Learn To Ski in 4 Days Method

A snowHead

I found this article by Dave Siegel, written back in 1997. He describes a method by which, he claims, you can learn to ski any groomed terrain in 4 days.

Day 1: Learn edge control on ice skates.
Day 2: Learn to hockey stop on ice skates.
Day 3: Learn to effectively side slip on steep groomed terrain. (No turning).
Day 4: Finally learn to turn on skis.

He places a lot of emphasis on teaching edge control and forward shin pressure.

http://hs34.order-vault.net/~admin160/diary/jan.23.97.html (Part I)
http://hs34.order-vault.net/~admin160/diary/jan.30.97.html (Part II)

I'm inclined to think that this might actually work for pretty athletic people.

What do you think?

(This is a repost of the same message I posted on forum.ski.com.au)

A snowHead

Well, I haven't followed through on your links- but younger son learned very quickly with ski-evolutif at Les Arcs (do they still teach that?) even though most of his classes were in French Shocked

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

isusanin - welcome to snowHeads!

Yes, there are two distinct approaches to teaching skiing from scratch:

1. Via the conventional snowplough, snowplough turn.
2. Direct to parallel

I used to teach (1) primarily, but did a bit of experimentation with ski evolutif - as Nick mentions - very short skis, skidded parallel turns. It short-circuits the process, but has its own drawbacks.

It works fine, but the scary thing for beginners tends to be entering and crossing the fall-line. That's one reason why the snowplough turn endures - it limits speed constantly. And the snowplough is a valuable technique in skiing anyway.

Modern skis achieve very rapid progress via the snowplough to achieve parallel skiing, so the time advantage of ski evolutif isn't that great anymore.

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I'm not sure how up to date this is. I can't imagine going as a beginner to a steepish slope and expecting to side-slip it. I find that carving skis are harder to side slip than the old long planks, as you tend to catch the edges more.

If they want to spend a day falling onto their hands/butt/head then they should start boardin'!

The assertion that 2/3rds of instructors are not very good skiers is a bit OTT IMHO. He also seems to live in an ideal world where, as a novice, you take a chair up to the top of a steep groomed run "without any moguls" and side slip down. What planet does this guy live on? Maybe in the US there is such a thing as a steep mogul free run, but there is a danger in having read those instructions, a bad experience will put you off for life.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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That's interesting, pendodave. I wasn't aware that it had been dropped. I wonder when this occurred.

It's also interesting that you have such a positive memory of learning by that method. Even back in 1975 I was being trained as an instructor in carved snowplough turn technique by Ali Ross. BASI didn't recognise ski evolutif/graduated length method at all.

In my view it's good to have competing teaching methods. The world's big enough to accommodate different ideas.

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After all it is free

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "stem christie"?

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SimonN, + because you put the uphil skion the edge the turn actually begins both more quickly and more positively. Very Happy

Ski Evolutif was a really good idea, but a logistical nightmare for the shops. Who compensated them for having to have 3 times the equipment for hire??? The main problem I saw with the system (have used it myself on occasions), was that they encouraged rotation, which later had to be unlearnt. Otherwise - bl**dy good idea IMO.

isusanin, Welcome to snowheads. I think it's possible to teach someone to ski blue groomed runs quite easily in 4 days - IF THEY'RE NOT AFRAID!!

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Guys,

What's your take on learning edge control by learning to hockey stop on ice skates, as the author of the article suggests. How many of you can actually do a hockey stop on ice, and if you can, how does the skill translate to skiing?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm a beginner, and wonder if learning to parallel/hockey stop on ice skates will help me get better on skis.

Thanks,

And yeah, I'm new here Cool

pendodave, that would be "Ski the French Way". I still have the video, monoskiing and discos rule Laughing

manifest, welcome to

snowheads

.

You know it makes sense.

pendodave, hubby and I learnt using evolutif in Flaine in 1995, we got on very well with it too, and friends were amazed at our progress.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

manifest, Welcome to snowHead

I'm not a teacher but I can't see anything wrong with a hockey stop ... To do so would mean that you unweight the edges and throw them around... Sounds quite useful to me as a methods of stopping and is want most people do when stopping quickly

A snowHead

I played ice hockey 2-5 days/week every winter from the ages of 7 to 18, and I don't think it was a particularly large help with learning to ski. Skating and skiing are extremely different - besides the obvious of different surface, inclined vs flat, etc. there is also the very significant point that when on ice skates you're on a single contact point, whereas on skiis you're on a roughly 5 foot edge. In my opinion you will learn much more regarding skiing in 2 days on skiis than in 2 days on skates.
Also, who is really going to learn edge control on skates after just one day on skates?

A snowHead

manifest, I can hockey stop, I used to skate pretty regularly - wouldn't say it helps particularly with skiing, except in general balance terms...Personally I'd stick with the traditional method of learning via plough/christie - seems to me to stand you in better stead for learning to deal with steeps, and carving...

aj xx

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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I did hear from one instructor that if you skip the wedge stage, you'll have to eventually go back and learn it, but I didn't get the reason why. How exactly does plough/christie help prepare you for dealing with steeps and carving?

From what I've been reading, it seems that the parallel slides (side-slips) are important for steeps, and you can't even dream of carving in the plough position. Is this wrong?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hywel, in brief, if your upper body is turning as you do then you suffer from a problem with rotation, especially if you are turning your upper body to initiate the turn. The ideal that you should be aiming for is that your shoulders should be aiming down the fall line at all times. The drill that I've always been taught is to hold your poles parallel in front of your body at arms length and keep them facing down the fall line as you ski down the slope. Start on easier slopes, and gradually move up.

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I tend to get down narrow, steep bits of off-piste using a wedge and side-slipping alternately.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Kramer, I noticed that my outside/downhill ski tends to be ahead of the inside ski, which is the opposite of most (non-telemark) skiers that I watched going down the slope. Could it be a sign that I'm overrotating? Since I went skiing only twice in my life, I want to make sure I'm not developing some bad habits...
Puzzled

After all it is free

I must say I'm intrigued by methods of learning to ski that don't progress from plough through stem. The ski evolutif and "international parallel technique" methods are old examples, but it has surprised me that with blades and carving skis etc there haven't been more concerted attempts to popularize systems that teach parallel carving without going through the traditional progression. I am in no doubt in my own mind that having to progress from some kind of wedge has been a problem in my own skiing, though I'm equally convinced that the situations where some kind of wedge technique is useful are both common and diverse.

manifest, firstly I have to say that I'm not an instructor, so that should qualify my answer somewhat. My understanding is that if your downhill ski is in front of your uphill ski then there is something wrong with your stance as it would mean that your hips are facing across the mountain, rather than down the fall line as they should be. I'm not sure what to do to rectify this.

slikedges, surely these days we have blades to make it easier for people to learn to parallel carve if they can't do it on skis?

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Kramer, if your shoulders face down the fall line at all times you will have great difficulty in steering a turn to completion (i.e. maybe even back up the slope). That "old school" face down the valley stuff tends to be a little restrictive/prescriptive.

isusanin, carving snowploughs are a useful way to learn the feel of what an edged ski will do, as long as you make sure that only 1 ski is carving at a time. Shocked

manifest, can you be a bit more specific about where in the turn your outside ski is in front of your inside ski?

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Alan Craggs, point taken.

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Does anyone know anything about the copyright aspect of old videos that are no longer available, makers defunct etc.? I could post a couple of clips from "Ski the French Way" but I wouldn't want to upset any followers of Peter Stuyvesant.

Just been sking red runs today with 2 of my kids - 13 and 16- they can handle steep(ish) stuff with confidence and can stop on their edges "scater" style. Both can handle inlne skates well the older uses them daily on his paper round and his overall edge control is good. This is after just 1 week of intermediate lessons.

What they can't do yet is convert this into the kind of stylish carving quick turn skiing of the locals. I guess that is a matter of time.

Boyo

You know it makes sense.

Kramer, yes, but I would've thought some enterprising person would've seen the convergence (longer blades/shorter skis) and tried to put together a system for beginners using say 120cm blades starting with parallels on gentle slopes and ploughing only to stop.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

ajhainey, I think my downhill shoulder also comes forward, so I guess it's a problem with not facing downhill while turning. I guess the hips should not rotate either, right? I'm puzzled as to why my instructor never pointed this out to me. The only thing I was told to do is to keep my hands in front to ensure forward balance.

A snowHead

manifest, again a lesson is what you need, different types of turns will have differing body reactions to balance, but generally the feet lead the body into a turn.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

manifest, How long have you been skiing? Quite often instructors don't worry about getting your hips/shoulders moving a little more independantly until you've been going a while...maybe they were focusing on other things Happy

Keeping you over the fronts of the skis may well have been more important? Plus the hardocre 'hips down hill at all times' has been softened nowadays as someone else pointed out - you need to be looking where you are going while carving(!) so it's a bit more of a compromise position anyway.

The old exercise for 'fixing' this btw was to ski with your poles held horizontally between your hands - and then focus on keeping them steady and facing downhill all the time - not sure if it's been replaced with something else nowadays (most of my lessons were back in the dark ages) but it might help to at least give it a try? I do think more lessons is probably the right answer though - easier to get it right now, than go back and fix it later wink

aj xx

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p.s manifest - almost everyone turns like this to begin with btw (overrotating and ending up with hips/shoulders uhill) so don't worry too much! In fact if you catch most average 'holiday' intermediates(like me wink

) on a slope where they are a little out of their depth you'll see them do much the same thing - swing a shoulder uphill a bit or sort of 'drop' it in towards the hill as they find their balance at the end of a turn - I know I do it when turning left sometimes...More time and more lessons is the answer - just wanted to point out it is a normal stage to go through!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

ajhainey, this is my first winter skiing. I went a couple of times so far and can go down any green run using both the wedge and parallel turns. My technique is obviously bad, and I can feel it. I will soon be going on a 4-day ski trip, and just wanted to see what I can do to improve. I had 2 group lessons and I felt the second one was particularly useless (athough the first one was very informative). Due to a tight budget, I won't be taking any more lessons in the near future, so your tips are very handy wink

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I have just come back and took a week of group ski lessons.

We were taught the traditional Snowplough start and then progressed to stem christie (thats not what they called it but the description fits) and then moved on to parallel turns.

The only thing I found annoying about it was they start by telling you something and then end up contradicting it when they teach you the next step. I honestly wish we had progressed more quickly to parallel turns because I found it easier. The only people who didn't were those who were nervous about going faster, but as long as you can get over that it is a lot less hard work.

I think the point about learning from Ice Skating is interesting. I skated on Hockey boots a lot when I was younger and found that a lot of the techniques that I learnt from that I was able to apply to skiing, so much so that I progressed a lot more quickly than the other people in my lessons, but only when we had progressed to parallel skiing.

manifest, My tip to you is that the most useful thing I was told is remember to make it flow. If your turns don't flow it won't feel comfortable and you won't gain confidence and in my mind, skiing is all about confidence.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

kosciosco, the snowplough is an excellent backstop in tricky situations, so it's not really a case of "contradicting" or unlearning. It's just that you need more than one tool in your locker. Sounds like you had a good time - are you hooked? snowHead

After all it is free

kosciosco, just saw you're other thread - welcome to the club of ski-obsessives!

laundryman, Thanks for the welcome.

I understand what you are saying about the snowplough. It wasn't that which was a contradiction so much as the amount of movement in the body - when you start they teach you to be quite stiff, as you progress you learn to become more flexible.

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IMO if you felt that there was any "contradiction" involved when "progressing" from plough to parallel then either they were saying/doing the wrong things or they were just not very good at explaining it to you. Also IMO nobody is "taught" to be stiff - but it is unusual to find beginners who can be loose and flexible. "Stiffness" tends to be one of the biggest hurdles on the "intermediate plateau" in my experience. I would agree that many demonstrations of technique look "stiff", which may give the observer the unfortunate false idea that they should emulate the "stiffness".

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Learn To Ski in 4 Days Method

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