 Poster: A snowHead
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Overheard on a resort bus:
"On the first day they took me to a steep red and I side slipped down it all day.
On the second day they took me to a shallow blue, set me going and then told me to move to the side-slip position, which made me stop. We tried it a few more times, and then in the other direction, and then I could ski parallel."
Myth or truth? I can imagine it might well work (albeit blimmin' scary the first time you point those skis downhill).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wonder who "they" were? Sideslipping while facing one direction, putting in a quick pivot and then sideslipping while facing the other direction is not really parallel skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Is now the right time to mention Harald Harb?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Everyone should want a snowplough in their toolbox but moving from snowplough to parallel does seem to cause a lot of problems.
Maybe because the people I have watched havn't had many proper lessons.
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| Mike3000 wrote: |
| Everyone should want a snowplough in their toolbox but moving from snowplough to parallel does seem to cause a lot of problems. |
That might be because some ski schools dwell on the snowplough all bloody week until it becomes a crutch you can't let go of. That's my recollection of it anyway. A better way might be "here's the snowplough, got it? good! you might need that for 5 minutes per week. let's move on to actually skiing now" on day 1.
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You should move on from the snowplough when you are able to balance more fully on the outside ski, and therefore you don't need the inside ski held in a plough shape to stop yourself from falling over. Some people get to this point quickly, other people take much more time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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... don't get me started. Every time I hear people on lifts / buses etc talk about 'the experts in the chalet / hotel / bar/ restaurant..... say / do this and that' I just think of the blind potentially leading the blind. Nuff said.
There is a reason why the SP is used and also it comes to many when they understand that technically the difference between skiing in parallel and snowplough technically is virtually the same. Even experienced skiers probably use the snowplough many times a day even subconsciously.
There are occasional people that can FTTP (Fast Track to Parallel) but it is rare and the whole point of systems such as BASI / NZSIA / CSIA / PSIA / APSI etc etc etc is to give the instructors the tools to teach the skills that 99.9% of skiers will use to the max whilst allowing a safe and enjoyable experience. That is why the GLM (Graduated Length Method) for example (thanks NickB for also mentioning Harald Harb) never really caught on OR is very narrow with the appeal and how it catches / did catch on.
It is also interesting to note that if 'they' took him / her to a steep red on the first day (if that truthfully is what happened) then I cannot think of ANY ski instructor that would have been insured if something had happened. So I suspect 'they' were non instructors.
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| paulio wrote: |
| That might be because some ski schools dwell on the snowplough all bloody week until it becomes a crutch you can't let go of. That's my recollection of it anyway. A better way might be "here's the snowplough, got it? good! you might need that for 5 minutes per week. let's move on to actually skiing now" on day 1. |
Hear, hear! Exactly what I was about to type! You need a snowplough in your bag of tricks for sure, but why ski schools keep it as the main turning technique for so long I don't know.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I seem to recall another method that involved learning to hockey-stop in skates at an ice-rink, before actually hitting the snow. Aparently, this would avoid the snowplough and get the learner straight into parallel turns (using the same hockey stop learned on skates to turn).
Wish I could remember exactly where I came across this method - but I guess the fact that it never took off, maybe has something to do with it's effectiveness, or lack there of (?!)
[Edited for spelling]
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 11-01-12 17:54; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ap96 wrote: |
| Hear, hear! Exactly what I was about to type! You need a snowplough in your bag of tricks for sure, but why ski schools keep it as the main turning technique for so long I don't know. |
I've don't think I've ever seen an instructor tell his client that "you are not allowed to bring your skis together so they are parallel, you must keep them in a snowplough". IME instructors are pleased when clients are able to match their skis at some point during the turn as it means they can ski a little bit quicker.
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| abj wrote: |
| maybe has something to do with it's effectiveness. |
Sounds like a great way to teach clients to make Z-shape turns all day long, and fundamentally hampering their skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| abj wrote: |
| maybe has something to do with it's effectiveness. |
Sounds like a great way to teach clients to make Z-shape turns all day long, and fundamentally hampering their skiing. |
+1 agreed
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I certainly spent a miserable number of days with my hands on my stupid knock-knees. I was talking specifically about the perceived difficulty getting from snowploughing to parallel - not disputing that snowplough should be taught. The problem is you get taught from scratch to do one thing, and do it quite well, until it becomes the ONE TRUE WAY of turning and (especially) stopping. Then on day 6 the ski school man goes "right, enough of that. Stand up straight, skis together please" and it's completely terrifying, and you keep reverting to the plough like an S&M safety word.
If this is true:
| Quote: |
| technically the difference between skiing in parallel and snowplough technically is virtually the same |
, then could the two techniques be taught a bit more in - er - parallel, rather than serially, to prevent that kind of thing happening?
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, yup agreed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As a keen watcher of people from chairlifts, though knowing nothing about instructing, I'd say there are a lot of skiers round the mountain who look as if they've moved to what they fondly imagine is "parallel skiing" without having grasped the basics of making the skis do the work.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ap96 wrote: |
| paulio wrote: |
| That might be because some ski schools dwell on the snowplough all bloody week until it becomes a crutch you can't let go of. That's my recollection of it anyway. A better way might be "here's the snowplough, got it? good! you might need that for 5 minutes per week. let's move on to actually skiing now" on day 1. |
Hear, hear! Exactly what I was about to type! You need a snowplough in your bag of tricks for sure, but why ski schools keep it as the main turning technique for so long I don't know. |
As a non expert I agree, it can be frustrating seeing people using a rigidly fixed, wide plough as a their only technique after a full week in the mountains. But I can see Rob@Rar's point that if you can't ski balance on your outside ski you've really got no choice but to plough.
The lessons I liked early on were the ones where the instructors explained this and then did drills to force us out of the plough such a skiing while lifting the tails of the inside ski etc. rather than endless plowing until everyone could do perfect snowplow turns, rigidly snaking down the mountain like a bunch of daleks.
One piece of advice that helped me was to "think like pedaling a bike", constantly switching the pressure from one foot to the other.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| paulio wrote: |
If this is true:
| Quote: |
| technically the difference between skiing in parallel and snowplough technically is virtually the same |
, then could the two techniques be taught a bit more in - er - parallel, rather than serially, to prevent that kind of thing happening? |
Skiers move on from plough to plough-parrallel and then to parallel when they are able to balance reasonably well on the outside ski earlier and earlier in the turn. This is often a function of skiing a little bit more quickly while still making a controlled turn. It should be a seamless and natural progression from keeping your skis in a plough all the way around the urn, to matching them so they are parallel before the end of the turn, then matching them earlier and earlier until the plough disappears. For me the focus should be on making the movements which make it easier to balance on the outside ski rather than artificially trying to force the skis together. Plough and parallel aren't really two separate techniques.
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Snowplough is a tool, but it's quite sore to hold for any length of time. I find it useful to stop when going too slowly for a parallel stop or on a slightly downhill lift queue. Really don't use it that much otherwise. I quickly learned that it is utterly ineffective for stopping from any great speed and pretty useless to prevent the gaining of speed on a steepish slope. Much prefer varying the shape of my turns to control my speed. Sideslipping seems much more useful out and about, and it hurts a lot less (particularly knees..)
Didn't do much on plough (as went from ski in a day to week on glacier to class 1 in winter and avoided the week of ouchy snowplough). Knowing how to stop and that you can stop quickly is the biggest barrier to going fast for a lot of people, so it was learning a decent hockey stop that meant that I was willing to get enough speed to learn to enjoy skiing!
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| paulio wrote: |
If this is true:
| Quote: |
| technically the difference between skiing in parallel and snowplough technically is virtually the same |
, then could the two techniques be taught a bit more in - er - parallel, rather than serially, to prevent that kind of thing happening? |
Skiers move on from plough to plough-parrallel and then to parallel when they are able to balance reasonably well on the outside ski earlier and earlier in the turn. This is often a function of skiing a little bit more quickly while still making a controlled turn. It should be a seamless and natural progression from keeping your skis in a plough all the way around the urn, to matching them so they are parallel before the end of the turn, then matching them earlier and earlier until the plough disappears. For me the focus should be on making the movements which make it easier to balance on the outside ski rather than artificially trying to force the skis together. Plough and parallel aren't really two separate techniques. |
+1
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Personally I am always looking to move people towards parallel as soon as they can do SP.... you learn to balance against the outside ski so you can steer the inside ski to parallel... those are the two fundamental differences betweem SP and parallel... as rob@rar says above if clients start coming parallel for the correct reasons (not twisting the hips for example or FORCING the skis parallel by pulling the legs together in an unbalanced fashion) then BRILLIANT that is REALLY REALLY great news but the reason why some people think ski schools dwell on the SP is because without the fundamentals of a good SP there is little point in forcing the student to the next level otherwise bad habits will only grow in size. People often find it difficult to understand that 'expert' skiing is only very good fundamentals developed to a very high level whereby more and more 'variables' and tweaks can be added in.
So
| Quote: |
Quote:
technically the difference between skiing in parallel and snowplough technically is virtually the same
, then could the two techniques be taught a bit more in - er - parallel, rather than serially, to prevent that kind of thing happening |
as far as the official progressions are concerned then they try to make them as seamless as possible but you can only work with what is in front of you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Doesn't it just start to come naturally?
I'm a boarder and have never been on skis in my life, but my 6yo daughter is starting to do greens, blues and the less steep bits of reds without snowploughing (apart from when she's coming to a stop).
She's skied about 7 weeks since she was 3 and the last 2 weeks we've been she's come out with us. Her last lessons were snowplough turning so no-one has taught her to try and keep her skis parallel, now that I've noticed her doing it I've tried to explain what I understand of it and she's doing it more and more.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sounds to me whoever you heard on the bus was someone talking bull. I love skiing but why do so many skiers feel the need to bull$hit about their ability or how good they are at picking it up?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| TotallyBoard wrote: |
| Doesn't it just start to come naturally? |
To some people, but not everyone. A bad instructor can get in the way of the natural progression, a good instructor can aid that progression.
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Some of it is bound to be down to crowd control.
You can keep 10 people going in a straight line down most pistes holding a snowplough in a straight line. Try and teach them all parallel from the first minute and you could have 10 people travelling at much higher speed in many different directions with no ability to stop themselves other than to dive to one side and risk injury or somehow miraculously develop an ability to hockey stop that they don't have on their first day.
I reckon you could teach this way to experienced iceskaters or rollerbladers. That might be the limit of potential audience. It may be possible, but I suspect really small groups and focused teaching with a lot of control from the instructor would be required.
I learned to ski one hour at a time over several weeks - on the first hour we learned to go straight down a very short and easy section with a go at snowploughing. On the second hour we learned snowploughing and a bit of snowplough turns. On the third hour we did snowplough turns. From there everyone was working towards step turns and getting to parallel skiing. It was very clear from the start that the snowplough was not an end point for skiiers, and everyone kind of worked from there, falling over a bit, but eventually getting to the point of linked parallel turns (albeit quite shaky in many cases) within about 6-8 hours tuition.
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| As a keen watcher of people from chairlifts, though knowing nothing about instructing, I'd say there are a lot of skiers round the mountain who look as if they've moved to what they fondly imagine is "parallel skiing" without having grasped the basics of making the skis do the work. |
Drives me nuts wtching people who just don't move. They get in their skiing position at the top of the slope and remain frozen until the bottom, while skis are turned using the magical powers of the arris, shoulders or something else.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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When my dad learnt to ski in Zürs in the 50's, they set everyone down a slope that happened to have a pile of cow manure at the bottom of it. That soon perfected their snow plough's!
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Poster: A snowHead
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TotallyBoard, y'know 6 is the perfect age to start her boarding...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, Steve Angus, Makes sense, but my experience of taking lessons and talking to people is that this is often kept secret from people and its seems they are sadistically being made to learn perfect snowploughs because its a level you must reach before you are allowed to know how to do it properly. I've never heard anyone recount the fact that snowploughing and parallel are exactly the same technique, one just being faster than the other.
What worked very well for me (in that it meant I only had to snowplough for a few hours rather than a few days) was as soon a I could link snowploughs I was told to forget about the inside ski and concentrate on getting my weight on the outside ski.
All the important turn shape stuff came later.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Flet©h wrote: |
| What worked very well for me (in that it meant I only had to snowplough for a few hours rather than a few days) was as soon a I could link snowploughs I was told to forget about the inside ski and concentrate on getting my weight on the outside ski. |
That's what I teach, although I think of it as balancing on the outside ski rather than just putting weight on it (it needs to be a dynamic movement rather than just statically standing on top of it). Providing you are making rounded turns it is best to sort of forget about the inside ski. It will soon look after itself.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just as an aside, teaching experienced skiers to make good, precise snow-plough turns is very useful. Really gets people back to the fundamentals of skiing. The weaknesses that you see in "normal" skiing are usually magnified when you try to make decent plough turns. If you can fix it in the plough turn you will have fixed it for the rest of the mountain.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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FIFY.
I've seen that article before, in fact I think it might have been linked in a very similar discussion to this one. It's pants.
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A good instructor will know when a pupil is ready to move on from Snowplough turns, these days it should be possible for most adults to manage this after no more than a couple of days lessons depending on how well the pupil picks stuff up, there are occasions when no matter how good an instructor is the pupil just doesn't get it, have only ever seen this once, where a particular lady was determined to learn to ski, but she had some kind of problem going beyond snowplough turns, three good instructors I know tried to get her to progress but none managed it, personally I'm convince there where other issues at play.
Children especially young kids really need to be taught slightly differently, better to get them used to skiing slowly and gradually build up the speed than allow them to go haring off down a slope faster than their instructor 
Knowing how to snowplough and being able to do so well is an essential part of skiing, it may just help save a life or at the very least allow you or someone else to get down a mountain safely.
Case in point, a number of years ago I came across a crying young woman with her boyfriend on an easy blue run in the middle of a snow storm, it was her first day ever skiing and she had had just one lesson that morning before her boyfriend decided to take her up the mountain  Be that as it may she was disorientated couldn't cope with hardly being able to see 20 ft in front of her and was really unsure of what to do, I solved the problem by very simply allowing her to hold onto me as I snowploughed down the slope and onwards to the next station where she and her (possibly now ex) boyfriend got on the train to go down, not a problem for me because I had the strength and control to be able to guide us both down in an easy snowplough, if I'd not been taught to snowplough that would have been impossible, I've said this before but no harm repeating it, teaching today seems aimed at getting people onto the mountain as quickly as possible and doing parallel or carved turns as soon as you can, for peoples general enjoyment this is no bad thing, especially in areas with wide well groomed pistes, the problems occur when people get out of their depth and don't have the skills that used to be taught.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 11-01-12 18:51; edited 1 time in total
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| TotallyBoard wrote: |
Doesn't it just start to come naturally?
I'm a boarder and have never been on skis in my life, but my 6yo daughter is starting to do greens, blues and the less steep bits of reds without snowploughing (apart from when she's coming to a stop).
She's skied about 7 weeks since she was 3 and the last 2 weeks we've been she's come out with us. Her last lessons were snowplough turning so no-one has taught her to try and keep her skis parallel, now that I've noticed her doing it I've tried to explain what I understand of it and she's doing it more and more. |
There is a good chance that her skis are sliding into a position whereby they are visually parallel to each other - this does not mean she is actively steering the skis into parallel... that is further confirmed to me by the fact you say she snowploughs to a stop thus that is her method of stopping as opposed to steering the feet parallel to come to a stop. Given speed and the fact that kids have the subconcious lack of fear they do not mind feeling unbalanced and the natural ability to remain upright when the skis move into a parallel position. Ask yourself a MUCH more useful question - are her feet inside her hip line or outside... I bet they will be outside them... therefore not really in parallel.... I will put money on it that when she gets older she will actually start using the snowplough almost all the time unless she has development to actively learn how to ski parallel.
For example:
The kid on the lookers left and the kid at the front are both snowplough skiers (if you took that photo one frame later the kid on the left would be in a 'parallel' position) - it is just that the kid on the lookers left due to the camber of the slope, a little speed and momentum has found the inside ski (of the turn) has come into a parallel position... but both kids need a lot more work to be able to actively balance on the outside ski and therefore learn to actively steer the inside ski and therefore truly learn parallel turns.
Also as kids are 'top' heavy they use the snowplough as a robust way of supporting their top heavy body mass AND as they lack in relation to body mass much strength the snowplough is used as a supporting 'tripod' position. Moving kids from SP to parallel is in my experience probably one of the biggest challenges an instructor faces.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ski evolutif
... nothing new
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C'mon over to the darkside, our stuff makes sense.
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the snowboarding equivalent of learning with a decent snowplough turn, and learning what happens when you shift your weight, is doing a good controlled "falling leaf" on both edges, isn't it? A good basis for building on.
AND, I've seen interesting posts on SHs from snowboarders who taught themselves, then got their techniques totally deconstructed going on a course with Neil mcNab. It's also possible to see a whole lot of rubbish snowboarders from the chairlift. when you see a good one, it's like chalk and cheese.
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FAQ
whaddya like eh? 
