 Poster: A snowHead
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Just had an email update from Henry's Avalanche Talk saying that 7 people were caught this morning in an avalanche. 3 escaped, inlcuding a professional guide but unfortunately 4 people are dead.
4 dead in Vallonets avalanche which let rip at 2800m and ended up next to the river. The debris was vast.The group were with Top Ski and group lead by Didier Moreau who survived. 7 were buried and 4 are dead. It happened this morning....The report also suggests a professional was involved."
See short report here http://www.radiovaldisere.com/avalines.php
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That must have been a monster. I've used Total Ski once. Scary as hell out there at the moment despite only being grade 3.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Probably best to put all the Val d'Isere avalanche threads into one, there must be at least 3 by now.
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very sad
7 buried is huge
DB, Any reason why its all going off around the val d'isere area and these results aren't being replicated all the tarentise or is it just coincidence?
There was one at the very begining of the season/pre season above le fornet which killed one/two? construction workers working on a new resturant up there
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just said on the radio that 1 of them is believed to be British. Very sad. R.I.P
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| Layne wrote: |
| That must have been a monster. I've used Total Ski once. Scary as hell out there at the moment despite only being grade 3. |
Level 3 is "Considerable" on the European scale. Level 3 is when most avalanche deaths occur*, primarily because people under estimate the level of risk when it is level 3.
On the European scale 3 means "Triggering is possible, sometimes even with low additional loads. The bulletin may indicate many slopes which are particularly affected. In certain conditions, medium and occasionally large sized natural avalanches may occur."
See http://www.avalanche-center.org/Education/danger/eudanger.php
And yes, according to the reports it was huge, seems like the entire snowpack came away. Truely horrific. I was just talking about an up comming trip and planning off psite skiing this morning. I don't feel like going anymore. This is really very sad.
[* According to Bruce Tremper, author of Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain ]
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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sah,
| Quote: |
| Level 3 is when most avalanche deaths occur*, primarily because people under estimate the level of risk when it is level 3. |
Appreciate what you are saying but isn't it more likely to be the case that Level 3 is set for the vast majority of time. Therefore that is when most ava's occur?
Also, I was thinking of the scale of the slide.
I wonder if there are any figures for what percentage of time each level is set.
And over what area are the levels set.
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Layne, good questions - a bit like weather forecasts, I suppose, they are generalised over a big area. But there is plenty of detail available about the particular risks (most resorts will post them) plus the general ones that informed off piste skiers know about (lee slopes, depth hoar etc).
I don't know that level 3 is set for the "vast majority of time" - but yes, it would be interesting to see percentages.
Even in our (very safe, very tame) area the instructor I had a couple of off piste lesson with last year pointed out specific spots to be wary of. I've forgotten the "labels" he gave them (was in French) but will be doing it again this year, and maybe I'll remember. They were lee slopes. Was very interesting - I don't have the skills or stamina to venture far but I can see why people will run substantial risks, for the sheer excitement of it all.
Everyone in the resort must be in shock - including, I rather hope, my somewhat reckless snowboarding nephew who has just arrived. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Layne wrote: |
sah,
| Quote: |
| Level 3 is when most avalanche deaths occur*, primarily because people under estimate the level of risk when it is level 3. |
Appreciate what you are saying but isn't it more likely to be the case that Level 3 is set for the vast majority of time. Therefore that is when most ava's occur?
Also, I was thinking of the scale of the slide.
I wonder if there are any figures for what percentage of time each level is set.
And over what area are the levels set. |
I honestly don't know. From Trempers book he says that when it's 4 or 5 peope are extra cautious, when it's 1 or 2 avalanches are not that often, so 3 is the killer level... I don't think it is at 3 most of the time, I think the levels change a lot, sometimes during the day, but I have no figures.
This slide was huge, but level 3 doesn't mean that huge slides won't happen - the description specificaly says that large slides are possible.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Layne, sah, surely it's a case of there being more people out in 2 & 3 and relatively few in 4. As nearly all slides are triggered by humans it follows that more fatalities will happen in 3 and, judguing by the Swiss stats, a large number in 2 also.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Layne, sah, surely it's a case of there being more people out in 2 & 3 and relatively few in 4. As nearly all slides are triggered by humans it follows that more fatalities will happen in 3 and, judguing by the Swiss stats, a large number in 2 also. |
Exactly. And yes, 2 is dangerous too... People forget that these are a scale of avalanche risk and there isn't a "0"; so there is no time when it is 100% safe.
I think the wording of the US scale was changed recently to emphasise the consquences more, they describe level 3 as "Considerable - Dangerous avalanche conditions ... Traiing and experience essential". (see http://utahavalanchecenter.org/education/dangerscale).
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You know it makes sense.
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We were up there this morning and saw the helecopters. I said to OH at the time that it looked bad by the amount of activity.
Warnings that gorges de malpasset not passable, but peeps were still ignoring it first thing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It used to be a regular mantra on the morning forecast when I was there... "Les Gorges du Malpasset sont infanchisable" (or somthing like that). I don't ever remember them being OK all season.
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Poster: A snowHead
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You dont need to go into the Gorges, just traverse out onto the Grand Torsai which leads down to the Bridge and then Le Fornet.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For info all the avalanches registed with ANENA (Association Nationale pour l'Etude de la Neige et Avalanches) since Nov 2010 have occurred with a Risk Level of 3 (the others occurred when no warning was given in early November). There were until today 14 killed in avalances since Nov 2010; a heavy toll already.
http://www.anena.org/quels_risques/bilan_accident/bilan_10_11/bilan_2010_2011.html
The moment there are fresh falls of snow it is most likely that there will be a risk level of 3 or higher. A level 2 usually requires "high additional loads" to trigger (e.g. group of skiers together).
Remember the key is "Avoidance" not relying on equipment when despite this it may be too late - take care out there!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Any news on the victims? There was reports that one was British?
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For anyone interested in unbiased and reasonably scientific comment, pistehors.com invariably have level-headed and objective commentary. Tends to be france focused.
A couple of points from that site I read recently that might be relevant - Davidoff cited the example of one resort where the Risk was 3 for 86% of the season. (I may have misquoted slightly, but it was certainly in that ballpark).
There was also a comment that Risk level 5 indicates 'risk to infrastructure' - i.e. extreme... with the observation that 'in practice', level 4 would be the highest level in which one would consider skiing, which makes level 3 'high', rather than 'average'.
I believe the US scale was changed to mirror the european one. whether their descriptions match may bear further investigation, not least as the US consider anything 'in bounds' as controlled, which is not the case in Europe.
Hopefully there will be some further details, so that we all might learn.
stay safe,
h.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The names of the US scale match (almost) the European ones, but the US ones have a different way of describing the levels, adding more details on "travel advice" as well as likelyhood and possible size.
I tend to agree that level 4 is generaly the highest level you will normally see, at level 5 lifts will almost certainly not be running and it is possible the people may be evacuated from exposed locations.
3 may be "average" in the sense that it is often seen, but this simply means that there is often a considerable risk of avalanches in ski resorts, which makes perfect sense of course - there's snow, slopes and people, so you would expect considerable risk in uncontrolled areas a lot of the time.
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Please note that at Category 3 (European Scale) the risk is described as "Considerable" (not average). Defintion:
"Triggering is possible, even from low additional loads particularly on the indicated steep slopes. In some cases medium-sized, in isolated cases large-sized natural avalanches are possible."
As another "professional" friend said to his clients: "Would you bet on the National Lottery if your chances of winning were Considerable?" - Answer: "Yes". Apply this to a Category 3 Avalanche risk!
For info on European scale look at this: http://www.slf.ch/lawineninfo/zusatzinfos/lawinenskala-europa/index_EN
Another good source of info about Avalanches is http://www.sais.gov.uk/about-avalanches.asp - as it says the avalanche doesn't care how experienced you are!
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Apparently they had airbags and transceivers too. So even with the proper kit nothing is certain.
Rescue team couldn't reach them for 50mins.
750*250m is a lot of snow, and it must of travelled a long way down.
RIP
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ItsSnowJoke, Best chances of survival is by being recovered by the people with you. This underlines the importance of using going one at a time on suspect slopes (from island of safety to island of safety). Rescue teams are most likely to be recovering bodies as the 15 min period when live recovery chances are highest are long gone.
A big issue when caught in an avalanche is that you will ingest snow and thus your airway is blocked - life expectancy very short. Airbags and ARVAs (transceivers) are for after the horse has bolted and not some magic solution.
Another issue is that it's not always the avalanche that gets you; it's what it sweeps you into or over - rocks, cliff or into trees (Chartreuse in November).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ItsSnowJoke wrote: |
| Rescue team couldn't reach them for 50mins. |
I read that the first victims were dug out within 10 minutes, and all of them were out within 20 minutes but were pronounced dead at the scene. Apparently the first rescue services, including 4 doctors and helicopters arrived at the location within a few minutes, which is what I would hope to see in a big resort like Val d'Isere.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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News Article:
A British off-piste skier has been killed in an avalanche in the French Alps, French officials said.
The skier, a man believed to be aged between 40 and 60, died in the popular ski resort of Val d'Isere.
Xavier Idier, an Interior Ministry official in the Alpine Savoie region, said three other skiers, two French citizens and a Swede, are also believed to have been killed.
A fifth person was also caught by the avalanche but was pulled from the snow alive.
Mr Idier said a 50-strong rescue team, including four doctors, attempted to save the skiers but could not reach them for 50 minutes after the avalanche.
He said: "The cause of death was the effect of the snow. Without oxygen it is difficult to survive for more than seven minutes under the snow.
"The weather conditions were good but four days ago there was heavy rain at high altitude which could have been the reason for the avalanche."
He said the victims were equipped with avalanche transceivers and airbag vests.
"At this time the police are getting information about the incident," Mr Idier added.
Mr Idier said the group's guide survived. He was not buried in the avalanche, Mr Idier added[/i][/i]
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ItsSnowJoke wrote: |
News Article:
...
The skier, a man believed to be aged between 40 and 60, died in the popular ski resort of Val d'Isere.
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He was in his early 30's.
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You know it makes sense.
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ItsSnowJoke, as always, it's difficult to get reliable information close to an event. The Telegraph runs with all rescued with 20 minutes line. I'd guess that 50 minutes is an unusually long time to get a S&R team to an incident that close to a major resort.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I know that run well though I haven't skied it for a few years. If the Isere isn't frozen over you have a hairy walk along a very narrow track on the side of the gorge.
With regard to Avalanche danger I'm no expert though I have done courses in both Scotland and Tignes. I have been involved in two search and rescues in Tignes one of which was right under the Les Lanches lift on the Double M piste. That was while the Ava risk was at 3.
One thing that the Ava courses taught me is to make my own assessments on the slope I'm actually planning to ski on. I would strongly recommend anyone going off piste to do one of these courses there is a great deal you just wouldn't guess about the subject. A valid course is generally more than three days worth but it is a fun way to get off piste with a good mountain guide.
Have fun
Crispin 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I bet the guide is glad his name is plastered on the internet. Probably plastering is the only work he'll get in Val for a while now.
What a tragic loss of life though. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
user
Posts: 82
Location: Swindon
I bet the guide is glad his name is plastered on the internet. Probably plastering is the only work he'll get in Val for a while now.
What a tragic loss of life though. Shocked
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Poor sod, no matter how well qualified he may have been there is always a risk and he got caught out.
Crispin
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Split1950, "The mountain does not know you are an expert"
I feel uncomfortable with seeing some finger pointing going on before there has been a proper analysis of the causes here.
On another thread about this incident, someone new to snowHeads was implying he was glad that his guide was safe - when in fact someone had died with that guide 2 weeks previously.
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Exactly, I wonder if the airbags and transcievers made them feel safe too.
The risks are probably much higher than most realise.
As I said, a tragic loss of life.
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I take it none of the victims deployed their airbags. I wonder why? And if it would have helped in this situation?
Another thought is that you are always told each skier should get to an island of safety. This appears to have not happened here. Maybe it wasn't possible on that slope?
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
I feel uncomfortable with seeing some finger pointing going on before there has been a proper analysis of the causes here.
On another thread about this incident, someone new to snowHeads was implying he was glad that his guide was safe - when in fact someone had died with that guide 2 weeks previously. |
Well said, stoatsbrother. I agree entirely. I also think it demonstrates disrespect to those that tragically died and poor consideration for the families/friends, some of whom may be part of this community.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 13-01-11 12:56; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
| I take it none of the victims deployed their airbags? |
Were they wearing an airbag?
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As I understand it, only 1 victim was wearing an airbag and it was not deployed for reasons unknown.
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FAQ
I'm assuming there has been multiple snowhead threads started about the same avalanche.
