 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi All,
excuse my ignorance but this year is really the first year of skiing that we've really got into checking the snow reports/conditions etc, may sound like a stupid question but what exactly does it mean when the snow report at a resort describes the snow as 'hard packed'? does this mean it will be icy????
only reason i ask is that we are off to madesimo next week, they have a great base of 210cms at the top and 50cms at the base, but its described as 'hard packed'?
thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| cbowls30 wrote: |
| does this mean it will be icy???? |
Yes. Not water-ice, like you'd put in your G&T but heavily compacted, cold snow, scraped by the passage of many skis and not softened by any new falls of snow.
I like it, but not everyone does. Nothing to worry about, it'll make you concentrate on honing your technique as your edges will tend to slip down the hill rather than bite and turn/carve like they would in 'better' conditions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Not water-ice, like you'd put in your G&T but heavily compacted, cold snow, scraped by the passage of many skis and not softened by any new falls of snow.
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But you might also encounter patches of genuine ice, blue/green stuff. Depending on the resort, and the extent of it, the genuine glinty ice patches might be marked (e.g. with crossed poles) to warn you of them. Obviously you'd try to avoid those, but if you find yourself on one, just keep your skis flat and slide across it till you find something nicer. After a lot of genuine icy patches, some consistent "hardpack" will seem most pleasant. 
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As against the warm stuff we're used to
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I distinguish between 'hard packed' and 'icy'. Hard packed can be fine to ski and it is not too difficult to edge decently. With icy, on the other hand, you really have your work cut out and the snow is tending more to the G+T type ice, so it is difficult to hold an edge. Hard packed often has icy patches in it. pam w's advice is good; just get over icy patches without panicking, they often aren't too big.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Depends if the conditions are described by a disinterested observer or a stakeholder. Expect anything from ice and rocks to firm and grippy. Not freshly packed powder for sure.
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Yep, hard packed, just trust your edges to do their job and enjoy the best conditions there are for piste skiing! (others may disagree about the conditions being best!)
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| davkt wrote: |
| Yep, hard packed, just trust your edges to do their job and enjoy the best conditions there are for piste skiing! (others may disagree about the conditions being best!) |
Best conditions?
Surely corduroy beats anything?
Do love hardpacked though, I must say. Will love it even more now I have skis with edges that will do their job.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Corduroy ties for best I'll admit!
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| Quote: |
Corduroy ties for best I'll admit!
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I'll go for the corduroy laid down at 6pm last night, covered in a foot of powder which fell overnight. Thanks.  I found that what was difficult about the "hard-pack with occasional patches of genuine ice" was reacting fast enough when leaving the former (which requires loads of weight on the uphill edge of that downhill ski) and skittering across the latter, where any degree of edging will generally result in a crash.
Keeps you on your toes (metaphorically speaking) but it wouldn't be my surface of choice. And so noisy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You're definitely this week's ice/hardpack expert pam w,
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Picadilly, I've spent a good few days this January trying to sort out how to do it - without brilliant success, I have to say. Never feel really secure. But like the experts tell us, it's probably good for our soul. The one thing I've not done, is fall, as normally I do all sorts of mucking around which I don't have the confidence to do on that hardpack.
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pam w, I have to say, I really hate ice. However it's dawned on me that my old skis were useless, even when the edges were tuned. They were simply knackered. I'm hoping that my new ones will inspire a whole new level of confidence.
I hired some skis in La Plagne last month out of frustration, they were brand new Dynastar Exclusive Idylls and the edge grip was astounding. My brother (who is arguably an expert) slid halfway down an icy red piste (top of Carina), where my skis gripped like ice skates.
When I say it was icy, I mean it was scraped down to the base where you can see the marks from the piste bashers.
I've come to the conclusion that aside from technique, razor sharp edges are really the key.
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You know it makes sense.
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thanks all, well we've skied there many times and always had brilliant conditions, although our trip to andorra at the beginning of the year with very poor snow has got us worried! we've got some complete beginners with us and i don't want them to have a bad experience first time around..... will definately make sure our ski edges are good if that's the key! i think maybe that didn't help us in Andorra..... although they hadn't had snow in quite a while and thier base wasn't even half of what they have in Madesimo at present, and from the webcam i've checked they are getting snow right now....... fingers crossed, will be doing my trip report when we return!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Personally I'd grade it...
Ice - your pole just goes clonk on the surface, no mark
Icy - thud and just a tip mark.
Hard-packed - less noise and you can get the pole in 1/2way to the basket (with effort).
On my first ski trip all the experienced skiers were complaining about the ice. I knew no better and to me it was just snow. As a result I've always been better than average on hard pack/icy pistes. It's not that I'm good at it, it's justy my standard doesn't drop as much as others when I hear the noise. You can see people tense up and to me staying relaxed is the key... and patience, waiting for the edges to bite. I could be taking rubbish but it works for me
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I could be taking rubbish but it works for me
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sounds right to me! Patience essential - no jerky, panicked, movements.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Remember where the OP is getting his info...
| Quote: |
| snow report at a resort describes the snow as 'hard packed' |
They will never use the word Ice or Icy
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The Rockies-skiing locals' definition of ice and icy takes things to a whole new level.....
We saw signs in Winter Park saying 'Caution, marginal snow cover/ice' when they meant (in our view) packed powder - you could drop a ski pole from about 6" and it would stick in the nice, soft snow. It was groomed corduroy! The same day we spoke to a woman who was packing up at at lunchtime because it was 'Kinda icy.' We didn't hit anything that we would describe as ice during a week there. To be honest, they're generally spoiled by snow conditions and don't know the meaning of the word icy!
On the other hand, a sign at the bottom of Glas Maol lift, Glensee, said it all a few weeks ago: 'CAUTION. ICE. EXPERT SKIERS ONLY - THINK SURVIVAL.' The run was an inclined ice rink and should have been closed! Still, all part of the training as they say
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| Quote: |
CAUTION. ICE. EXPERT SKIERS ONLY - THINK SURVIVAL.'
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hardpack isn't just skier packed as it can certainly occur naturally. Wind and rain and deep freezes can create a similar snow state that isn't ice, nor is it snow or rattly neve.
Useful kit is an easy to use (with cold hands) jacket pocketable edging tool with built in angles and a replaceable file like the one below. On the days I do remember / bother (usually in the car park when I think hardpack/ice is looking very likely), it makes a world of difference. Laziness mostly prevails though and I end up not spending the 5 or 10 minutes to shave off a few microns of metal and curse not having sharper edges.
Anyone familiar with Glencoe will know what I mean but a week ago I traversed some well off the beaten track, steep hardpack which was interrupted by a field of flowing glacial ice with rocks below that I very much didn't want to tumble down onto. In trying to hop up to the decent hardpack above so as to continue my traverse, the extreme landing loading to edge-set the skis popped my uphill DIN 7/8 set binding and I only just managed to grab the left foot ski before it tumbled down the ice onto the no-go area. The lesson learned was that trying to put a ski back on whilst standing sideways on a 35 degree slope with nowhere to go to find soft stuff underfoot is very difficult and left me feeling precariously exposed so on 'firm' days, bindings will most definitely be wound up tighter in the future.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
I could be taking rubbish but it works for me
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sounds right to me! Patience essential - no jerky, panicked, movements. |
I was about to get upset... untill I read the second sentance.
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| adithorp wrote: |
Personally I'd grade it...
Ice - your pole just goes clonk on the surface, no mark
Icy - thud and just a tip mark.
Hard-packed - less noise and you can get the pole in 1/2way to the basket (with effort).
On my first ski trip all the experienced skiers were complaining about the ice. I knew no better and to me it was just snow. As a result I've always been better than average on hard pack/icy pistes. It's not that I'm good at it, it's justy my standard doesn't drop as much as others when I hear the noise. You can see people tense up and to me staying relaxed is the key... and patience, waiting for the edges to bite. I could be taking rubbish but it works for me |
Hmm think that makes icy my favorite then! No thud and tip sinking in is getting a bit soft to me! Exactly the same as you I learnt on icy stuff (good old Tamworth) hear that hiss as the edges bite and I am happy!
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Resort marketing descriptions - Reasonable real world
Powder - It snowed in the last week
Packed powder - It snowed so long ago its totally consolidated
Skier packed powder - Its solid with ruts
Hard pack - Death ice
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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also noticed how different snow reports can be.... ski club of GB tells me that the base in madesimo is just 30cms, j2ski says 50 cms, and the resort website, 60cms! enough to make you go crazy! the internet is a great thing but i sometimes think it was better years ago when you had no idea what kinda conditions you were getting until you go there!! lol...... makes me sound ancient but i'm really not that old!
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cbowls30, Waiting 15 mins for teletext to inform you that (The resort you're going to) "best conditions on the upper slopes" was all we had. I was glued to that screen for months and it never changed. Listening to the rep on the transfer bus was the first real info you got.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Waiting 15 mins for teletext to inform you
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I remember that. We live overlooking an old mill pond which is actually a saline lagoon - so it only freezes when it's reeeeeeeeeeeeeeealy cold. I have a very strong memory of the pond being so frozen someone was skating on it, and I was doing some leg exercises whilst waiting for that wretched teletext to come round again. I suspect it was like now (high pressure in charge) and the snow conditions - PdS I think - were thin and icy.
I also remember one year, flying to Serbia, when the incoming TO flight disgorged people into the same area we were waiting to fly from. they were all besieged by people asking what the snow was like (it wasn't specially good..... they were a bit tight-lipped).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| fatbob wrote: |
Resort marketing descriptions - Reasonable real world
Powder - It snowed in the last week
Packed powder - It snowed so long ago its totally consolidated
Skier packed powder - Its solid with ruts
Hard pack - Death ice |
This is accurate.
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moffatross,  never had that happen to me on similar traverses - and my bindings are set at a modest 6.5. Agree on the need for keeping the edges in shape, though.
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You know it makes sense.
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achilles, it was a real shock to me too, I'd never imagine that particular torque circumstance could be a weakness. It is possible that I had some lift queue hike snow lodged in just the wrong place between binding & boot but earlier jumpy turns on that same run in much softer snow hadn't dislodged either ski. The only times I've ever had those bindings tested, the loads applied were pushing/pulling the boot forwards and backwards along the length of the ski and rotating the boot whilst at a right angle to the ski so I wouldn't have discovered if the bindings had a fault in that respect.
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