 Poster: A snowHead
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Sad news 
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| Id guess that 50 minutes is an unusually long time to get a S&R team to an incident that close to a major resort. |
Not at all... If anything that is about average.
S&R response time depends on many factors such as the weather, other incidents, location of helicopter, pilots and doctors.
Statistics show that in an avalanche you are entirely depending on companion rescue.
If other group members cant dig you out in under 15 minutes you have almost certainly had it.
Even with best case scenario it is very unlikely that any rescue team will reach the site within 15 mins - so survival is dependent on other group members digging victims out almost immediately.
In many ways the time it takes the helicopter to reach the scene is (almost) irrelevant as the human brain cant survive long with out oxygen.
Immediately after an avalanche the surviving group members should be spending those crucial first minutes trying to locate victims.
Spending a couple of minutes dialing 112 / 999 is actually a secondary consideration once you have located any victims.
[Moderator note]I've split this topic as requested. sherlock235 [/moderator note]
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Sad news
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| Id guess that 50 minutes is an unusually long time to get a S&R team to an incident that close to a major resort. |
Not at all...
S&R response time depends on many factors such as the weather, other incidents, location of helicopter, pilots and doctors.
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Indeed, but I based my comment on the weather yesterday (calm and clear enough to fly), the fact that there were several helicopters attending the scene and the knowing how quickly Val d'Isere usually gets the first teams on the spot. A bigger resort will have more resources available; those resources might be stretched by having simultaneous events (more likely in a big resort), but yesterday's 5 person multiple burial is gong to to receive the highest priority for S&R. But of course you're right to say that your best chance of recovery is the people you are skiing with, and relying on external teams to rescue you is not wise.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haggis_Trap,
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Spending a couple of minutes dialing 112 / 999 is actually a secondary consideration once you have located any victims.
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Not sure. Especially if there was more than one witness - the guide and his wife, in this instance, according to some reports - surely a call to emergency services by one of them would have been a top priority? Five people were carried off in a huge slide, which went an awful long way, search help, let alone people to help with resuscitation, was bound to have been needed. Whenever I've done ordinary resuscitation courses (in London, run by Barts, but a long time ago) I was always taught that the first priority was to summon an ambulance, not sure if that's still the usual advice, and whether it applies to avalanche victims. ??
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Hurtle, when I've done mountain safety training the advice was locate the victim is the top priority, above all else. If you spend 5 minutes making an emergency call that's one third of your 15-minute window used up. If there are several people available you can divide up tasks, include alerting the authorities, but you need to start your search pattern immediately.
On the 1st Aid courses I've done the advice was when CPR is needed you start that immediately and yell for help between chest compressions and inflating the victim's lungs.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar,
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you start that immediately and yell for help
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Ah, you could be right, maybe I misremembered, and getting someone else to call was the recommended priority.
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If there are several people available you can divide up tasks, include alerting the authorities, but you need to start your search pattern immediately.
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That makes sense. But, in a case like this, where the slide was humungous and the burial was multiple, what if there had only been one witness? There is no way that witness could have managed the whole situation on his own. It seems to me - and I could well be wrong, I have no experience or training - that in that situation, a call to emergency services would indeed be the top priority.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle, no - if you're the only one you need to get seaching straight away
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Hurtle, the chances of S&R getting there and being able to locate and dig out a victim within 15 minutes is very slim. Multiple burials in a huge slide with just one witness is the scenario from hell (and I believe not that common from stats I read on Piste Hors), so I think it is better to try and save at least one victim than waste your precious time in the hope that S&R will arrive and save them all (the odds of which are heavily stacked against you). So better to assume that you're on your own, and maybe pray that someone on the other side of the valley might have seen the incident and called in.
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rob@rar, fair enough, I can see that saving one is arguably better than saving none.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Spending a couple of minutes dialing 112 / 999 is actually a secondary consideration once you have located any victims.
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Its a difficult one, I was told that you should always phone for help first, have the local emergency number pre programed into your phone, if there are a number of people in the rescue then allocate one to phone for help and the rest to start searching as quick as possible.
If you are the only rescuer then phone first, there is always the risk of a second avalanche and if you get caught in this and have not phoned for help!!
It is a difficult area and one I would have trouble with myself, I know I would want to start the search straight away, esp if it was friends and family in the group.
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Truly awful for everyone involved. The horror of being trapped or being a witness/searcher is unimaginable
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| if there are a number of people in the rescue then allocate one to phone for help and the rest to start searching as quick as possible. |
Generally true (obviously depending on location, scenario, number of diggers, number of victims).
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| If you are the only rescuer then phone first |
False.
Get searching and digging ASAP - the victim is entirely depending on you finding them within 15 minutes.
They could be face down or near the surface.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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livetoski, ah. So there is more than one (expert) school of thought.
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livetoski, it is a tough call. When I did a timed and assessed transceiver search I had to work hard to contain my nerves and massive amounts of adrenaline flowing. And that was just searching for a buried backpack. I dread to think the state I would be in if one of my friends had been taken, or even a complete stranger.
If making that call takes 30 seconds then it's hard to argue against it. But the reality will be considerably more time than that. You're going to be in shock, you're going to have to remove gloves, extract your phone from a pocket (or maybe a backpack if you are ensuring some distance from your transceiver), you're going to have to scroll through your contacts list (assuming you've pre-programmed), then you might need to wait for a few seconds for the call to be answered (and seconds genuinely do count in this situation), then you might have a language issue to deal with, then you're going to have to relay as succinctly as possible the information about the avalanche, where it is located (how many of us can say with precision where we are in the resort, what slope, what altitude, etc), number of victims, number of survivors, etc. All of that takes time, at a time when you are going to be struggling to keep things together because your mate is under the snow, dying slowly. Start searching is the advice I've been given, and I think the most sensible option for a dire situation.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| So there is more than one (expert) school of thought. |
^ hurtle / livetoski (snowshepard.co.uk) - NO. Statistics prove you need to get victims out within 15 minutes.
This depends on free-ing their airway ASAP. with every minute that passes chances of survival drop significantly.
Human brain can simply not survive without oxygen. If you have to prioritise then always search for victims first.
Because only you, not the rescue services, can save them. if you wish to carry on debate then take it elsewhere ?
Commiseration to all involved - horrific incident.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| livetoski, ah. So there is more than one (expert) school of thought. |
No, the rescue services will only get there in time to help dig out dead bodies. Better to try and get at least one out alive.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| livetoski, ah. So there is more than one (expert) school of thought. |
Yes, there's more than one way to react. If I'm a first, sole responder and I need time to get into position to start my rescue attempt, I'm going to dial the number. I have a bluethooth device in my helmet, so I will be hands free as I make my way over and start going through my procedures of visual search etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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When skiing off piste: the rescue services should be involved as soon a possible without jeopardizing the search of any victims. - Source ANENA/PisteHors.com, see the link to the ANENA PDF in the document below. 56% of off piste avalanche burials are saved by the rescue services, just 44% by eye witnesses. I assume "without jeopardizing" means you should not leave the scene to ski down to get a phone signal as I remember happened a couple of years ago, when the mountain rescue arrived they found the victim only partially buried.
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/1001-backcountry-and-off-piste-rescue-operations-and-methods/
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brian
brian
Guest
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^ PJSKI - unfortunately RF of the phone signal making a call will interfere with your beacon search - try it.
Also you need to take gloves off, and phone out of backpack to dial the number.
Rather than f--king about making a phone call you should initially be using your eyes, and ears, to search for signs of victims.
Then get cracking with the beacon from the point you last saw them...
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 12-01-11 14:07; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| sherman-maeir wrote: |
| When skiing off piste: the rescue services should be involved as soon a possible without jeopardizing the search of any victims. - Source ANENA/PisteHors.com |
Indeed. My method involves me getting my phone out of the pocket I always keep it in. The phone is prepared so I have minimal number of key presses to dial the number. Hopefully, if I have a signal, I will soon have someone on the other end helping me. This is my own method, that I have developed and practised, but it does depend on being able to be hands free and having a window of opportunity.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ PJSKI - unfortunately RF of the phone signal making a call will interfere with your beacon search - try it.
Also you need to take gloves off, and phone out of backpack to dial the number.<fail>
Rather than f--king about making a phone call you should initially be using your eyes, and ears, to search for signs of victims.
Then get cracking with the beacon. |
It's not always the best option and obviously the phone, if deployed at all, becomes redundant (turned back off) at the point you start your beacon search.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 12-01-11 14:05; edited 1 time in total
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Haggis_Trap,
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if you wish to carry on debate then take it elsewhere ?
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^ personally I dont feel comfortable debating (mis-information) in the same topic announcing the death of 4 people
RIP, and commiserations to all the families involved.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Maybe the thread could be split by a passing moderator?
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Haggis_Trap, I agree. (Sorry, I thought your remark was directed at me personally.)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I had no intention of starting a massive debate over this, posts from Haggis_Trap, clarky999, brian, sorry if I left anyone out are all correct, the facts about rescue in the first 15 mins are well documented and agree that the speed of starting the search is of the utmost importance.
Avalanche situations vary and the need to phone for help can vary especially in a true back country area, when rescue might be a long way off, I do not think there are different schools of thought just different situations where you have to try and make the correct decsion.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| livetoski wrote: |
I had no intention of starting a massive debate over this, posts from Haggis_Trap, clarky999, brian, sorry if I left anyone out are all correct, the facts about rescue in the first 15 mins are well documented and agree that the speed of starting the search is of the utmost importance.
Avalanche situations vary and the need to phone for help can vary especially in a true back country area, when rescue might be a long way off, I do not think there are different schools of thought just different situations where you have to try and make the correct decision. |
Exactly.
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Surely with a multiple burial, especially one where the buried outnumber the standing, such as this one, you need to get help there as quickly as possible.
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You know it makes sense.
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bar shaker, the point is that 'as quickly as possible' in 99% of slides will be too late to be of any help, so you'd be better off investing the precious early minutes in a more useful manner.
The main exception I could think of would be if you're a long way in the backcountry so it's unlikely anyone else saw the slide, you are the only one left to conduct a rescue, and there is a reasonable chance of secondary slides onto you whilst you are rescueing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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sherlock235, thanks for splitting the thread.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| sherman-maeir wrote: |
| When skiing off piste: the rescue services should be involved as soon a possible without jeopardizing the search of any victims. - Source ANENA/PisteHors.com, see the link to the ANENA PDF in the document below. |
Isn't the 2nd half of that sentence the key bit? without jeopardizing the search of any victims
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| clarky999 wrote: |
the point is that 'as quickly as possible' in 99% of slides will be too late to be of any help,
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Well, not 99%: see graph above. About 1/4 are likely to still be alive after an hour or so. Of course that depends on the type of avalanche (wet or dry, and most particularly how deep - which may partly depend if the avalanche tailed off on a fairly even slope or piled up at a sudden levelling out.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 12-01-11 15:13; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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clarky999,
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The main exception I could think of would be if you're a long way in the backcountry so it's unlikely anyone else saw the slide, you are the only one left to conduct a rescue, and there is a reasonable chance of secondary slides onto you whilst you are rescueing.
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Agreed the point I was trying to make as well.
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One of the reports says there had been heavy rain at high altitudes so the snow may have been heavy and had little air in it, which may help explain how the victims under the snow all failed to survive, though dug out between 10-20 minutes after the avalanche. (The 5th person only had his/her legs trapped according to the account I read.) I assume the digging out had already been done by people in the area well before the helicopters arrived.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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These things are never completely black & white, but IMHO your starting point should be ...
Maximum 7 minutes to permanent brain damage.
Maximum 15 minutes to non-recoverable death.
Even in a simple single burial you will struggle to find them, dig them out enough, and establish an airway in under 10 minutes.
Unless you are completely mob-handed, your phone stays in your pocket until you have finished - and that may be quite quickly if you decide it is too dangerous to continue.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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So how many of you posting on here, who ski in the Espace killy, have the following numbers in their phones?
04 79 06 01 69 Piste patrol Val D
04 79 06 32 00 Piste patrol Tignes
Who knows what the following number is for 04 79 22 22 22 ? ( please don't ring)
In our annual meeting with the Security de Piste they advise us to contact tham as soon as possible, before commencing a search, as they have more experience, better equipment and search/rescue dogs.
p.s 04 79 22 22 22 22 is the number for PGHM (Platoon Gendarmerie Haut Mountain) who are resposible for rescues outside the 'ski area'. i.e if you off back country somewhere touring.
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stewart woodward, I've got the 3 (!) numbers needed for the Paradiski area in my phone 
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Boredsurfing, If you would like to share these or tell me where to find them I will put them into my ohone now (otherwise I will have to remember to do it when I get hold of a piste map when I am there).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum:
Peisey/Vallandry: 04 79 07 92 59
Les Arcs: 04 79 07 85 66
La Plagne: 04 79 09 67 60
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| 04 79 22 22 22 |
Is that the right number? I have 04 79 08 29 30 for PGHM Tarentaise in my phone. Do I need to change it?
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FAQ
