 Poster: A snowHead
|
HAT report this event as a slab avalanche:
| Quote: |
| The avalanche released at 2800m on a North facing slope and the debris ended up next to the river at c. 2100m. The debris was vast - 765m long - and stretched 250m in width. The depth of the slide reached down to the ground at around 80cm depth. The group of 6 were with a guide from an independant ski school, who survived. A fifth person was buried but was rescued unharmed. Reports suggest the slab avalanche was triggered by the 6th skier, and the slab of snow subsequently buried members of the group who were downhill of the fracture line. |
I think we can relay on the words of Henry more than we can those of some travel writer bloke.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 15-01-11 14:26; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
skitow,
| Quote: |
snow is so unlike any other material that even if you have some massive computer program, which I assume major resorts have, mapping the topography, weather patterns, snowfall history etc. then you will still never reach the levels of certainty that you can with other materials.
|
This view emerged very, very strongly from a documentary I saw, some years ago, on the work of the Avalanche Research Institute in Davos, who I believe are one of the leaders, if not the leader, of avalanche research in the world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
skitow,
| Quote: |
snow is so unlike any other material that even if you have some massive computer program, which I assume major resorts have, mapping the topography, weather patterns, snowfall history etc. then you will still never reach the levels of certainty that you can with other materials.
|
This view emerged very, very strongly from a documentary I saw, some years ago, on the work of the Avalanche Research Institute in Davos, who I believe are one of the leaders, if not the leader, of avalanche research in the world. |
Don't be put off by all this. Off-piste can be experienced in completely safe (from avalanche risk) areas. In the same way some people become obsessed with skiing off-piste, some get obsessed with not skiing it, to the point where their fears become irrational.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
PJSki, indeed, I'm only too aware of the (at least partly) irrational nature of my fear. It's no different from my fear of flying, really - I still fly and I expect I will ski off-piste, though not in super-gnarly areas since, aside from avalanche risk, my knowledge, skill and fitness are inadequate and unlikely to be sufficiently remedied at my advanced age. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Hurtle, stick next to me, I'll make you look like an expert after my pathetic attempts last year 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Hurtle,
Definitely don't be put off. I just find the stuff, snow that is, fascinating, for the reasons in my post, and bloody irritating as well for the resons you put in your post. my inadequate knowledge, skill, fitness and advancing age etc. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
| PJSki, indeed, I'm only too aware of the (at least partly) irrational nature of my fear. It's no different from my fear of flying, really - I still fly and I expect I will ski off-piste, though not in super-gnarly areas since, aside from avalanche risk, my knowledge, skill and fitness are inadequate and unlikely to be sufficiently remedied at my advanced age. |
Well that's a shame really, because you will have missed out on the experience of skiing steep and deep powder. It's one of those few things that are actually more than they are cracked up to be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
PJSki, I went to La Grave yesterday, and skied the Vallons de la Meije down to P1. The latter section was icy, very mogulled and not pleasant (from my point of view at least). I only just made the last lift, and I almost bottled it, and had to be bullied/coaxed down . But I'm so glad I did it. Even if I don't ski it ever again. It was so worth it for the top section in good if well-tracked snow, and to be able to say that I've skied it. I watched a video this morning of the top section, and still can't believe I did it, but as I am on the video, I can't deny it.
Hurtle, I have very irrational fears too. A lot of it comes from JulesB's accident, even though that was on a blue piste, although I was always a bit cautious. I was becoming obsessed with avoiding the off-piste, even in areas I know well, and in good snow. I was starting to get bored and I hadn't had a challenging day on skis for a very long time. WHich was why I went to La Grave yesterday.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Hells Bells wrote: |
PJSki, I went to La Grave yesterday, and skied the Vallons de la Meije down to P1. The latter section was icy, very mogulled and not pleasant (from my point of view at least). I only just made the last lift, and I almost bottled it, and had to be bullied/coaxed down . But I'm so glad I did it. Even if I don't ski it ever again. It was so worth it for the top section in good if well-tracked snow, and to be able to say that I've skied it. I watched a video this morning of the top section, and still can't believe I did it, but as I am on the video, I can't deny it.
|
Well done.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hells Bells,
Indeed. I notice that it was well-tracked: could anyone tell me how that run compares with the standard/easy route down from the top of Les Grands Montets, which I've done many times and absolutely loved? Actually, perhaps not, are we drifting too much from the topic? (It's difficult to know, there were so many threads started in the immediate aftermath of this terrible tragedy.)
[Edited for missing word.]
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 15-01-11 17:43; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Hurtle, I haven't skied Les Montets but I would think that the Vallons de la Meije would be well within your capabilities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
is that the Grands Montets?
if you pick your route, the Vallon de la Meije is no steeper but the traverse back to P1 can be a bit of a ballache
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arno, yes, sorry, I edited just before you posted. I thought I'd encountered a new French word in your post, and then worked out what it was. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
rob@rar, I'm interested to know, does the 25 degree slope mentioned in this report equate to the "average" red run on a piste ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I think 25 degrees would be a bit steeper than an average red.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Interesting stuff. HAT seem to be implying that the guide's decision making was at fault, Hardy is weighing in to support his friends and pretty-much saying the mountain decided, that you go off piste and roll the dice. Think I prefer HAT's view of the world. Bet there are a few angry emails flying about behind the scenes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
An avalanche of the scale that engulfed the top ski group would be unexpected given the amount of fresh snow, wind and the avalanche bulletin on the day so in that respect Peter Hardy has a valid point. I agree that given a large avalanche exposure such as cliffs is a serious issue but we don't really know what group management the topski group applied (at least not from Henry's article). Given the scale of the slide it would be hard to mitigate that kind of event.
I'm not sure team AE are the right people to point the finger at team Topski this winter to be honest. Both companies have a good safety record but Val d'Isere is not an easy environment to find good safe skiing for clients.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| davidof wrote: |
An avalanche of the scale that engulfed the top ski group would be unexpected given the amount of fresh snow, wind and the avalanche bulletin on the day so in that respect Peter Hardy has a valid point. I agree that given a large avalanche exposure such as cliffs is a serious issue but we don't really know what group management the topski group applied (at least not from Henry's article). Given the scale of the slide it would be hard to mitigate that kind of event.
I'm not sure team AE are the right people to point the finger at team Topski this winter to be honest. Both companies have a good safety record but Val d'Isere is not an easy environment to find good safe skiing for clients. |
Will there be an official enquiry? Everything I'm reading gives the impression of battle lines being drawn and harsh interpretations being made.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| PJSki wrote: |
| Will there be an official enquiry? |
There's bound to be an inquest of some kind. Would hate to see a battle between different guides/ski schools.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| Will there be an official enquiry? |
There's bound to be an inquest of some kind. Would hate to see a battle between different guides/ski schools. |
Indeed. What I meant really was will it be made public?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The PGHM have investigated both accidents. They will report to the prosecutor if they feel there is any cause. I imagine in both cases they will conclude that they were unfortunate accidents and no, it won't be made public.
I imagine that the ski resort doesn't want to get too involved in closing off piste routes, there is no good legal framework to do this which wouldn't leave them open to law suits and it is already enough work to decided which of the ski runs should be open or closed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
What happens to the guide after an unfortunate incident like this,Do the UIAGM,IFMGA get involved at all or is the guide free to continue to work.
Regards Mark
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
In the case of the two recent accidents neither of the professionals were guides.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
davidof, understood, I meant the word in the more general sense (but so as to include qualified mountain guides as well) which is why I asked PJSki how he felt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ok that's clear, I was being too litteral.
Personally I'd be happy to ski with AE, Topski or even SCGB. Terrible incidents for AE and TS and if there are any changes to procedure be made I hope they are put in place quickly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
davidof, I wouldn't exactly say I'd be 'happy': given my level of ignorance, I'd be putting far more trust in these people than you would, and I've also noted your remark that
| Quote: |
Val d'Isere is not an easy environment to find good safe skiing
|
But I certainly wouldn't rule it out. I feel so sorry for them, punters can just vote to stay away, but this is their professional, or semi-professional, lives.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| davidof wrote: |
| In the case of the two recent accidents neither of the professionals were guides. |
Interesting. The chap who popped up saying the recent slide was in an unsate area and saying how safe his guide was described Wayne Watson as a guide but I cannot see UAIGM anywhere linked to him. I take it you are referring to his slide as the first one? Is he a UAIGM ?
Guide is one of those words that can mean different things I guess? Obviously if glaciated terrain or climbing is not involved it may be less important.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Hurtle, without wishing to put word in davidof's mouth there is an element of human factors making VDI more dangerous. there are a lot of people chasing the same snow so there is a lot of pressure on group leaders:
1 to jump on slopes maybe slightly earlier than ideal in order to beat the hordes
2 to go that little bit further in search of fresh snow
(clearly there are lots of "natural" factors too but no more than lots of other resorts)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| PJSki wrote: |
| meandrew wrote: |
| The more extreme we want to get the higher the risks, some of us more than others and we pay to do this in a extreme enviroment the mountains climbers die,mountain bikers die,kayakers die the more popular a sport gets the more people die as people want a bigger buzz.I do it,climb ,ski,and bike but as with every sport there are risk`s but you have question yourself really on if you are willing to die for your sport or hobbie and maybe it will stop the conveyor belt of guides trying to make a living but risking peoples lives to pay the bills.its the nature of extreme sports they hurt you when they go wrong. |
Thank you Aristotle, but a day out with a guide isn't classed as an extreme sport. This is a highly unusual and tragic event and the odds of it happening are probably near to 1,000,000/1. |
I think what I said does count PJSki,when you have a off piste area like val where people pay and travel to get there they want to go off piste,and some will go no matter what and take the risk thats what the sport is all about we are going to be having this thread topic again and again because its not going to stop happening as long as we ski off piste and go into the mountains,with or without a guide.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Arno wrote: |
Hurtle, without wishing to put word in davidof's mouth there is an element of human factors making VDI more dangerous. there are a lot of people chasing the same snow so there is a lot of pressure on group leaders:
1 to jump on slopes maybe slightly earlier than ideal in order to beat the hordes
2 to go that little bit further in search of fresh snow
(clearly there are lots of "natural" factors too but no more than lots of other resorts) |
you are totally right.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
. I have no balls, but if I did they would be aching now.
