 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rockyrobin, Have you tried skiing with the 2nd buckle loose/undone ? This gives more flex, without changing the boot. WD40/GT85 can help to ease flex too..... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ski, it may give more flex, but it gives less control, because you would be flexing within the boot, not flexing with the boot.
rockyrobin, the marks you've shown are correct. Given that your boot is riveted together, it would be easier to create the grooves with either a router, small angle grinder or perhaps garden secateurs.
I'd also suggest removing, or reducing the height of the rear spoiler (the purple thing in the photo)
A final adjustment is to remove some of the front of the cuff. This may be preventing forward flex because the cuff is hitting the top of the foot part of the boot (can't think of the proper name for that bit right now!)
If I remember, I'll post pictures later of what it looks like when done to a Technica boot.
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rockyrobin, I little hand held 'Dremel' router will do the job in situ if you're careful. They also have a little flexi-shaft for awkward corners.
Re riveting a boot to meet manf. strength standards may not be possible at home?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, Thanks for the idea of the dremel. I've always wanted an excuse to get one. I'll go and see if I can pick one up this afternoon.
Cheers 
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Bear in mind adding / increasing the size of the slots will reduce boot strength, I suggest removing a smaller amounnt and gradually increasing the slot size rather than doing it all in one go, it is quite possible that other parts of the boot will act on the stiffness so just remove a little bit and test, bear in mind it will be impossible to put material back
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
If I remember, I'll post pictures later of what it looks like when done to a Technica boot. |
High resolution, please? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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RR, looks reasonable, you're a brave soul! Is the flex fairly uniform now?
As that boot ought to have the laceup liners, can you put the shells (not liners) in the freezer for a slightly more accurate test?
For my own leg, I would follow WTFH's advo and take that pink thing out, but I like an upright boot.
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
If I remember, I'll post pictures later of what it looks like when done to a Technica boot. |
You're not off the hook, buddy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rockyrobin wrote: |
Should I be tweaking this to make the boots flex travel stop just before the cuff bottoms out or should I be doing as suggested and butchering my front lower cuff too?
Will removing the spoiler pull me more upright?
I used to be an expert in back seat driving  so don't want to encourage an upright stance again.
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Hmm, too many factors there for a pat answer. I'd have an instructor look at my stance before further work.
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I've emailed Nordica about this and also about getting the size 26 footbases to go under the liners but they appear to be ignoring me  |
Ah, welcome to the club, pull up a chair, have a brandy, the cigars are over there.
I couldn't find anyone who has Beasts any longer let alone 26. There is Altrec and yes, I was tempted to just order. That is the Beast, not the Beast 12, I know, but the Beast 12 is even rarer for us apparently.
Apologies for the brandy; it is only VS as I'm saving pennies for new Atommons next season.
WTFH, did anyone measure your ankle range of motion before they did this?
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You know it makes sense.
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comprex, They skied with me, then measured various joints and stuff. Can't remember what ankle movements were measured.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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rockyrobin, the new nordica parts store link was just posted over on Epic. Just now it seems to be running off the US site only www.nordicausa.com I had to go to IE to open the consumer parts store here. Very quirky behaviour, and they have no liners, but it might be something to keep an eye on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rockyrobin, at least it was a brick wall, not cement! What caused that fit of fury?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Has anyone any thoughts or seen any guidance to the amount of flex required and how to measure the range of movement etc.
Having read a lot of the threads here and on Epic and Witherell's 'The Athletic Skier' I cant seem to find a consensus on how much flex, what the ability to flex is meant to do and where the force causing the flex is generated.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bootfitters selling me boots that are so stiff that I cannot get the ankle flex I need
You don't believe in trying them on first? 
rockyrobin, "Would be interested to hear what other people think ankle flex is useful for" - no idea myself, I like to be held rock solid
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rockyrobin, David Murdoch, It's this difference in approach that is making me nervous about buying my next pair of boots.
I've read conflicting recomendations from both professional skiers and instructors over flex.
Maybe it's just a case of buy the stiff boot and soften it until I'm happy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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mesk1, Depends where you plan to aim for in your skiing ability?
We've been practicing an exercise of standing across a slope, standing on uphill ski with lower ski lifted with tip held over uphill ski. From this position you have to hop-turn round to face the other way in as few a hops as possible on just the one ski. This I tried with my stiff boots and ended up in the back seat at the end every time due to no ankle flex worth talking of.
Trying the same with soft flex boot is much easier and I can keep my weight forward using the ankle flex during hops and keep control of my stance and finish of turn much easier.
If I ever want to have a go at skiing a narrow couloire, I know which boots I will be wearing
From what i've heard and experienced myself, I do feel the guys and ladies wearing stiff boots they cannot generate ankle flex in are putting themselves at a disadvantage they need not have.
After what I have experienced myself on the snow, if a bootfitter/instructor was advocating stiff boots I would be looking elsewhere with my custom.
If any of the guys/ladies on here have done a Warren Smith course i'm sure they will concur what i'm saying.
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I do. I have problems too. I take it you're a willow rather than a Arnie? Because that seems to be my problem. (Not that I want to be an Arnie, you understand  )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rockyrobin wrote: |
Would be interested to hear what other people think ankle flex is useful for. |
I've recently come to think of ankle flex as allowing the hips to be forward whilst the body absorbs a mogul. Less ankle flex-hips further back.
However, I've had boots that were too soft to properly pressure some skis. So, I'm back full circle to my thoughts from 15 years ago, that boot flex should be matched to ski flex, stiff ski calling for stiff boot etc.
It's all too confusing. The virtual brandy bottle is by you, pass it on please?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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rockyrobin, I don't disagree with any comments made so far. However even if softer is the way forward I still can't see any way to get the right flex apart from trial and error.
Also I'm wondering whether having the correct amount of forward lean is as / more important, as I wouldn't need to flex as much to stay balanced.
I Just re-read this http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=18916&page=1&pp=30&highlight=ankle+motionEpic thread it's rather long but raises some interesting points, not sure it reaches any conclusions though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Interesting, I used to go for really stiff boots which tend to be uncomfortable and never fitted my calf muscles properly out of the box, this year I switched to a pretty stiff ski (Head GS Race setup) but with Rossignol Soft 1 Ski boots, ok these boots are not really soft flexing compared to some boots but they are much more flexible than the Salomon Xscream boots I was using, I had the boots set up with a 5mm heel lift under the footbed to give me plenty of foward lean but other than that and a custom (cheapish) footbed they were out of the box, result my skiing significantly improved, the greater flex of the boot allowed me to feel exactly what the ski was doing as it did it and respond accordingly, the soft structure of the boot ensured that it was tightly wrapped arround the whole of my foot without applying pressure at certain points only which made it much more comfortable.
Note however that I have very strong leg muscles (can leg press 260kg on one leg) I have always been able to make even the stiffest boot flex easily, so this year instead of depending on the boot for support I depended on my strength for support and concentrated on fine control instead.
Flexible boots are not a new idea, go back 30 years and most boots were made of leather and were only slightly stiffer than walking boots, plastic boots came in with modern safety bindings and required people to change their skiing technique, my mother who never gave up her leather boots skiied far more with her ankles than my father who switched to plastic boots, both were good skiers just that they had different styles
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rockyrobin, rock solid just means i have to putting considerable force into getting them to flex. I find it gives me (a lot) more precision. I also like a very snug fit. Oddly enough, D G Orf, the opposite of what you experienced. Maybe I need to re-examine -always open to ways to improve! But I Know I prefer my old stiffer tecnicas to my new softer ones.
I don't think boot stiffness necessarily throws one backwards, but can see how it might contribute. Interestingly, many years ago I asked an ex-GB downhiller mate whether I should crank my forward lean forward to help me lean forward. His advice was that one should be able to get oneself forward and that if sitting back was an issue, increasing forward lean would simply mean you still sat back with your calfs at a more acute angle. Which makes sense. In general I believe boots are more upright now than, say, 10 years ago.
One practical suggestion - if you can get hold (eBay??) of a pair of Salomon SX92s they had 5 stiffness adjustments and 3 (I think) lean settings. I'm not owning up to ever owning a pair (we've all done things we've been embarassed about) but they may let you play around with flex and angle and work out what you like. You will of course then need to have them in the next shop so you can compare as I can't think of any way to measure the stiffness (obviously the lean angle is trivial).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In fact, here's a link to SX91s. http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16061&item=7161214142&rd=1
The lean angle is slightly trickier as you unscrew the front cuff and literally rotate for and aft. I think the angles were 17, 19 and 21 degrees. Stiffness much easier with two wedges above the forefoot. You simply made them get more in the way of the front cuff to stiffen. I found 3rd or 4th stiffest best with the stiffest effectively locking the boot being a little extreme. THinking about it, the total lack of progression in flex might have had as much to do with it...
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David Murdoch, in the end I suspect there is no perfect general answer, certainly if I wanted to race I'd like as not put on the stiffer X-Scream boots but for day to day skiing I find the softer Rossignols much more enjoyable and I think that as much as anything else gives me more control, I've had custom foamed race boots in the past and I could get far maore flex out of them than should be possible so I learned to adapt my technique accordingly thus a soft boot or stiff boot only alter how much force I put into the ski slightly wheras there should thooretically be a marked difference
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch, the pics have a logo SX92 ? I still have SX94s and am quite happy with them. The flex adjustment is so simple - the little blue button you can see in the eBay photo slides into 5 positions. I still remember the bootfitter demonstrating that at one end of flex settings he could safely put a finger in that slot across the boot - and at the other it would be crushed. Nothing wrong with a comfy adjustable back entry boot - IMO.
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More interesting comments, I'm not sure how leg strength directly affects the boots flexing. The only muscle group which I can see which would appear to allow me to directly flex the boot is the Anterior Tibialis and I don't think mine are anywhere near strong enough to overcome even a soft boot.
Although I can see that strong legs may help resist forces that would cause me to collapse onto the front of the boot.
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mesk1, that's if the boot is in free space. Don't forget the boot has most of your weight on or in it, pressing it to the ground.
Perhaps it is better to think of it as a spring-loaded (by the boot flex) shift of your weight distribution.
kuwait_ian,  The SX series is in a class by itself. Remember those square-toed Nordica abominations? <shudder>
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kuwait_ian, my apologies for any offence, I know lots of people like the rear entry idea. I just get a closer fit from a well adjusted front entry. Entertainingly, I understand Dominique Perret's company Thema engineering is planning (?)/producing (?) a hybrid mid entry boot for high performance. Check out www.skier.ch if you're interested.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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D G Orf, I see what you mean. I guess I just prefer a harder boot. Please be aware I cannot press 260kgs!!! I can see how you might overpower pretty much anything.
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comprex, Am I right interpreting your comments as the flex is balancing out my weight and the forces acting upon me allowing smaller muscle groups to fine tune my positioning ........... or am I way off target still
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