is correct form crucial to good skiing?

A snowHead

little bit of a question ive got here, which im probably going to get blasted for(even more so for not having that many years, or posts behind me)

is perfect form and technique required to be a good skier?

obviously to those that are racing and shaving milliseconds off down a gs course, then its a yes. to a recreational skier doing it casually, its all about fun so no, but im more talking about those people who want to get down every slope on the mountain,venture into off piste, pushing themselves, but against the terrain not the clock.

I ask as ive got 26 days skiing under my belt(+ a couple of snowdome sessions not that they count for much) but have only ever had 20 hours of esf group lessons. which got me to a starting to get the hang of parallel stage. Since then ive been self taught, with a slight bit of advice from experienced skiers here and there and a quick google of techniques.

I now seem to be able to ski parallel, carve, and in last years holiday in canada, despite having never done it before, got to grips with powder/off piste stuff, to the point where i was totally unphased by blacks, was hitting a few double blacks with little problems(still had bits of fear on some of them, but i think thats due to having really hairy moments on them earlier in the holiday) on piste my pace isnt an issue when skiing with much more experience skiers, I also dont appear to suffer from having one side stronger than the other(as in thats not to say when skiing my left hand turns look whack compared to my right hand ones, but more ive never hit a slope and had issues turning one way and not the other due to steepness/bumps etc)

Only stuff i feel i want to learn are jump turns,skiing switch and then i wouldnt mind upping the confidence in the air. but im fully aware having gone from coping with easy reds to double blacks with no form of coaching, ive got a bunch of bad habits, am i fine to carry on just as i am, and get lessons with the above stuff if i struggle with them. Or would these bad habits be likely to hinder me when it comes to hitting really steep stuff.

coming from a mountain biking background, although people try and advocate breathing in time with pedalling strokes on climbs, and weight distribution/posture over the bike, no one ever really pulls you up on it unless your struggling with it,and the guy who gets round the route and back to the pub the quickest is the best. but with skiing it doesnt seem to the same, if you dont fall, you get down the slope quicker than the guy with correct edge angles and parallel shins(nicking it off the front page of here, not to say its not important im sure it is, was just picking a technique id never put any thought into) and your in control the whole time, does the point of having correct edge angles and parallel shins become pointless for the guy thats not on a slalom course?

A snowHead

Since you are so wonderful after 26 days skiing, i wonder why you are asking the question.

But I am only an instructor, so who am I to comment?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

i by no means think im wonderful, quite the opposite, i know my technique is off on loads of stuff, I know theres plenty of stuff i cant ski that everyone on here can, hence the question. I ski in a group of people,boarders and skiers, most of whom have got a few years experience on me,and generally the first time they take me onto something steeper/harder than before, Ill struggle, but due to being stubborn as feck, ill do it till i can do it right, first time i launched off a double black in canada i fell almost every other turn, but by the end of the week, i was going down it keeping pace with the group, but im fairly sure ive got an awful technique and bad habits.

But im not going to get into racing or anything of the like, as i ski for fun, but like to constantly push myself, Im asking is there anypoint in me getting these issues ironed out, as in am i suddenly going to get to a point where all this stuff im doing wrong is holding me back? or is the techniques etc people talk about on here purely for shaving seconds off run times.

Because if im going to get to a point where I cant go any further because of my bad habits, ill go take a bunch of lessons getting them ironed out now(possibly squeeze in a 4 day solo trip before our next holiday to go get some lessons under my belt), but if its there for improving times rather than getting down a slope safely, id much rather spend the holiday skiing with my mates than spending it in a ski school (Granted my opinion of ski schools isnt great) or getting private lessons at the expense of getting one holiday this season rather than 2 due to the extra cost of having lessons.

I am aware that ive got loads to learn,a few bad habits to iron out, but feel i just need more practice with everything and providing that can be achieved without these habits holding me back Id rather not take lessons (especially if these things just kind of iron themselves out with loads of practice), but if getting everything nailed down perfect now and not having bad habits is crucial to being a good skier, im quite happy to go spend the extra money.

Like i know i dont use my poles correctly, when performing sharp turns i find my inner ski sometimes seems to come way too close to my outer ski, to the point where they occasionally touch each other(although i seemed to be able to get round this by keeping a bit more weight on my inner ski, im not sure whether this was the correct way of sorting it) and when going across bumps I again had problems with keeping the skis an equal width apart, which other people in my group seem to just be able to do(although i seem to fall less), I just want to know if stuff like this needs lessons to iron out, is stuff thats necessary to becoming a good skier,or is this stuff that just falls into place after many more weeks on the slopes).

I dont view any of our group as expert skiers, but do i need to go back to easier slopes to dial in my technique, or is the fact i get down stuff without falling and whilst being in control enough for me to progress onto steeper harder stuff.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

kev182, some people pick up skiing quicker than others, and some do seem naturally able to pick up skiing by watching other people on the hill and just doing it. But in my experience these natural athletes are few in number (as well as being irritatingly good at all sports they turn their hand to!). On the other hand I've met many skiers who confuse getting down steep terrain with good technical skiing. Which group do you think you fall in to?

It's certainly not a crime to have imperfect technique: provided you're having fun and not endangering other people what's the problem? But don't think that monstering your way down the hill with strength and bravado is a good substitute for developing technical skills which will provide the foundation of your skiing in all situations. Technique isn't just for racers.

My own experience is that I picked up skiing relatively quickly compared to my per group when I was a kid (although I by no means fall in to the natural athlete category), and then because it couldn't afford it I skied for 10-15 years without any instruction, so rather than having 20-30 weeks of experience I simply repeated the same week of skiing 20-30 times. In that period I perfected many bad habits which stopped me from developing efficient ski technique. I could get down steep slopes, but it was more a case of surviving rather than skiing. I could ski fast, or at least I thought I could until it was pointed out to me by several good instructors that it wasn't really fast and both my technique and my subconscious were holding me back. It's taken (and is still taking) a long time too unpick those bad habits that I perfected. With hindsight I wouldn't have wasted those skiing trips without having any instruction at all.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Haven't we all enjoyed watching skiers completing a tough mogul run or something similar with technique and grace and then compared them to someone who may get down the same run, perhaps as fast probably through brute force and ignorance, but look untidy and ungainly?

You'll need to Register first of course.

Key182, yes, the holes you currently have in your skill base will hold you back from attaining higher levels of proficiency in all mountain skiing. In the meantime, the less efficient movement patterns you're using now, because of the skills you lack, will continue to embed themselves deeper and deeper into your muscle memory. The longer you continue to depend on less efficient technique, the more habitual using it will become, and thus the harder it will be to shed later.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

with better skills you will get better enjoyment,then the whole mountain belongs to you to conquer,now isnt that a fantastic thought Toofy Grin

After all it is free

kev182,

kev182, I have two experiences that may be relevant.

I skied with three men staying in the same chalet as me. They were all 'go for it' chaps and we warmed up on some blue pistes where I thought they were fast skiers, they kept on overtaking me. Then we tried a red (the Arcelle in Val d'Isere) and then their lack of technique really held them back so I had to wait for them.

Another day, with another group of skiers doing several reds and the occasional black. Mostly the group skied at a similar speed but as the day wore on it was clear that some of the fast skiers were (to use Colin B's words) using "brute force and ignorance" and getting very tired. Our holiday company ski-guide that day quipped to some of the group about thigh burn. The day before I had had a wonderful ski lesson that concentrated on skiing upright and efficiently so I was thinking to myself "thigh burn, what thigh burn?".

kev182, perfect technique is not required but improving your technique is a good goal. I am a holiday skier, other holiday skiers have occasionally complimented me on my technique but I remain sceptical. Last winter I saw a video of my self skiing off piste and I was very disappointed by my technique. So I have to work on some improvements this winter.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

A lot depends on how far you want to go with your skiing.

I'm in a similar boat, had 4 weeks of tuition when I first started going with my school. Since then, I've just been skiing with a group of friends without any guidance. I now seem to have reached a plateau so I have decided that I will probably have some lessons over the course of this season to prevent me from becoming stuck in a rut.

You seem an abitious skiier so you may eventually want to ski some very exposed lines, in situations like this poor technique just wont cut it.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I think it depends on the person, loads of people say they improve by watching better skiers but that obviously isn't the best way, otherwise Bode et al would just watch each other and not waste time with coaches Wink

I think everyone can improve with good instruction, but the key is the instructor. After having some great instructors and some not so great I am more fussy about where I spent my money. Much better to go for a few high quality lessons with a recommended instructor than a week in an average ski school. If you enjoy "getting down" slopes and are happy with the level you are at then that's great and don't bother with lessons but you can always be better.

snow reports

kev182, I was one of them thar watch and copy merchants, but coming over from snowboarding gave me a big edge because I already had a good grounding on edge control and what it felt like to carve. But since then as well as continuing to watch practice and self develop I've also included tuition from my betters. This has proved invaluable and has bettered my skiing hugely and I will continue to take tuition but it will be in small groups or 1 on 1.
Perfect technique is not essential but you do have to know what it is before you modify it to suit yourself or the conditions.

Bit like today, spent the entire day trying to complete short fast tele turn . . . not too successfully until I finally got my foot weighting right and my body positioned correctly. Practice, practice, practice.

kev182, depends on where you get your enjoyment. There is a huge difference between 'getting down' slopes of varying difficulties and actually skiing them.

Get some more instruction on your basic technique and get some video feedback, chances are that you will need it, however if you keep 'self' teaching then you will cement all your bad habits in place.

Practice makes permanant, only correct practice makes perfect

You know it makes sense.

kev182, let's talk about your mountain bike comparation. You have one guy who is fit, so climbs quite well and has courage, so can go fast downhill, but is not a tchnical rider. So in long steep climbs he'll lose traction and dismount. If he's going fast downhill on a new route and suddenly encounters a rock garden, he's in trouble. Or let's talk about the guy that goes downhill on a hard tail faster than you on a 7" trave bike

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

kev182, in short, yes. Correct form is really just the result of correct function. If you want to be functional, ie be able to do it, you must have more or less the correct form. Yes there used to be fanciful styles and poncing about but no longer really the case in modern skiing. Now it's mostly skill driven and what you recognise as correct form is just the most efficient position or movement to get the skiing result desired. All other things being equal you can crudely infer that someone with twice the form you have has twice the reserves you have in dealing with challenging conditions and terrain. How to achieve this? Some people are naturals and have a lesser need for lessons than the average, but ultimately everyone will hit a performance ceiling that will be raised only by having some form of quality instruction.

A snowHead

kev182,
there are so many components to enjoyment thats its difficult to know what pushes an individuals pleasure buttons.

i, as a poor intermediate, thrive on being in control and wanting to have the best technique (its frustrating but a challenge), my broth in law is still in is still in little plough but belts all over the mountain having great fun, no fear and amazingly seems to control it. He is not bothered about improving his technique, i am.

in addition, we all have inbuilt factors like fear avoidance and apprehension (result is a freezing up of normal ability to cope). Physical factors vary like proprioception (inbuilt balance), core stability, biomechanical alignment etc etc

Then add in the external factors in skiing, snow type, terrain, weather, equipment, blaa blaa

okay, in any sport we know that 'perfect technique' (whatever that is) enables a higher level of performance (no matter what your 'natural ability' + inbuilt +external factors)

The best chance any of us have is to be 'taught' the correct technique at an early age by a coach who CAN teach the correct technique.

As we get older it becomes more difficult to do this.

In skiing (as i have learnt to my cost) if you learn the wrong movement patterns then its very very difficult stop these patterns emerging when internal and external factors challenge your comfort zone.

So as kevindonkleywood states, CORRECT PRACTICE is the key to becoming comfotable in skiing.

For most mortals that correct practice needs to be taught in the first place by an instructor who CAN.

hope that helps Smile

A snowHead

kev182,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Sarge McSarge, well put Very Happy

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

While you can get by on athletic ability, the more you know the better it is. Take a private lesson from a recommended instructor; you will learn something.

The best place for practicing technique is a slope you are comfortable on. If your adrenaline is flowing, it interferes with learning and remembering. It doesn't have to be a green, it could be a double black, but you have to be completely at ease and having fun to maximize learning.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Yes.

Next question ?

After all it is free

I am in a similar position to you, except I had a lot more tuition when I was a kid. Not done any ski lessons for something like 15 years now. But it shows when I ski. That said - I enjoy punting along, wind in my hair, and I don't feel a big need to "own the mountain" or "throw down some lines" in the way that others do. I am happier cruising down a blue in the sunshine than working hard to get down a steep icy black. It doesn't stop me doing the steep icy black, but I have to think about technique more, concentrate, and pick my line down it. Some skiers who have had a lot of instruction and practice just ski it. Am I jealous? Not really. They want to be brilliant technical skiers. I want to get from the chalet to lunch through a roundabout route, and from lunch to the bar in a similarly roundabout route. I don't need to be the next Super G champion to enjoy it.

But, in answer to your question, eventually your technique will hold you back. I had to do some reading and research, helped a lot on here, when I had problems keeping up with my mates, even on shallow gradient. My weight was miles too far back, but no instructor was there to tell me that I was skiing like an orangutan with my backside hanging out. Tweaked it a bit, remembered the lessons of childhood, got weight forward through a couple of simple drills, and problem went away. You, on the other hand, don't have the base that you know what you should be doing necessarily - you are watching others to learn, which might work, but then again it might not.

I did have the pleasure of watching someone that had done 6 days on snow join our group of fairly experienced skiers doing pretty much every run in Tignes a couple of weeks ago. He had a natural talent for it. He had the basics sorted, and over the week progressed to a point where he was able to join us on some of the most challenging skiing I've ever done. After 2 weeks. So it does happen, but he is skiing with a group that can help him in the same way an instructor does. They can tell him how best to get down a difficult section, they can advise when they see bad habits starting. Not that we did really, but a pointer here and there and he was away. He took a couple of falls because he was clearly pushing himself very hard to improve, and he did.

I am here to say I have awful form and have a great time skiing. Oh and my skiing is pretty good too. Wink

I have not read this thread. Twisted Evil

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

I have to go slightly against the consensus here.

There are many examples of sport of world-class athletes who don't have perfect form or technique. Rafael Nadal is one of the greatest tennis players in the world, and yet never went to a tennis academy, and his only ever coach has been his uncle[1]. His technique is not perfect, but he is one of the best players in the world in a fairly technical sport.

If you ask who are the greatest boxers of all time, then most people will mention Muhammad Ali, yet his technique was generally thought to be unorthodox [2].
There are many other examples from other sports, but these were two that sprung to mind. So I would counter what most people have said, and suggest that you could be a very good skier without 'correct' form.

Skiing technique has also evolved over time. What was thought as the 'correct' form 10 years ago, has evolved. Similarly what is optimal for a downhill skier, or professional ski instructor may not be optimal for a good recreational skier.

That said - as with all other sports - good technique will help, and avoid you hitting plateaus and help you with more difficult conditions/terrain. It sounds like you're quite a natural skier I'd recommend you try and have a private 1 to 1 lesson every so often so that you can help work out an bad habits, and help make some small improvements that will help.

[1] http://www.slate.com/id/2121261/
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

kamikaze, I suppose you have to ask what the actual question is?

Is 'form' style or technique? , I would say good technique is crucial where as style is in the eye of the beholder.

I think that some of the World cup racers do not look 'stylish' when they are are skiing on their white concrete near vertical slalom courses, but one thing is for sure they have great technique.

For example someone can look pretty stylish on a blue run with what appears to be a nice controlled easy flowing motion with only a limited grasp of good technique, however put that same person on a red or black slope and they immediately look deadfull because they do not have teh technique.

You make a good point about Nadal and Ali, however I would counter by saying they do have good technique, but its their style that you are commenting on. I dont think you can be a world class athlete without good technique.

Remember technique emcompasses the mental as well as the physical.

snow reports

What about a skiing related example? It is perhaps considered by some 'professional' commentators that Bode Miller's technique and "style" runs counter to the usual perception that skiing speed events in what one might term as the "back seat" is to be avoided owing to control issues. Granted, Bode manages to assert his physical strength beyond the limits that other professional ski racers would or may not reach.

We have seen the outcome of some of Bode's loss of control in spectacular fashion and also been thrilled at the excitement he has also brought to the sport when things go right.

Should we accept that his technique/skill is brilliant or that he manages to use physical strength to push the "normal" boundaries beyond what is achievable for most and muscle his way down a mountain in a sometimes "ugly" fashion?

Chasseur, Bode's technique is excellent... he just tends to push the limits all the time rather than take a slightly safer line...

If his technique was bad we would see him rotating and tail pushing - instead we see him angulate and clean initiations(when he wants) - these require GOOD technique...

It is his blending of technical skills that is unconventional - not his skills per se

You know it makes sense.

little tiger, I'm not qualified in anyway to argue your counter position, merely taking some of the views expressed publicly (as stated) over a period of time in an effort to make a point relevant to skiing regarding the OP's topic. Who's to say some of those views are right or wrong, though I suspect your point on technique/skills has to be right to some degree Smile

In which case, and as has been suggested, he must use physical strength to muscle his way down a course to compensate for the unorthodox blending of technique/skills.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

John Clarke in his commentary on the Men's Slalom in Zagreb yesterday was remarking that all the competitors have great technique but that they all ski with their own individual style. Backs up many of the points being made really.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

rob@rar, he's lost something on the slalom at the mo. Seems like his head, heart and feet are on different hills Confused

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Masque, yeah, I think he is past his prime and it seems to be the technical events that suffer first.

It's often Bode who gets cited when people want to argue that good/orthodox technique is not necessary. I've never understood this. he has to have astonishingly good technique to be able to use the tactics that he's famous for. Good technique doesn't mean that all skiers will look identical as they slide down the hill, it just means that they have more tools available to them and can use them in more complex situations as they see fit.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

sorry I started this and didnt reply, lost the internet, so have been using my phone to keep one eye on the topic, I think its been pretty much answered then, that I can still have fun and get down the steep stuff without lessons, but If i want to advance properly and do everything without worry, A few private lessons wouldnt go amiss.

Which puts me in a predicament really, heading out on a budget trip to an unplanned destination(not my choice,but 4 of the group have jumped the gun and booked) bansko, which from a quick browse isnt famed for its good instruction, so part of me is debating just going, skiing having fun, try learning switch etc. Or going over to the dark side and learning snowboarding for the week, since one lad is going to be doing that anyway, and it kind of maximises my lift:slope time (im hearing horrible things about lift queues), then coming back to skiing and getting some private lessons in tignes in march.

You'll need to Register first of course.

kev182, Grab a few lessons at Madeley instead before you go.

http://www.telford.gov.uk/skicentre

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

jzBun, good shout.

jzBun, Never a truer word spoken, very well put.

Help!!

is correct form crucial to good skiing?

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees