What's old is new again

A snowHead

Counter: it's not about fashion, it's about balance.

Images courtesy of www.YourSkiCoach.com

A snowHead

Here's one I prepared earlier wink

Any good?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Hehe, that's made me laugh, having just come back from a course where I was told that you don't/shouldn't counter when you carve. (Or words to that effect.)

You need to Login to know who's really who.

looks like the racers are 'countering' in order to take a tighter line on the gate - hardly relevent to recreational skiers

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

red 27, not sure about that, actually. Carving on piste is all very well, but when it's crowded, huge carved turns across the width of the piste can be quite dangerous. It's sometimes necessary to take a tighter line, even for recreational skiers. Not, presumably, that most recreational skiers could possibly achieve that position. What amazing edge angles, even in that apparently contorted stance. It almost looks as though someone has photo-shopped the picture, by swivelling the head, torso and legs independently like something out of Monty Python!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

rob@rar, if that's part of the sequence you've posted on fb, you may have survived to the next gate, but not necessarily to the end of the course! wink

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Hurtle,

Not every run ended in wipeout. Just some of them.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Can someone explain what we're looking at for us mere mortals?

snow reports

Not sure about the first two but the bloke at the bottom isn't holding his mouth right.

Monium, this may help as it has an explanation of counter

http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Counter.html

Try projecting a line forward from the direction the skis are pointing and another from the direction their chest is facing... the difference is counter... If they are the same then they are skiing 'square'

You know it makes sense.

This is skiing square

http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Square.html

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Oh was also taught the same thing by an Italian National team coach(and recent first seed WC DH racer)... his description was to try to get head over outside ski tip - but same thing in how he wanted it to go

A snowHead

FastMan, Heheheh. . . I love it when a plan comes to fruition and your poor divided skier's heads begin to understand snowboarding. What you're showing is the ski equivalent of 'torquing' or 'pedal steering' a snowboard.

Essentially, to drive a ski or board into and through the first half of a carve you need to load the insertion edge to cut and develop the flat compressed snowtrack that the running base sits and slides on. The cleaner and deeper that first cut, the better the base of the carve track. So, up to a point, the more that the tip (insertion edge) is pressured, the cleaner the carve. It's when you put too much pressure you'll see one of two things happen. The tip (usually just the weighted ski) folds too far back and presents a flat blade to the snow surface and either digs in and you go arseoverapex or it stops carving and just slides away from you and you wash-out facing forward. Watch some slalom crashes in slow-mo to see it happen.

However, getting your mass forward to pressure the tip unweights the tail(s) of the ski(s)/board. These will then ride up out of the carve track and skid often leading to a backward spinning slide on your side down the hill.

'Counter' position corrects this by applying a sideways or lateral force in conjunction with the forward pressure to keep the tail of the ski(s) engaged in the carved track groove. On a snowboard this is achieved by 'pedalling' the rear foot to twist the tail of the board into its carve track.

By keeping the tail(s) of the ski/board in the carved track it enable the rider through the turn transition to un-'counter' and move their mass insertion point back along the running surface so that the carved turn finish uses the stored kinetic energy in the ski(s)/board to fire them out of the turn and on to the next one.

So. . . while all you lycra louts are contorting yourselves over a speeding chamber-pot (well that's what it looks like), we boarders, with a zen grace and calmness simply tweak our tootsies to achieve our 'oneness' with the snow. Twisted Evil

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

rob@rar, Angulation is a product of needing to create that sideways pressure. If you can apply a lateral force without a 'counter' position then you don't need much angulation. As a snowboarder I can carve just as tight or tighter on a board with almost no angulation . Angulation also moves the center of mass downhill past the insertion edge and increases edge pressure and thus possible increased edge angle. You have to look at the situation of a carve a sum of parts, all of which are a balance of forces. It's how you create and control those forces that defines the quality of the carve.

As an example, you can get insane angles of lean and tight clean carves in firm hero snow without angulation because the carve track is so deep that the tails of the skis cannot wash out of the track. Edge pressure is more important than edge angle as it's the curvature of the ski in tension that defines the carve radius. Keeping the edge engaged along the complete running surface is the primary goal.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Some of us never stopped countering Little Angel

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

rob@rar, This thread is about 'Counter'. Driving the inner hip forward creates a lateral torque from the boot (it is primarily the downhill ski) into the ski at the same time as increasing tip load keeping the whole length of the ski edge in the carve channel and as you point out counter positioning increases the skier's ability to angulate, adding to the edge pressure.
Counter without driving the weight forward is twist steering and the skis will turn down the hill. Though at easy carving angle speeds and angles you can just use hip-lead and counter without angulation to carve cleanly, only applying angulation as speeds and angles increase to keep your edges in the groove. Have a play.

If we have a chance I'll show you how this works with a snowboard and how you can use this technique to carve hard alpine turns on Tele. (as long as the tele skis have softish tips)

After all it is free

Masque, Good description that you wrote at 11:55

Masque, so in essence you're saying a countered position creates a torque on the ski boot which helps ensure the tail of the ski follows the tip of the ski when carving? Sorry to be dim about this, but I'm having trouble following the mechanics of what you're saying.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

rob@rar, You've got it, by twisting into a countered position you have to meet a resistance otherwise you'll fall over. The only thing 'countering the twist is the interface between you and your boot/ski mechanism and that just transfers to the tail of the ski. The downhill torque generated in front of your boots is overcome by your forward force into the tips. Angulation just adds edge pressure to the mix, It's your body position that ensures that the edge pressure is distributed accurately.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Masque, OK. In what way is that better at keeping the ski in a clean carve than simply standing on the centre of the ski and tipping it on to its edge?

snow reports

rob@rar, It depends on how hard you want to carve or modify the turn shape. The 'park and ride' position is ideal and comfortable for bimbling (quite quickly if you want) on blues and smooth reds. When you're centred over the ski you are relying solely on the flex curvature of the ski to define the carve shape and the radius of the turn, tip and tail are equally weighted and will stay in the carve track.
But as you know there is a limit as to how fast or angled you can get if you stay centred. It's also very difficult to recover from the unexpected if you are a passenger on the skis as you describe, as opposed to being the driver and being able to define or change the path of the carve at will. I also find that the centred position ... Something I have to use predominantly if using alpine technique on tele kit ... is more tiring on the legs than being more dynamic in getting into, through transition and exiting a carved turn.

Are you going to any of the bashes? Want to spend a couple of hours playing with this?

Masque, standing centred and square to your skis does not have to equal park & ride. You can shape the turn by increasing or decreasing the angle your ski is tipped on to it's edge. I don't agree that there is a limit to how fast or angled you can get if you stay square and centred. For example, here's Ligety and Maier showing not much counter and some extreme angles:

To me it really doesn't look like either of them are bimbling about anywhere wink

There more you twist your body into a countered position the less "stacked" you are (skeletally aligned) so the less able you are to work with the large forces generating when skiing fast large radius turns. Some counter can be helpful if it enables you to be better balanced on your outside ski when you are angulated (therefore generating a little bit of extra edge angle) but unless you are very strong it can be easily overdone. For recreational skiers I think it is much better on focusing on the basics (clean transition, stable platform to balance on, incline in to the turn then progressively become angulated if the line you are taking requires it) than it is to get overly-complicated by twisting hips and upper body into a position which can easily become weak.

There's a slim chance I'll be at the EoSB, but I have three weeks of skiing planned for May so I'm not sure I can also squeeze in a trip to VT in April Sad

You know it makes sense.

rob@rar, The countered position is not maintained throughout the turn. At about (FAstMan will correct if I'm off far) 2/3 through the carve the counter will have eased off to near square as the skier is moving his mass back along the running surface and on exiting the carve will already be driving what will be the inner hip forward. Looking at the spume trail behind him, I'd say that Mr. Ligety is well past mid turn and already looking at the next gate.

I agree with you that first steps to carving need to be relatively simple and easy to both demonstrate and observe and I think that FastMan does like a very dynamic form of skiing that requires both a higher level of commitment and athleticism from the skier. I'm also well aware that many people have so little activity in their lifestyle that it's very difficult for them to understand, interpret and respond to physical feedback, particularly while moving over an irregular and visibly obscure surface. Let alone understand how the ski itself is performing a function.

The balance in a 'countered' high speed carve is enhanced by (dare I say it

) enhanced inner tip lead. But again that's a dynamic and not maintained through the whole turn. In your example, I'd estimate that Mr Ligety has already drawn back the inner ski in prep for the transition over to the next turn.

Angulation increases edge pressure not angle, but it does allow a higher angle to be achieved if wanted.

Sorry to miss you, it'd be fun to put some practical into the discussion.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

rob@rar, First pic looks countered not square to me...Chest and hips do not point same way as skis.

Second is hard to tell from that single shot... but the position will also vary through the turn as you set up for the next turn you will need to decrease the counter from the previous turn... So early in the turn a skier may be still creating their counter by skiing into counter through a state of rotated and neutral.

I've taken video of the top guys at Beaver Creek WC(SG and GS) and Loveland NorAm(SL). As soon as Fastman gets it downloaded and hosted I'll get him to post some... but in general those guys did not appear to be skiing square.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Forgive me if I seem a bit simple saying this but from what I can tell from visual observation: A large part of what dictates where a racer's chest and head will point, in relation to the skis, is to do with looking for and lining up for the next gate. I just watched Marlies Schild in action in slalom and her head and chest pointed straight down the hill for the whole run and didn't appear to turn at all. Obviously her skis were turning the most beautiufl smooth arcs you can imagine.

I know it's considered old school to face down the fall line while carving, but that's the way I've always done it, and always will. People like to coach the square method a lot, but keeping the upper body down the line as it were, basically seems to automatically introduce counter. I've had the odd go down a GS course and believe me if you try to ski it too square on the skis, you will not see the next gate early enough, if you are travelling at all fast.

What I'm trying to say is that they may not be countering deliberatley, but just may be countered as a result of other action - ie looking where they want to go. This also would explain why the countering changes so much during the course of a turn as the skis come round into line for the next gate. Puzzled

You'll need to Register first of course.

beeryletcher, Your observations are correct but the identification of counter in the first picture of Ted comes from the alignment of his pelvis relative to his skis not that of his upper body. Current race technique is basically to try to keep the pelvis square to the skis.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Of course you're all ignoring the elephant in the butter dish rolling eyes

You all babble on about technique and cheerfully forget that you are skiing on apples and oranges.
Racers skis have been getting longer and the sidecut radii shallower. These are not your punter (trademark E-Zcarve) wide shovel, fatarse, make you yhink you ski like a god over the counter skis. Of course it's relatively easy to stay square and centred on 'carving' skis, they are designed to forgive poor technique and still keep your edges in the carve track.

If you want to carve a pair of the monster long, stiff and big radius racing skis you are going to have to get it right or eat a tree.

The skis are part of the equation when discussing technique, please remember that. Little Angel

After all it is free

rob@rar, this site really needs a 'tongue in cheek' smiley . . . for both of us. wink

But Shirley you can't deny that the design crossover from snowboarding combined with new materials adding to torsion control has gifted you two-plankers with equipment that makes carving much easier and has hugely widened the 'sweet-spot' on these skis where it doesn't require much more than staying balanced in the centre and being able to roll onto an edge to allow you to carve. The manufacturers recognise this and design skis to suit the recreational skier who will habitually stay within a narrow range of body movement over the ski. The manufacturers have designed skis for the mass of people who will never challenge themselves to learn the 'sport'. They are learning to use a 'white good' a piece of recreational equipment to give them a good feeling.

So, you have to ask yourself, are you coaching a sport or teaching someone to drive . . . that's the real point in this thread, one that's been completely overlooked, you don't contradict me regarding the changes to race skis that require competitors to use and develop older techniques to ride them effectively . . . unless?

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Help!!

What's old is new again

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees