 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There is no universally right or wrong fore/aft balance state. Each form has it's situational value. Perhaps it would be good for us to discuss that. Where would you use each of the above variations? What are the inherent pros and cons of each.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't consciously use a fore or aft position, I'm mostly trying to find a centre point without being too uncomfortable about moving around on my skis.
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Just had the beginnes doing this tonight.
Skis off, try to feel how fart you can go forwards, backwards, just right.
Skis on and some of them end up waaaaayyyyyy out in the back seat.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| thirty06 wrote: |
| ... fart you can go forwards ... |
Just preserving this for posterity. 
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| thirty06 wrote: |
| Skis off, try to feel how fart you can go forwards, |
Tee hee
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Ah damn iPhone slow typing skills. You got there first.
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While you guys ponder this topic, here's a montage that shows usage of various fore/aft balance states through the course of a single turn, to help the thought process along.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FastMan, fore to start the turn, aft to finish it. Usually thought to be the fastest way to ski?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| FastMan, fore to start the turn, aft to finish it. Usually thought to be the fastest way to ski? |
Bingo, rob@rar.
Now, what does fore at the start of a turn do for the recreational skier? When/why should they use it? Question is to everyone.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Forwards for the start of the turn (to help the tips initiate), and I guess if you're racing finishing the turn a little back would help give you an extra spurt of speed (providing you can get forwards again in time for the next turn) - not sure if this is something you'd aim for in 'normal' skiing though?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Forwards for the start of the turn (to help the tips initiate) |
Agree.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| ... finishing the turn a little back would help give you an extra spurt of speed |
Does it give you extra speed or does it unload the front of the skis so you straighten up more smoothly as you come out of the turn, scrubbing off less speed than you would if the tips were still engaged?
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I remember getting a lesson, for a couple of young friends who were going to race interschools, with a CSCF high level race coach. This was the first thing they worked on. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Forwards for the start of the turn (to help the tips initiate) |
Agree.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| ... finishing the turn a little back would help give you an extra spurt of speed |
Does it give you extra speed or does it unload the front of the skis so you straighten up more smoothly as you come out of the turn, scrubbing off less speed than you would if the tips were still engaged? |
Another agree on "forward to initiate".....
back at the end; I'd suggest it depends on what sort of carve we are doing?
Cross-thru then; the legs have to bend and the torso go somewhere and unless we have very soft boots (and long tendons) we will go back somewhat; less so in a cross over, but still some aft..
My view is that when we come back we add pressure to the aft edge of the ski and so hold the back of the ski more on the turn and I think I agree that we release the front edge of the skis. But we need to get forward to start the next turn (unless we are schussing).
I'd think that we MUST be forward to start the new turn as we need to engage the new forward edges; so I assume we are coming forward at the end of the previous turn; not the beginning of the next.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This is where the divergence between 'riding' your skis and 'driving' your skis occurs and where there's going to be some conflict between the instructor's need to teach control skills and the sport's enthusiast's craving to eke out the equipment's enhancement to their technique. I was genuinely amazed in an earlier thread where an instructor appeared unable to comprehend the difference between passive absorption of a bent ski's tensile energy and the active input to bend and use the energy engendered to improve their skiing.
Once again, the need to use fore and aft weight transfer on a board gives insight into how to get the best from your skis.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| little tiger wrote: |
| I remember getting a lesson, for a couple of young friends who were going to race interschools, with a CSCF high level race coach. This was the first thing they worked on. |
I teach it as part work I'll do on fore/aft balance but I think it falls in to the category of "happens instinctively if you're doing other things well, so let's not get too hung up about it as time for developing your skiing is limited surely there are other things which are more important?".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sleipnir, that's very cool. Thank you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sleipnir, Great video, though I think Bode needs to work on his inner tip lead.
Runs to leave the room 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Forwards for the start of the turn (to help the tips initiate) |
Agree.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| ... finishing the turn a little back would help give you an extra spurt of speed |
Does it give you extra speed or does it unload the front of the skis so you straighten up more smoothly as you come out of the turn, scrubbing off less speed than you would if the tips were still engaged? |
I haven't been trained up to this sort of level, so I'm just hypothesising... but to me when my weight comes too far back, it feels like the ski wants to squirt forwards and up - like if you press down on the back of a melon seed.
It's not something I do, I just wondered (if what I'm thinking is correct) if it may have an application in racing?
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The first thing is develop is awareness of fore\aft position.
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anarchicsaltire,
I think Bodie can lead his tips where ever he likes 
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| Masque wrote: |
This is where the divergence between 'riding' your skis and 'driving' your skis occurs,,,,,
Once again, the need to use fore and aft weight transfer on a board gives insight into how to get the best from your skis. |
Bingo. This is what it's about; learning how to exploit all the available performance potential of the skis.
Also, learning to perform in various fore/aft states of balance greatly enhances a person's recovery skills. Comfort zones expand, and thus getting momentarily jostled out of a desired state of balance is no longer perceived as something so scary it keeps you from attempting new skills, new techniques, and more challenging terrain.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
I haven't been trained up to this sort of level, so I'm just hypothesising... but to me when my weight comes too far back, it feels like the ski wants to squirt forwards and up - like if you press down on the back of a melon seed.
It's not something I do, I just wondered (if what I'm thinking is correct) if it may have an application in racing? |
Excellent observation, clarky999. When teaching students fore/aft balance skills, this is one of the things I help them self discover. You've discovered it on your own. Have you also discovered how it affects how hard your leg muscles have to work?
Yes, a strong racing application. When executed and timed properly, it can provide a fast finish of a turn.
Interestingly, Bode and Phil emphasize in the video how important it is to limit the aft and pursue the fore. They know that the average recreational skier suffers from being aft, and doesn't generally have great need for the benefits it provides. But in the race course, Bode lived on his tails.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| The first thing is develop is awareness of fore\aft position. |
Absolutely!!! I call it base of the foot awareness. Where the pressure is located, across ball and heel. Developing this sense allows for real time self monitoring. Can't fix it if you don't know it's broken. Can't use different states to milk performance from the skis if you don't have a keen sense of knowing what state of balance you're in at any particular moment. If you're sense of balance states is dull, you're just flying blind.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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So I put this to a CSIA4 demo team member, and another CSIA4 - both disagreed with any idea of being fore at the start of the turn (or aft to finish it) in anything but specific racing application. Thoughts? Their general point was that a fore balance engages the front of the ski and sacrifices grip at the tail, and brings the pivot point forward, whereas being centred allows pressure along the whole ski (and decambers it as designed). I'm expected to be constantly centre balanced for CSIA3 criteria, as far as I know. I understand the benefits of being fore or aft like crossing under and jetting for speed etc, just interesting that it's advocated here.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DaveC, Fore to start a turn is a very useful tool for the recreational skier on steeper terrain, for the very outcome reasons your CSIA4's cited.
The top half of a turn, from initiation to apex, is where acceleration (speed increase) happens. The longer you linger in that portion of the turns, the more speed will increase. By moving to the front of the ski, the shovels get hyper loaded and bend more, thus sharpening the turn and reducing the acceleration period. It's an excellent speed control tool.
If you move forward far enough, it can also have the tail displacement effect your friends explained to you. This intoduces an element of skid, while sharpening the turn even more. Both those things help control speed even further, while not having to actively steer and create skid anlge.
DaveC, if you get very skilled at fore/aft balance awareness, and the ability to vary it according to script, you simultaneously become more skilled at maintaining a specified state, such as the constant centered state your CSIA3 criteria requires.
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FastMan, so from a purely performance perspective, are you talking about fore/aft change for speed control rather than steering across/back up the fall line to deal with undesired acceleration? No idea which is technically more efficient is why I'm asking. It does make sense for short turns that it'd help, but given the pretty strict idea of "just be centred" the CSIA gives, I'm wondering if it's ideal to sharpen the turn that way.
Optimal performance aside, I'm just having trouble with the idea that for recreational skiers, it's better to teach them a reasonably complicated way to create speed control rather than steering or pivoting and staying centred with all it's benefits...
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You know it makes sense.
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| DaveC wrote: |
FastMan, so from a purely performance perspective, are you talking about fore/aft change for speed control rather than steering across/back up the fall line to deal with undesired acceleration? No idea which is technically more efficient is why I'm asking.
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Not rather, but as an additional tool. There are 3 primary speed management tools a skier can use.
1) Turn radius. The smaller the radius, the slower the speed.
2) Degree of turn. The more the skier continues to turn away from the falline, the more speed will be dumped through the end of the turn.
3) Skid angle. The larger the skid angle, the lesser the speed through the entire turn.
Skiers should develop their skills at all of the above, learn to do them in various ways, and use the version that best suits situational need or desire. Radius can be controlled through steering, edge angle, or pressure control (moving fore/aft). Skid angle can be created and managed actively, via steering, or passively, via pressure control.
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| It does make sense for short turns that it'd help, but given the pretty strict idea of "just be centred" the CSIA gives, I'm wondering if it's ideal to sharpen the turn that way. |
If the criteria you need to adhere to for your exam is to remain center balanced all the time, then no, moving fore is not what you want to demonstrate to them during your test.
I actually find it rather humorous; tests always seem to have their specific technical ideals they want their candidates to adhere to, and it varies widely between organizations. I work with a number of instructors from various organizations who are preparing for certification tests, and I stress to them the difference between the specific tasks that they need to master to get through their test, and the process of actually building their overall skiing skills. Development of a broad skill base will allow them to pass any test, any task, and will put them on the road to becoming a true expert skier. Sadly, for many, real learning only begins after the stresses of the test criteria are in the rear view mirror.
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| Optimal performance aside, I'm just having trouble with the idea that for recreational skiers, it's better to teach them a reasonably complicated way to create speed control rather than steering or pivoting and staying centred with all it's benefits |
Even when steering, moving fore at the start of the turn will benefit the skier if speed control is a goal. Many skiers have fore/aft balance problems occur on steep terrain. Speeds pick up quickly, and it can be intimidating. The natural human reaction is to move aft, away from that which is scaring them (the acceleration). It's the exact opposite of what needs to be done. The skier loses control of the the front of the ski, and in turn, loses control of speed and line. Encouraging them to move to the front of the ski at the start of the turn helps them overcome those innate defensive reactions, and thus take control of their skis and their turns.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FastMan,
| Quote: |
| I actually find it rather humorous; tests always seem to have their specific technical ideals they want their candidates to adhere to, and it varies widely between organizations. I work with a number of instructors from various organizations who are preparing for certification tests, and I stress to them the difference between the specific tasks that they need to master to get through their test, and the process of actually building their overall skiing skills. Development of a broad skill base will allow them to pass any test, any task, and will put them on the road to becoming a true expert skier. Sadly, for many, real learning only begins after the stresses of the test criteria are in the rear view mirror. |
Indeed. The skiing required seems to become more stylized the higher you go.
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Poster: A snowHead
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FastMan,
I would just like to say how grateful I am that you take the time to make your posts.
Thank you
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is this more or less relevant in Off piste conditions?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DB, i would say good for aft is crucial in off piste conditions, i am on a course myself this week and the trainer is hammering us with fore aft drills when on piste.
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DaveC, I'm with you on the teaching of centre balance. The idea was given to me by Hugh Monney BASI trainer, easy to teach, addresses a mutitude of postural issues all in one go. His thought were that if you were centre balanced, the ski was being used correctly, in effect balancing on the ski's sweet spot. Works for me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman,
Didn't for me, despite your ministrations. 
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Spyderman, that's kind of the thing. I understand the potential, but outside of high end skiers trying to achieve a very specific outcome (so, let's just call it racing), it seems like it's a very unclear contradictory message to teach a student. Shortening time in the fall line isn't something I want to encourage since people tend to pivot hard for fear of it anyway, trying to get someone forward on steeper terrain is likely to give them the message they should always be forward on the front of their boot (which I see/hear a lot), and I'd rather they were actually centred anyway. Seeing it as essentially spectrum training is fine, to give awareness of your actual fore/aft position by playing with being more fore or more aft, but again unless it's carefully framed, it seems like it encourages front seat driving and gives confusing messages to students.
As for being on the sweet spot of the ski, I feel like I'm stacked up much better structurally to deal with changes in terrain too - far easier to use full ROM in joints for flexion/extension if your centre of mass is balanced at the midfoot, rather than in front of you?
Anyway, I'm arguing for debate's sake and to try and understand the other side of the coin, since I'm pretty CSIA brainwashed. Thanks for posting, FastMan.
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DaveC, Agreed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| DB, i would say good for aft is crucial in off piste conditions, i am on a course myself this week and the trainer is hammering us with fore aft drills when on piste. |
skimottaret can you enlighten us as to what drills the trainer is running through with you. I'm really only familar with the failing leaf drill, so would welcome a few more to add to my teaching toolbox
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