styles of turning involve getting the ski onto edge first. If the edge is blunt, then it will be more difficult to engage it.
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marc gledhill, Thanks for the B2 info. I'll see how I get on over the next few weeks. If I struggle i'll look into getting a base edge file guide and doing like yourself. I just hope I can get accustomed to them as they are. My mate skied his straight from the wrapper and now after his third session I reckon he's got them sussed. I guess I need to be more patient.

Steve Sparks, I'm not worried, just trying to get myself to work harder at my skiing as with the M9's I feel i'm having it too easy and would like to develope my skills for the day when I hope to be able to handle real fat long ski's for powder days. As my technique is now on the M9's I feel I would not be man enough for the job sadly.
Have you tried moving your bindings forward yet on your M9's? I know they turn on a dime but am really curious as to how they behave when set forward. Mincing my way down the slope is pretty easy in central binding position. Just wondering if moving the bindings will make them even more turn crazy? I've just set mine to forward so will see next time they kiss snow.
Atomic better than Rossignol? Your too kind Laughing

spyderjon, Hello there, thanks for the table of angles. I'm not sure how to check the angles so guess the only way I will find out is with a marker pen and edge file when they need sharpening.
Hehe, its not hard to carve on my little ski's to be fair about my carving abilities. I'll get working on that braquage and just hope I get the hang of it before the start of the season.
If I do sucumb to a detune - where should I measure the 5cm from? Is this from the tip or from the last point of contact on a flat surface?
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rockyrobin wrote:
I feel i'm having it too easy and would like to develope my skills for the day when I hope to be able to handle real fat long ski's for powder days.


An aspiration I totally approve of, although I doubt that a snowdome is the ideal place for working on that! It's a case of getting used to a different feeling - a bit more of letting the skis run and hanging on for the ride, rather than feeling the edges gripping all the time. Takes a bit of adjusting to go from one to the other even once you're quite experienced at both.
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rockyrobin, the flat section, if you do it from the tip you won't get any edge in 5cm

I'd do about the front 10 or 15cm and the back 5 to 10 cm and you don't need to do much to de tune, a few strokes of an abrasive rubber block will do the job.

To set angles accurately or to check them you need a precision file guide, a file and a good quality straight edge
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Wear The Fox Hat,I accept your explanation for your earlier post. I think D G Orf, for me has the numbers about right. It's all about trial and error. I always believed that I skied so called "old school" until I had a coach watch me. He adjusted my hands position at the wrist-that was it. I missed indoor slope practice last year with surgery/this year is the same, plus the broken collar bone. I may book a teacher in C-M next Jan, to check on bad habits.
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rockyrobin, I'm with Arno on this; if you want a bit of a read next time look up tip pressure control and modulation over on Epic. A ski that makes you work hard may not allow you the delicacy of control required for this skill.

From your first post, I understood you're mostly looking for more turn effect once you've actually engaged the edges. It is really hard for me to see a scenario where detuning the tips will do this for you. Detuning the tails might, but you'd no longer be in a carved turn.

Before you start working on your skis, would it be possible to ski the B2s with a heavy rucksack or something? 15-20lbs?

I see nothing wrong with the tech advice above, I'd do it if I was taking a B2 into icy bumps.
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rockyrobin wrote:
I'm not sure how to check the angles so guess the only way I will find out is with a marker pen and edge file when they need sharpening.


Blacken up the edge with your marker pen & using your file guide lightly file/stone an inch length of edge. If this removes the blackened area fully across the edge then which edge angle guide you're using is a match for the actual edge angle on the ski.

If the black is only removed on the p-tex side of the edge then the actual edge angle is steeper than the guide you're using, ie you're using a 89 degree guide on an actual 88 degree edge angle.

If the black is only removed on outer side of the edge then the actual edge angle is shallower than the guide you're using, ie you're using a 88 degree guide on an actual 89 degree edge angle.

It's obviously easiest to ascertain an edge angle if you have a selection of guide angles to play with. I start testing with an 89 degree & use an 88 & 87 if necessary.

The same process applies to the base angle, usually with 0.5, 1.0 & 1.5 degree file guides.

Once you've found the angle check it a few times down the length of the ski.
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spyderjon, angles can be checked with a straight edge and feeler gauges. I saw a table somewhere but can't locate it at the moment If I find it again I'll post a link.
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Found it

MEASURING BEVEL
If you're not using a bevel guide to set base edge bevels, use an automotive feeler gauge to check the gap between your base edge and a true bar laid flat across the base. Here's a chart:
Degree of Bevel Reading on Gauge
1/2° = .0015"
1° = .003
1 1/2° = .004
2° = .005
2 1/2° = .006
3° = .007

Does base angle only
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rich, those numbers don't seem quite right- I take it they're meant to be in inches? If so they imply a 4.37mm wide edge.

For a 1.2mm wide edge, I get:
Code:

Angle   Tangent      Gauge (mm)   Gauge (in)
0.5   0.008726868   0.010472241   0.000412293
1     0.017455065   0.020946078   0.000824649
1.5   0.026185922   0.031423106   0.00123713
2     0.034920769   0.041904923   0.0016498
2.5   0.043660943   0.052393131   0.002062722


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 5-07-05 21:03; edited 1 time in total
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rich wrote:
spyderjon, angles can be checked with a straight edge and feeler gauges. I saw a table somewhere but can't locate it at the moment If I find it again I'll post a link.


Have you ever tried it? It's damned difficult to do with any degree of accuracy - especially with my eye sight Sad
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spyderjon, four tenthousandths of an inch is difficult for you to judge by eye? Shocked rolling eyes
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comprex, my apologies you are right, the data is wrong but it did come from what is generally regarded as a reliable source - tognar toolworks

spyderjon, no never tried it. Maybe if I had I'd had found the error. I can understand it would be fiddly.

A genuine question, how accurate is the typical file guide anyone ever checked one?
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Arno, I feel its all about learning what your ski's can do, edge control, body positioning including playing with your centre of mass positioning, angulation, etc, etc. If I could not do this in a snowdome my skiing would be considerably worse if I was forced into only learning all this in resort. Glad you approve but hope you don't object to me dissagreeing with the above Wink
I notice my mate lets his ski's run so i'll try that next time instead of fighting them.

D G Orf, Cheers for the detune info. I hope I don't have to use it but will bear it in mind.

comprex, I'll have a look over on epicski and for the info on edge pressure control, thanks. I'm thinking if I need to use a rucksack to compress the skis in the turn then this would mean i'm not heavy enough to compress the ski with any centrifugal forces created from the turn.
Can I not get round this by just going faster to create more force with my body weight?

spyderjon, Thanks for going to the trouble of taking me through the process of sussing it out. Should keep me busy for a while when I next service my ski's.
Even if I dont end up detuning or changing my angles theres a lot here to think about which I hope will be of value in the future.

I'll have a close look at my friends B2's as i'm starting to wonder if his skis are detuned by the shop he bought them from.

rich, Thanks for the feeler gauge info. I'm going to be mighty busy playing with my ski's over the next week.
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rich wrote:
A genuine question, how accurate is the typical file guide anyone ever checked one?


I've recently bought tuning gear for me & my buddies. I checked my SVST side angle guides & my Beast/Toko base guides against a true edge & an adjustable set square & they were both spot on.

I think consistency is the most important thing. If you have stainless steel or anodized aluminium guides & you're happy with the tune they produce then they'll give you a repeatable result each & every time, providing the user does their bit.

Some of the low end aluminium guides I looked at seemed pretty soft to me & easily prone to wear. The cheap plastic ones I looked at could/would flex & give inconsistent results. I used to do a lot of gunsmithing & when it comes to tools you get what you pay for.
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rockyrobin wrote:
Arno, I feel its all about learning what your ski's can do, edge control, body positioning including playing with your centre of mass positioning, angulation, etc, etc. If I could not do this in a snowdome my skiing would be considerably worse if I was forced into only learning all this in resort. Glad you approve but hope you don't object to me dissagreeing with the above Wink
I notice my mate lets his ski's run so i'll try that next time instead of fighting them.

i don't disagree. it's just that you can't really open it up in a snowdome (or at least that was my experience when I went)
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Arno, You can try like I did the other day and offer up a spectacular fall for the spectators to have a good laugh at! Laughing
Your right though, it would be unfair of me to dismiss the skis without first letting them off the lead in resort.
I'll be counting the days snowHead
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