Off piste instruction

A snowHead

Hi, looking for some advice -I'm off to Zermatt in March, and would like to learn to ski off-piste.

I have made occasional forays on the other side of the poles - between pistes, unpisted controlled areas and snowy piste days etc, but that is all.

Any ideas on the best course of action? Is it a case of getting a guide and just going for it, or is it recommended to take off piste lessons (is there such a thing as off-piste 'lessons'?)

Would people recommended simply doing more of the 'down the side of the piste' stuff on our own and just keep practising?

To compound things, I am in a group of three, two of us skiers and one boarder. I probably need not even ask, but I don't suppose instructors/guides can accomodate both skiers and boarders?

All advice very much appreciated
Steve

A snowHead

Hi, I think I am about the same as you regarding dabbling in off piste. However, I am not going to Zermatt so cannot really offer any guidance on this resort.

This year I have booked an off piste, half day private lesson with an instructor in Serre Chevalier (although the snow reports are not looking promising) to teach a few friends and me some off piste skiing techniques. I enquired about it being a mixed boarder/skier group and the school was fine with this. I guess much of the lesson will focus on learning about safety and reading the conditions, as much as how to ski/board them.

I have no idea if this is the best way to go about it but it seems sensible to me. I would just enquire with a couple of ski schools in Zermatt and see what they come up with?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

As far as technique is concerned venturing off piste means learning to cope with various snow conditions. You need a "fail safe" technique or three (such as big slow safe stem turns, traverse and kick turn, side slipping) which will get you down anything that you can't ski.

Way more important than technique is "what if?" awareness. You are on your own in the back country. What happens if you break a binding? What happens if there's a white out? What happens if someone in the party has an injury? etc etc etc.

An instructor or guide should be able to assess your ability and take you to suitable terrain where you can practice.

Don't go alone or with only inexperienced or poorly equipped companions.

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If you really want to give it a go, I'd suggest doing an off piste week. I went on an 'Introduction to off piste' course with the International School of Mountaineering who are based in Leysin, and had a fantastic week last winter. I've also heard good things about Snoworks courses. If I recall correctly, the prerequisit standard was to be able to ski red runs confidently, with 'good' parallel turns.

IMV, it's not the sort of thing you can dabble in. If you REALLY want to learn how to ski off piste, you need as much time and exposure to that sort of skiing as possible. To get that exposure safely, you need a guide / professional.

A day / half day here and there will be fun, but won't really give you enough time to consolidate the techniques, so progress will be slow, and a week will be better value. Depends how much time and cash you can commit! snowHead

(EDIT - Spelling)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Thanks all - some really helpful advice here. Think I will contact some of the local instructors/guides and get some prices etc.

Good to know there is a chance they can take boarders as well as skiers, just need to decide how much time/cash I can afford,as you say hum3. Will need to speak to the troops!

Thanks too for the safety advice - I had a slightly hairy experience in Val last year, just between pistes, but I lost a ski and had a nightmare retrieving it, as I just kept sinking into the snow and couldn't touch the bottom!

I plan to do it absolutely properly, and safely, so will definitely get an instructor/guide.

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What Yoda is talking about is vital for when you get into the more serious off-piste/backcountry stuff, but maybe not quite so important for those starting to dabble in it - where you shouldn't really be in such committing terrain in the first place.

The first stage is getting your technique sufficiently good to be able to handle the variable conditions you're going to encounter. This really involves little more than the off-the side of the piste (eventually up to 5 mins off the side), finding out where your technique falls down, and then going back onto/near piste to work on it. "Off piste" technique is not fundamentally different to on-piste stuff, except just more so. So this is going to be largely being quite a bit more aggressive with turning, and up/down stuff than you are used to on piste, thinking maybe a bit more about how you blend the basic skill to cope with crappier snow.

Overlapping with the later bit of that is a load more in experiencing variable terrain, and learning the decision-making processes on how to choose line and turn techniques appropriate to what's in front of you. You're never going to get it right 100% of the time, so there's a load of recovery manouevres you're going to be executing all the time, and so you need to train your reactions to you do the right thing when the snow does something other than what you expected. One instructor said skiing off-piste was essentially just a series of linked recoveries - and he's not wrong!

As for instructors vs guides, go for an instructor to start with. A guide does just that - guide you around the mountain, and when you get more into it may well give hints/instruction on more maointaincraft, but will not be using the eye and level of feedback that a trained instructor would do. Do make sure the instructor is a high-level, or off-piste specialist though.

This will all take a bit of time, so just a half day lesson will do little more than give you an idea of where you need to work on stuff. I'd echo the recommendation of courses such as those run by Snoworks. The All-terrain courses (run by them and a number of other outfits) will address much of what I said above. Getting a little further into it, they than also run Backcountry courses which have half instruction (to sort out those problems you've not quite got a handle on yet) and half guiding (to take you further into the back/side-country) where you can put your new-found skills to the test.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

GrahamN is being very kind (not his usual style Laughing

), must be deference to my advanced years.

I guess I was partly and in my usual clumsy fashion saying be careful - even just off the side of the piste, it's very tempting to go a bit further wink

Remember the old saying about most avalanche deaths occurring within 50 metres of a piste or whatever it was. If you've ever been caught in a full white out on a piste imagine what it would be like if you'd wandered a few hundred metres away Shocked

Which is why the advice about doing a course or hiring an instructor is the way to go.

After all it is free

I would reccommend some lessons with a suitable instructor ( Toofy Grin

not that I am biased or anything !)
There are 2 parts to off-piste skiing or boarding.
First is the technical skills to do it, and second is the mountaincraft that goes with it.
Suitably qualified Ski instructors are good at the technical skills, and some have the mountaincraft as well.
Mountain Guides, if they are happy to teach, are good at the mountaincraft bit.
Totaly agree with GrahamN comments.

Rather than just booking a guide or instructor randomly, I would do a little more research.
There are plenty of us, both individuals and companies, that specialise in this kind of combined instruction.

Are you looking to do something before your Zermatt trip ?
I can point you in the right direction in Verbier & Chamonix.
I'm sure other snowheads can help elsewhere.

Mixed groups (ski & board) are a little more difficult. Finding a suitable instructor that can teach both boarding & skiing is going to be difficult. (Just ruled myself out !). You could break it down a bit - the mountaincraft is universal.

Taking the off-piste plunge ...
Many people enjoy, and can make a passable attempt at, something next to the piste when the conditions are nice. Real off-piste skiing (or boarding) is having the skill, confidence, and enjoying heading off in to something with no real escape route and dealing with whatever is thrown at you. It's not just powder ...

hum3, sorry mate, but that's the biggest load of balls I've read on here in a long time. Elitist claptrap peddled by the type of wannabe who want's to try and show how "knarley" they are. Of course you can dabble in off-piste. Any instructor worth their salt will tell you that off-piste skiing technique is simply an extension of on-piste skiing, except with resistance around the boot and legs that you don't get on groomed piste. There's more to that that, obviously, but you need to start somewhere.

leedssteve, get yourself a half day 121 coaching, learn the basic technique doing between the piste stuff, then if you really enjoy it think about getting more 121's, then if you're completely sold on it, consider doing a weeks specialist course as hum3 suggested.

Can't dabble? Do me a favour.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Alan McGregor, please do point me in the direction of someone in Chamonix. I'm looking for combined instruction in technique and mountain craft.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Zero-G, you could see if BASS Chamonix have something suitable.

snow reports

I second what Dr John said. I did two half-day sessions a month ago:
1. It gives you a good idea of whether you are cut out for it. I witnessed someone go "nah uh" after the first tricky pitch. He went to pieces after that and I doubt he will venture past the piste markers again
2. It is a really good way to find out just how unfit you may be! I exercise 7 days a week but my legs were lead after 4 hours of tough terrain

Don't let 1 and 2 above put you off - I loved it and am going back for more snowHead

Thanks rob@rar

You know it makes sense.

Thanks for all this advice everyone, really pleased I registered now!

Looks like a half day session or two should give us an idea of what it is like, some starter techniques to practice in safe areas, and hopefully inspire us to continue!

I was googling off piste instructors last night but didn't come up with much - can anyone on here help with contacts for Zermatt in late March? Probably only be a half day or two.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

leedssteve, Summit Ski School are very good, not cheap though, but then Zermatt isn't.

A snowHead

Zero-G, also worth looking at savage globe - they do a range of off piste course in the Chamonix area. never actually been with them but they seem to have a good roster of guides and instructors

A snowHead

Thanks Colin, will give them a call.....yes I am noticing that Sad

still holding off buying the lit pass and just watching the CHF get worse!

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... and as a rule, I wouldn't recommend people dabble in off-piste. Give it the respect it deserves...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

TBH I think there is more than one way of approaching this, and much of that depends on your skiing ability, and the amount of time/money you have. I only have one week to go skiing, and I want to go with my friends who are of very mixed ability. However, I also want to progress my own skiing and to start to learn more about off piste skiing. I know I have a long way to go.
A half day lesson with instruction seemed a good compromise and better than taking no instruction at all. I think that is giving it the respect it deserves. I hope to slowly build up my skills and if I enjoy it, then I would think about a full week of tuition in the future. I am not going to take half a day instruction and consider myself accomplished at off piste, but it might just give me a few skills to work on for next time. I don't think that is the only way to do it, but it is the way that I think would suit me, and apparently is what Zero-G also did. If I had more time and money, then I would definitely consider a full week to really get to grips with it, but this is a bit out of my grasp at the moment.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Add my vote to BASS in Chamonix.
Alison (Colshaw I think) is particularly good if she still works for them.
Derek & Shona Tate are both great, and are BASI Trainers.
Tell them what you are looking for, and say I said Hi

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

leedssteve, for this year you're probably doing the right thing (although when I looked at Zermatt ski school prices a couple of years ago my eyes did water!). If you want more though (and same applies to carettam), you should really think of something like a Snoworks course (or InspiredToSki or something similar - other prividers are available). The Snoworks courses are often half-day each day for a week, so you get plenty of time to ski with your mates. They also normally have about 50 people each week, so have plenty of groups at different levels and each of you in a mixed ability group get great tuition at the level that's most appropriate to each individual, provided you're not insistent on skiing with each other every minute of the day. If you're going to have a second week, the courses in December are often particularly good value.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

leedssteve,

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

leedssteve, Take a look at this, seems to be fairly comprehensive list of schools and guides there. Would probably need their websites for more detail of what they offer.
http://www.theskischools.com/Zermatt-Ski-Instructors-Ski-Schools-Resort-Information.htm

You know it makes sense.

leedssteve, instructors' ability to take skiers on glaciated terrain is pretty limited. if you are somewhere like Zermatt with lots of glaciers, a UIAGM will be able to show you a lot more terrain

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

To be fair to Summit their prices for group and private lessons are exactly the same now as when I first contacted them about lessons in 2007. However back then the exchange rate was about 2.2, it's now 1.5.

A snowHead

Good luck leedssteve. Do come back and let us know just how much fun I am sure you are bound to have. If you want an idea of what it can be like on half day sessions, here's a link to some shameless self-stoke.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Zero-G, Nice one! Sounds amazing, can't wait Happy

I will definitely report back.

Do I need any extra kit for first time - like transceiver or anything? I don't really know much about how these work/costs?

Colin B, Have heard back from Summit - prices look pretty good, all things considered, but they have confirmed can only do the marked runs, so prob not really likely to have much powder.....

Martin Bell, Thanks, have just emailed Stoked

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

leedssteve, I've been provided with harness and transceiver but would recommend you check that when you book.

You'll need to Register first of course.

leedssteve, We generally run our courses in Zillertal , Austria. However we cater exactly for skiers like you who are looking to start the journey in to off piste all terrain skiing. All our coaches are fully qualified ski teachers and are also qualified to teach off piste. Www.Alpinecoaching.com

If ever you fancy a course in Austria look us up!

Highly recommend BASS Chamonix and Snoworks also.

PSG

Help!!

Off piste instruction

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