 Poster: A snowHead
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Well wa-d-ya-no.
I was at the BASI AGM and stuff happened and so I wrote a snotty email to the powers that be.
Our new boss man (CEO) young Fergus called me yesterday to explain and apologise and for a general chat.
Chatted about the “French problem”, the shocking way in which UK based TO’s are denigrating the value of BASI instructors by the pocket money they doll up as “a package worth”, buying a hack-saw to free the “Morzine 1” – we won’t forget ya Bex, etc
Good on ya Fergus
1st time for everything.
Just though that as people tend to post when their not too happy about something I'd post and give praise where praise is due.
PS.
Sent via PC anywhere via various satellites, semaphore, telegraph, pony express, etc so not sure if this will work but I'll give it a try (pressing enter now)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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roga,
Nothing much, just that the talk regarding BASI's French plans were cut short by Fergus when some people had not finished talking.
This is a section of the e mail I sent to each board member via Gareth - the section regarding the other points is private and is not shown here.
Gareth has sent me a reply but as this was addressed only to me I don't think I should put it on here.
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Hi Gareth,
First can I add my congratulations to everyone else’s on your election as the new chairman; BASI can only benefit from having you at the helm. Oh by the way, as I’m sure it was my vote that swung it in your favour you now owe me a pack of custard creams.
Regarding BASI’s fixation with the “French problem”, here are, as promised, my thoughts on the matter, which I freely admit may be may be totally misguided but…….
I understand that, due to the past efforts of BASI, ISTD’s can now work legally in France; can we not just accept this and move on?
It seems to me (and I admit it may be only me) that the aggressive stance now adopted by BASI of setting up training centres in France with the sole intention of goading and antagonising the SNMSF into taking legal action, will do nothing to foster a jointly beneficial working relationship with either ESF or the SNMSF. In fact I would go further and suggest that it may undo some of the inter-association bridge building that took so long to accomplish.
I am sorry to have to say this, and I realises that in these days of the One Europe mentality it may be seen as outdated, but it is their country, not ours.
We all understand that European laws do allow suitably qualified people to operate and work as and where they see fit in other member-states of the EU, but as an example, if some country or other doesn’t want foreigners to set up training centres in their country why not just accept this.
Can we, as a democratic association, continue to justify our board’s present, provocative, course of action which has the expressed desire to spend large amounts of member’s funds on expensive legal action that, if successful, can simply have no benefit what-so-ever to the vast majority of members as it could only ever benefit a tiny section of the membership. If unsuccessful it would (or at least could) disastrously slam the door shut in our faces for years to come.
I’m sure you will recognise, as does everyone else, that the 6,000+ membership of BASI consists mainly of people who will never, realistically, be able to work in France. Some may see this as unfair, but if people are really insistent in their desire to work in France, BASI provides the mechanism for them to do so – they can gain their ISDT. I appreciate that, legally, the board can do as it sees fit with our funds, but has anyone actually considered whether it’s fair, to the wider membership, to use the (our) funds in this way.
Of course the mantra “it’s what the majority of members want” is always trotted out in an effort to stop any reasoned debate concerning the squandering of time, effort, resources, etc, on the French Problem. Well, from my perspective, no they don’t and if they do they need a reality check. Following the efforts of Dave Renouf and others from BASI, anyone who holds the relevant qualifications can already work virtually anywhere they want to, with the only proviso being that their qualifications are acceptable to the governing body in their chosen area. The “majority of the members” who are continually cited, may have a wish list but, in my opinion, this does not justify the board’s current (intended) course of action.
The act of setting up training centres in France against the wishes of the locals, whilst technically legal, is not the act of a training association and is veering towards applying political pressure. It was interesting to note that at the AGM the vote was carried for Special Resolution No 3, to the effect that BASI will now issue licences not qualifications. This by inference confirms that BASI is solely a training organisation and this precludes us from being (and I at least hope that we will never become) a political organisation – this is not our “raison d'être”. It does seem that some within BASI simply can not move on from the bad-old-days and just will not let go of this (as they see it) problem, should we not stick to what we do and leave the politics to others.
The argument that “if we don’t do it, who will?” simply doesn’t wash as the answer is so simple. No-one would as no one needs to.
As I mentioned above, due to the past efforts of the BASI hierarchy, we have already accomplished what we set out to do all those years ago in that ISTD’s are finally allowed to work in France. The setting up of training centres, or asking that lower qualifications are afforded the same rights (to work in some guises, eg training, or other), may be merely perceived, by some, as an attempt to force the French authorities to accept lower qualifications from foreigners than they would accept from the own nationals.
I would ask that we, as an association and the board specifically, accept that as suitably qualified BASI members now have the right (and are able to) to work almost anywhere in the world, it’s done, it’s over. Is it not now time for a simple pat on the back and time to move on?
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I should in fairness, point out that both Gareth and Fergus have answered point each raised with their own ideas on the topic.
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Wayne thats an awesome email. If you could ask Gareth / Fergus if you could publish some or all of their responses I'm sure many would be interested.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wayne, thanks for posting that.
I must say that I disagree with almost all premises in your email.
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| by some, as an attempt to force the French authorities to accept lower qualifications from foreigners than they would accept from the own nationals. |
If I were to go on holiday to France, take a lesson with an ESF instructor and only get someone who was fully qualilfied then I'd agree with you. But the truth is that the vast majority of ESF lesson hours are delivered by stagieres, not fully qualified instructors. All the French rules do is prevent those stagieres from teaching for more than three years. Unless everyone turns a blind eye.
If I had my test technique then I could go and work tomorrow for ESF Morzine, but not BASS Morzine.
It doesn't disadvantage me - I can teach in France (but only for three years (unless the French turn a blind eye, which they'll do if it's convenient)).
It disadvantages the ISTDs who run BASS Morzine. Despite 5 of the ISTDs there being BASI Trainers and 3 of them having competed for their country.
What the current arrangements do is prevent ISTDs with ski instruction businesses providing any serious competition to ESF.
(The whole qualification / Eurotest stuff is a smoke screen. It's nothing to do with the quality of lessons delivered to the public and everything to do with preserving a monopoly.)
ESF works by everyone earning the same and then "voluntarily" giving a (sizeable) proportion of their "pay" back to the profit share. That profit share is then (broadly) shared by tenure - the people with one year's tenure get one share each and the people with ten years tenure get ten shares each. It's a pyramid scheme.
Monopolies are great. If you're the monopoly.
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Agree with snowrider, would be very interested to read the response 
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 8-12-10 3:15; edited 1 time in total
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FlyingStantoni,
| Wayne wrote: |
I realises that in these days of the One Europe mentality it may be seen as outdated, but it is their country, not ours.
We all understand that European laws do allow suitably qualified people to operate and work as and where they see fit in other member-states of the EU, but as an example, if some country or other doesn’t want foreigners to set up training centres in their country why not just accept this.
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My main concern is not if a (very) few L3's who want to work in France can do so, but with the amount of time, effort and cost BASI is spending on this.
Could we not, for example, use the funds to run a few free courses for L1's on some dry slopes, reduce the cost of some other basi course, etc, etc.
Basically if the largest school in France don't want us running course that will only ever benefit a tiny proportion of the basi members then why not just move on and get on with what we're meant to do, ie, train ski instructors.
Don't worry though  , I'm not in any doubt that my views are not those of the majority, but hey, just putting in my tuppeny-worth
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Wayne,
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| It was interesting to note that at the AGM the vote was carried for Special Resolution No 3, to the effect that BASI will now issue licences not qualifications. |
I didn't spot that. An interesting change (or clarification), any idea what it's all about ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Tuppenies always good Wayne.
| Wayne wrote: |
| My main concern is not if a (very) few L3's who want to work in France can do so |
As I say, L3s (and L2s) can work in France now. Just for a limited time and not for a living wage.
It's the ISTDs running ski schools who aren't allowed to compete fairly.
Besides, I'm not sure it's the case that only a few L3s want to work in France. Currently only a (very) few L2s and L3s work in France. But that's a different thing.
If you're a L2 and want to be a L3 then accumulating 200 teaching hours is really difficult if you're not lucky enough to live close to a slope. Building up 200 hours at a rate of 2-3 hours a week is horrendously slow. That's why people do Interski. Create the option of working in France and I think you'll be surprised how many people will want to do it.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| That's why people do Interski. Create the option of working in France and I think you'll be surprised how many people will want to do it. |
I agree and conversely that's why Interski can get away with paying such low wages!
Personally I've been lucky being able to do plenty of hours on dry as well as instructing in Scotland (for a decent wage!) but for most that's not an easy option and Interski is a more convenient option.
Mind you knowing Wayne's 'love' for Interski I suspect he may already be aware of this
Strikes me that the better option at the moment is to get L3 and then if you want to go there try working in France, that way you have the 3 years to concentrate on L4. It's still a lot to do in the time IMHO whilst also instructing and trying to cover living costs but is more achievable.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wayne, like FlyingStantoni I disagree with almost all the premises in your email. I was in Zermatt on BASI week a couple of weeks back. Just from chatting to various L2 and L3 candidates as well as Trainers, I would suggest that you are correct in thinking that your slightly curious viewpoint is very much in the minority. My impression is certainly that Fergus Waters and Dave Renouf's efforts very much have the appropriate mandate of a well considered membership, which as you intimate is ultimately what matters. I and another lowly L2 were fortunate enough to find ourselves having lunch with them and took the opportunity to express our support and gratitude for their resolute and unfaltering efforts.
In the UK we have opened our doors to the equivalently qualified EU workforce, sometimes to our mutual benefit and sometimes to our detriment, but the policy is applied in accordance with EU law. British ski instructors are trained to the highest of standards, so why should we be restricted in the practise of our trade on equal terms in any part of the EU? The "French Problem" as you refer to it is one of job protectionism - no real pretence to the contrary is made by even the French themselves. If British ski schools have Centre de Formation status they'll be able to compete on an even footing, and either the ESF will tighten up its own rules or a different but common set of rules will be agreed upon or become the de facto norm. Any erosion of the job protectionism situation would be welcome, be that being able to work for a British ski school in France with L2 (plus TT if necessary) or L3s being allowed to work for any ski school without restriction all over Europe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges,
| Wayne wrote: |
| Some may see this as unfair, but if people are really insistent in their desire to work in France, BASI provides the mechanism for them to do so – they can gain their ISDT. |
I think that maybe you are confusing what is meant to happen and what the reality of the situation is.
The nations of Europe, regardless of what the self justifying/perpetuating gaggle of freeloaders in the Euro Council would have you believe, are all different. Just because we (in Britain) think something is wrong doesn’t mean that the French should share this belief.
In the UK we have a mind-set that that dictates how the majority of people will react in a given situation. The French, Germans, Italians, Spanish, etc, have a different mind set. But, more pertinently, the various governments also have a different mind-set/reaction to various situations. The French government will, sometimes, cave in when faced with mass protest; the UK government would see this as some form of capitulation to the mob, etc. So, the people and governments around Europe do not have the same compliance to the rule of law or (perceived) protectionism of the of their livelihoods
We may feel that protectionism in an anathema, the French don’t and (I say again) it’s their country not ours. The obviously don’t want us setting up training centres, so why not just accept it and move on.
OK, I could set up a horse slaughter house in the UK but just because it’s perfectly legal for me to do so, doesn’t mean that it would be acceptable to the British mind-set. In the same way as dropping a goat from the church steeple would be somewhat frowned upon in the Home Counties, it’s the norm in a few areas so would putting up nets on top of your house to catch passing birds (mind you I do like a good pie, Wiganer ya-see
Just to set up my stall. I have absolutely no interest in the French Problem or its (possible) solutions. What I object to is the amount of funds being spent on the (possible) employment of a tiny number of unqualified people that are trying to circumvent French (maybe non-legal, but hey-ho it’s their country) conventions.
But again (as you say) I may be the only one who thinks this way and “if” the majority of BASI embers don’t mind their subs being spent on the possible future employment of a tiny number of members in France for a few weeks each year, that’s fine by me.
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| Quote: |
| being spent on the (possible) employment of a tiny number of unqualified people that are trying to circumvent French (maybe non-legal, but hey-ho it’s their country) conventions. |
I think that's where we fundamentally disagree.
The debate has nothing to do with personal qualifications. If it was then French stagieres would only be able to teach under supervision.
L2s and L3s are both qualified and represent by far the biggest majority of the BASI membership.
They are legally qualified to teach in France if they:
- work for a French ski school
- work in Switzerland or Italy and ski across the border with a client
- travel out from the UK with a school group or club
- teach for free (the law in France only prevents teaching for money - it's perfectly legal for a L2/L3 to teach for free)
According to the French it's the British Ski Schools that aren't "qualified" to supervise the training of BASI members.
I've no doubt that your point of view about subs being spent on a small number of people was articulated when people like Hugh Money originally set up in France. You can well imagine the cries of the Scottish instructors asking what the point was when it was only Hugh and one or two others who were willing to take the risk.
Your view of "its their country" is analogous to it being ok for the townsfolk of Newcastle being able to murder each other as long as they all agree that it's ok - regardless of national law.
EU law allows EU professionals to work in the UK. It should allow UK professionals to work in France. And Italy. And Germany.
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You know it makes sense.
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EU law allows EU professionals to work in the UK. It should allow UK professionals to work in France. And Italy. And Germany.
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I'd agree with that completely and while this issue doesn't affect me directly I can't agree with Wayne that France should be allow to break EU law just because as he puts it "it's their country". France is in the EU and signed up to abide by the regulation set out by EU law. If they don't do this then they should be challenged.
It's also a very easy argument to say there aren't that many people working in France so the problem isn't that big. But this could be better worked as the French problem means that there aren't many people able to work in France, therefore it needs to be dealt with. If France didn't have such a large Alpine region it still would matter that they are not obeying EU law. The fact is that France's geography makes a massive amount of potential opportunities for working.
Just my opinion . . .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
when people like Hugh Money originally set up in France.
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I can't contribute to the basis of this discussion but do remember having lessons with Hugh in Les Gets, back in the day......
It's good that they've persisted. And for what it's worth, there are certainly some French instructors who would agree with some of the BASI arguments
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Poster: A snowHead
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| France is in the EU and signed up to abide by the regulation set out by EU law. If they don't do this then they should be challenged. |
I was in Germany a while back. Me and my mate and about 20 or 30 Germans were waiting to cross a road. Someone had pressed the button and we all waited for the traffic to pass. It did, the road was clear for miles, no cars in any direction. Everyone stood there waiting for the little red man to change into a little green man. Went it did they/we all walked accross the road - but not before
It seemed strange to me but to the Germans it didn’t.
I was in France a while back. I ordered some of that disgusting sludge the French call coffee and sat down. Next to me some ESF instructors were also having a coffee and (I sh*t you not) they dipped their pasties into their coffee, no one in the café went up to them and told them off for being grosse.
It seemed strange to me but to the French it didn’t.
I was in Spain a while back. I was looking at the pictures in the local paper and there was some chap getting praised by the local mayor as he was good at sticking a sword into a bull to entertain the crowd.
It seemed strange to me but to the Spanish it didn’t.
I was in ......
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
We ain’t all the same. We may see it as wrong (and we may be on firm legal ground) but …………….
Mind you I remember Alberto Tomba judging a beauty contest where the first prize was a weekend away with him. Maybe we should become a little more European in our attitudes 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| The French Problem as you refer to it is one of job protectionism - no real pretence to the contrary is made by even the French themselves |
The whole french protectionism thing is a myth
People forget that the instructor qualifications for French wannabe instructors are just as hard, if not tougher.
For example the French only get a limited number of attempts at the infamous speed test.
Also the speed test isnt specifically designed to stop foreign ski instructors working in France.
It also ensures that
1) Any punter from Paris cant become a ski instructor for a couple of years in their 20s.
2) The vast numbers of French kids doing full-time race training have a fall-back full time career option.
Less than 1-2% will ever become full-time national racers, but the training means they could easily pass a speed test.
As far as I am aware this is actually the main aim of the speed test.
So yeah, the system might suck.
But the key point is that its also very tough for the French to become a ski instructor.
In France working as a ski instructor is seen as a well paid and respected profession.
Unlike in Switzerland / Austria / North America where its generally lower paid and something young people might do for a few years in their 20s.
However the French pay is much higher as a result - and that is why most ISTDs end up working their.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In respect of France isn't there a fair measure of business-protectionism rather than professional-protectionism, which I think is the point that FlyingStantoni made? Non-ESF ski schools are not allowed to operate in the same way as the ESF because various criteria are established to stop them. When a couple of non-ESF ski schools I know met those criteria the local authorities then seemed to change the criteria so the outcome was the same (ESF allowed to use more partly-qualified instructors, other ski schools not able to do that).
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
But the key point is that its also very tough for the French to become a ski instructor.
In France working as a ski instructor is seen as a well paid and respected profession. |
Haggis_Trap, it's not that tough to be allowed to teach skiing. It's tough to become fully qualified and do it for more than three years.
Until you're full cert in France the money is rubbish - it's not well paid.
You're right that much of the bar-setting is about limiting the numbers of people who can become full cert and teach. As I've said above, much of ESF is a glorified pyramid scheme.
But the fact remains that it's not that hard to be allowed to teach in France and, if I had a lesson off ESF in Morzine, then I'd have a 50% chance of getting taught by a stagiere who was no more qualified than me.
But this debate isn't about personal qualifications.
It's about the fact that I'm qualified to teach in France. But I can only work for a French ski school - not a British one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wayne, none of the examples you give are covered by EU law.
The crossing the road thing is covered by German law. Jay walking is an offence.
The French signed up to allow their citizens to be allowed to work in the UK. They should allow the same.
How they drink their coffee is their problem.
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There's a lot of protectionism in Austria too, it's just more underhand - just try finding 'all' the British operated ski schools based in Austrian resorts!
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| Quote: |
Wayne, none of the examples you give are covered by EU law.
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Exactly. What I was referring to was EU laws/regulation which it appears are not being followed. Of course countries and cultures are different. That's fine and in fact it's welcomed but what is wrong is when equality is challenged and businesses are unable to trade fairly with one another and individuals appear to have "different" rights based on their nationality rather than ability/qualifications. That can't be acceptable and should be challenged.
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Wayne, it may be their country but it's our EU. They may not want it but they've signed up to the EU and our opinions and desires are part of that. I really don't understand your horse slaughtering analogy. The point would actually be that if you saw something to gain by horse slaughtering in the UK and it was legal under EU rules to do so then you couldn't and shouldn't be prevented from doing it. Also it's merely your opinion (in my view incorrect, though admittedly dependent on what is achieved), that ridding the world of French ski instructor protectionism will only benefit a small number of people.
Haggis_Trap, and what about all those life-long stagieres who never have to pass the Eurotest? The French system is job protectionsim. Yes, protectionism against disinterested Parisiens, but mainly against interested foreigners. Of course the rules are then bent whenever it suits. I know someone with a BASI qualification who isn't good enough to pass L2 but who nevertheless holds equivalence because because. If British ski schools could hire "stagieres" the system would be well and truly shaken down, probably become more equitable and maybe even more transparent.
roga, true but going to work for an Austrian ski school is an altogether easier and more realistic proposition.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| roga, true but going to work for an Austrian ski school is an altogether easier and more realistic proposition. |
Generally true yes but I have heard stories from certain areas of Austria where the ski school will keep moving the goal posts in order to make it as difficult as possible for people. Mate of mine got his Anwarter (also has BASI 2), applied to I can't remember where and they said they'd employ him by all means with the L2 but he needed to get his Anwarter, as soon as he told them he had that they insisted they also neded some diploma from a local college/university ... he eventually gave up! In contrast go to Mayerhofen and as long as you can walk and talk at the same time (and possibly ski) they'll give you a job
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roga, yep, certain areas are closed shops but in certain areas, even a L1 can get a job!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hi to all who've contributed to this thread, I have a personal message from Fergus below:
“Thanks for all the input, it is really valuable to have comments on and personal experiences of the situation in Europe, and elsewhere for that matter. We do a lot of work to support the employability of Members and some of that is at a high political level and some of it is at the grass roots. Given all the different issues out there you’ll appreciate that there isn’t a simple single solution. We are also working with the EU Commission on snowsports qualifications following the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty which has resulted in a new area of activity focused on aligning 400 qualifications across the EU, one of them being snowsports. There is also work going on in the UK with the Home Nations governing bodies. One of the most powerful bits of work being done on behalf of BASI Members is by the Members themselves delivering excellence in their work, and so enhancing the reputation of BASI.”
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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well when i got my istd + carte pro i took it to work (esf valmeinier) with me and handed it over. Boss looked at my basi card then had to look it up online to see what basi was! eventually after a couple of phone calls, probably to mark vernier, it was all cleared though.
the truth is the french have set a standard to protect the jobs and livelihoods of thousands. and the uk as a rule complains about the government + powers that be not looking out for its own people when coming to jobs.
so we can fight the french over this which will benefit a few brits. if we do the money/lifestyle that is so irresistible will disappear overnight as ski schools get to employ cheap work, hence they make more money but the actual ski instructor losses in the long run. so the people that benefit will be those that run the brit ski schools:
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It disadvantages the ISTDs who run BASS Morzine. Despite 5 of the ISTDs there being BASI Trainers and 3 of them having competed for their country.
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i personally think this is set up to look like “it’s what the majority of members want”
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jjc, it's only those who are currently protected (9% of BASI members) who could potentially lose, if they don't either a) trust that their superior skills and qualifications will win through or b) look lively in promoting and developing themselves as businesses. Everyone else (the majority other 91% of members) could potentially benefit from getting to do something they'd like to do, even if only part-time at peak periods.
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You know it makes sense.
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Not really, its like the line from the incredibles: "everyones special is just a way of saying no one is". do we really want everywhere to be the same?
look at some of the treads where people are struggling to work on an ISIA as ski schools prefer level 2 for cheaper work. some of these people find it impossible to pay their seasonal rent on their wages. do we really want france to turn into that? if thats what people want go to work in austria, swiss, italy, usa, canada, andorra, new zealand or australia..... Why ruin the one good thing people aspire to do, make a proper living from instructing. the current format allows that, if people aren't good enough to get in they need to train or go elsewhere.
slikedges
I don't want to have to promote myself i do that enough with JJC. ESF sort me out with tonnes of work, sometimes to much, no one should ski instruct for 9 and a half hours in one day!
on top of that if level 2's and isia's can work in france whats the point of paying a ton of cash for the istd, will it become obsolete overnight? people just not bother as its not worth the hassle. and then what of those who have spent small fortunes training and testing to become istd's? will basi re endorse them for setting on standard one year and another the next?
I myself finished the level 2 course and went straight to work in france as a stagier but i did it fair and square, trying to change the rules to get what people want just makes the french think we have no confidence in the quality of basi instructors.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 9-01-11 9:45; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jjc wrote: |
Not really, its like the line from the incredibles: "everyones special is just a way of saying no one is". do we really want everywhere to be the same?
look at some of the treads where people are struggling to work on an ISIA as ski schools prefer level 2 for cheaper work. some of these people find it impossible to pay their seasonal rent on their wages. do we really want france to turn into that? if thats what people want go to work in austria, swiss, italy, usa, canada, andorra, new zealand or australia..... Why ruin the one good thing people aspire to do, make a proper living from instructing. the current format allows that, if people aren't good enough to get in they need to train or go elsewhere.
slikedges
I don't want to have to promote myself i do that enough with JJC. ESF sort me out with tonnes of work, sometimes to much, no one should ski instruct for 9 and a half hours in one day!
on top of that if level 2's and isia's can work in france whats the point of paying a ton of cash for the istd, will it become obsolete overnight? people just not bother as its not worth the hassle. and then what of those who have spent small fortunes training and testing to become istd's? will basi re endorse them for setting on standard one year and another the next?
I myself finished the level 2 course and went straight to work in france as a stagier but it did it fair and square, trying to change the rules to get what people want just makes the french think we have no confidence in the quality of basi instructors. |
jjc, sorry, in your position I do fully understand your viewpoint, but all your points are understandably just about defending your interest. There is of course job protectionism in every occupation to a greater or lesser extent. However, the public interest element is stronger in some than in others and therefore the justification for it is stronger in some than in others. The result is there must not be allowed to exist regulations to support a custom resulting in a disproportionate level of protectionism in the majority of occupations that exist where market forces should be allowed to prevail in determining quality and supply.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I see your point but market forces are only going to push the level of quality down and supply up. why employ an istd if there are level 2's that will provide the same service? if you look at the french their pass rate is in the 30-40% range for passes in the eurotest (alpe d'heuz 2010). Basi pass rate was 9%...
open the gates to the mass of instructors and quality can only go down, plus the amount of people just looking for a gap year or few weeks getting pissed every night and being hung over for work on the hill will sky rocket in france. the french are only protective because they have something worth protecting. market forces will only benefit those already in power not the membership as a whole. because if Level 2/ISIA can be employed there'd be now point working hard in the esf if i could get a few people to work for for me for cheap i might as well start a school up. British Association of Snowsports Instructors is therefore helping Ski School Owners not Snowsport Instructors by pushing further with this. I know know some people with level 2's will want to do the odd 2 weeks here and there but why take away what france has just to deliver something already provided all the way across the euro zone?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jjc, i agree 100% with you... The French system is the only place in the world where a ski instructor can make a decent wage and it also caters for the instructors who only want to do a few seasons. If it aint broke dont fix it. the only unfair element is that only French ski schools can have stagierres and BASI is trying to contest that which can only be a good thing for all basi members.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jjc, for clarity so I understand, what is it that BASI is doing specifically that you disagree with and feel will open the floodgates for lower level instructors working in France?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
setting up training centres in France with the sole intention of goading and antagonising the SNMSF into taking legal action, will do nothing to foster a jointly beneficial working relationship with either ESF or the SNMSF. In fact I would go further and suggest that it may undo some of the inter-association bridge building that took so long to accomplish.
I am sorry to have to say this, and I realises that in these days of the One Europe mentality it may be seen as outdated, but it is their country, not ours.
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Thats what i'm not a fan of, mainly the idea of legal action. Remember the ski school in megeve, took legal action so it could employ who it wants. I have a friend that missed out on their eurotest and now works there. I think that the training centres are a great idea just not in france, not a fan of each country going toe to toe in court where the eu will side like it has in megeve. even by not trying to open the metaphorical flood gates it could go that way further down the line and screw alot of people over. Most of the people i work with have kids and rely on their wages to support their families.
But then again that may not happen and everyone lives merrily ever after. just putting my 2 cents in, and i love a good old moan. feels good!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jjc wrote: |
| I think that the training centres are a great idea just not in france |
If the training centers get approval will they provide free training to their stagieres?
Currently a lot of Brit ski schools have a market in training various levels for higher level exams. If you are stagiere in a French ski school this is provided free. For example ESF Tignes is running European Mountain Safety this week before the stagieres go for thier exams later in the month. When i did my EMS safety i had to pay BASI £340 for training although i had already done all the training with ESF.
Whilst a lot of Brits don't like the idea of working for a French ski school (why?) they have to provide free training for their stagieres.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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jjc, yes, quality, at least at peak periods, may drop, but if so it will be what the market demands and regulation aimed at protecting the pay levels and easier life of a minority of the practitioners can't really be justified. Of course, British ski schools taking stagieres may not result in such a drop in standards if Test Technique is still demanded and this requirement is scrutinised and regulated in a manner similar to Eurotest. I'm afraid it doesn't matter what you do for a living, the goalposts are always moving, none of us can afford to rest on our laurels and not keep moving. 
stewart woodward, yes, very good point.
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slikedges,
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| the goalposts are always moving. |
Yep. One of my personal frustrations with assorted ski qualification systems.
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stewart woodward, Thats quite a good point - was having this exact discussion over lunch today with another instructor of a similar era to me - when we came through the system all the training we did was either with the ski school (Scotland, USA, NZ) & f.o.c, or with mates at the ski school going out before/after work & skiing/training together (Italy).
I'm not aware of any "exam prep" courses being provided on a commercial basis at that point in time.
Similarly i know quite a few people over the last 10 years who got their stagiaire status, intending to train for eurotest/ISTD exams, worked all hours for 3/4 years, and then couldn't pass their exams... seems to me people have lost the ability to get the balance between work & training "on the job" rather than shelling out for specific trainiing... (and yes I did have seasons where I didn't earn lots during this time, but hey, a bit of commitment ain't a bad thing).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, i think we will disagree on this one. maybe i am too protective and they should open it all up eventually. but i think i'd cry and then go coaching instead.
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jjc, fair point, however, the result of the legal action is not likely to be opening the gates for lower level instructors is it? As far as I'm aware BASI doesn't intend to campaign for anyone other than ISTDs to be allowed to work freely in France, other than a handful of stagiares within British run training centres. That won't be enough people to have an impact on wages I'd have though, as I understand you can't have more than one stagiare per fully qualified ISTD working within the school? In addition they are also campaigning for other disciplines to be regcognised within their own right, eg snowboarders. This isn't lowering the standard, for snowboarding there is now a Level 4 ISTD (although I don't think this is very well promoted at the moment).
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