 Poster: A snowHead
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Recently my jacket has started falling apart, and I decided its time to get some new gear. For base layer it seems that the icebreaker stuff is the way forward, but I would like some advice on Jackets.
After reading the newby winter clothing guide, I think the soft shell hard shell combo seems very nice.
If it understand correctly, the soft shells are warm enough and wind and water proof, so unless it is very cold or windy they should be fine to where. The hard shell would be if it was very cold/windy (how cold are we talking about?).
Through reading some of the posts I have heard of some good soft shell clothing eg the Arc'teryx Atom jacket but I would like a few different jackets, so that I can try them on and see which fits best.
I don't really have too much of an idea about the hard shells (What sort of prince are we talking about?)
I am male, and have a total of about £400-500 to spend. I will (this season atleast) be skiing in the Alps around Geneva and think the use of the soft shell in the warmer months will be good.
So I would really appreciate some advice on soft shell and hard shell's to get.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hard shell is also fine in the warm particularly if you get one with pit zips - basically the shell part means it is a waterproof/windproff/breathable layer with no insulation, which leaves you the flexibility to layer your thermals according to temperature. If money was no object I'd be wearing one of the Sweet Protection hardshells, but Norrona, Haglofs, TNF (summit series), Arcteryx, Mountain Equipment, Peak Performance etc also have properly top notch offerings. RRP on most of those is closer to £500 than £400 (possible exception of ME and TNF), but if you can wait 'til the end of season sales you can get them considerably cheaper - this summer I paid £125 for a £280 TNF shell.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Moncler.
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clarky999 thanks for the information. So what are the soft shells for then?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think there's quite a lot of blurring between the lines of what's a hard and soft shell. The names come from hard shells feeling 'hard' or crispy on the outside, while softshells are 'soft' and almost fleecy - in *general* a softshell will be more breathable but less waterproof. If you were to only have one, *probably* it should be a hardshell, but that also depends a bit on the conditions your likely to be skiing in - do you find blizzards/storms fun, or would you be heading down to the bar if caught in one?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| I think there's quite a lot of blurring between the lines of what's a hard and soft shell. The names come from hard shells feeling 'hard' or crispy on the outside, while softshells are 'soft' and almost fleecy - in *general* a softshell will be more breathable but less waterproof. If you were to only have one, *probably* it should be a hardshell, but that also depends a bit on the conditions your likely to be skiing in - do you find blizzards/storms fun, or would you be heading down to the bar if caught in one? |
So clarky999, what would this jacket be?
http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?EN/Mens/Ski-Snowboard/Sabre-SV-Jacket#Jackets
as it says it is soft shell, but seems waterproof, warm and windproof. I mean would something like this do for all but the worst blizzards?
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It should be fine - SV in Arcetryx speak = 'Severe' (as in for sever conditions). *Apparently* the goretex softshells aren't 'true' softshells, but are soft feeling hardshells - some gubbins from marketing/patent/stuff about the waterproofing/taped seams and so on (could be to do with degrees of waterproofness?) that could just be semantics...
That might well be rubbish btw - and I'd be suprised if the Arcteryx isn't fine in most/all conditions.
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Right so that stuff ^^^ sounded stupid even as I wrote it, so I asked my hoursemate this morning (he works at Cotswold Outdoors and gets trained by the manufacturers reps on selling this sort of stuff).
To the pedants, it's not a true softshell if it has a membrane - like the goretex softshells (the membrane is the bit that makes them waterproof). It can't be marketed as waterproof unless it has taped seams. So the Arcteryx softshell is technically a 'soft-feeling-hardshell' (to the pedants), will have taped seams, and is likely to be a great jacket that is very waterproof. It may not be quite as waterproof as the full goretex pro hardshells though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You can't go wrong with any of the Scandinavians - Peak Performance, Helly Hansen or SOS....
I like my SOS - handy arm pocket for the hands free lift passes, nice clipped on cleaning cloth in the breast pocket for your glasses/goggles, and a good hood - worth checking the hood, whether it's easy to lift up and unobstructive, makes those times on long cold chairlifts a lot easier amognst other things.
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So I went to a shop in Thonon which had lots of clothes. It only really had three jackets that I think were soft-shell (defined by GorTex).
There was:
Arc'teryx sabre SV- this was the first I tried on, a lot thinner than I was expecting, but nice. I didn't like the cut and look too much, but I think I like that kind of jacket and want to try on some other Arc'teryx jackets. (Anyone suggest anywhere in Manchester of central London to find Arc'teryx) : ~450€
Haglofs (Not sure of the product name) - This felt about the same thinness, but I think it was a nicer look to it. I will also be following up on this one. ~475€
Kjus Fusion: This was a bit thicker (and not goretex, so not sure if technically softshell). This was very smart, but was a lot more (600-700€). Haven't heard much about the brand before, any advice about them?
So really now, I need to just try on some when I get back to UK, my trip to the store was a success (found out I am a Medium in all brands).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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brunny, Kjus tends to be worn by rich Russians.
Btw the whole point of shells is that tey are thin!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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clarky999 I realised they were going to be thin, but boy they were very thin.
So do you think that the Kjus are worth the money, or not better than other brands we discussed?
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Personally, I'd go with the proper mountaineering brands like Arcteryx/Haglofs...
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You know it makes sense.
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I got a 'Descente' jacket half price (500 down to 250) in the Blues sale this Summer. It is a fantastic jacket, fairly horrendous at Cairngorm last Saturday and my body didn't know. Soft, very soft.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I recommend the Salomon Sideways 3L jacket - I felt that some of the more expensive hardshells - Arteryx / Norrona although very light would not stand up to the abuse I give them - climbing over rocks etc in search of the perfect powder line. Have ripped through previous shells.
The material used by Salomon feels much thicker and more heavy duty - although slightly heavier than the others.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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clarky999, The Mountain Equipment Changabang is firmly in that bracket and you can get them in last years model for about £250. I love mine... very highly rated jacket with huge pit zips, shoulder pass pocket and zip out snow skirt.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
Right so that stuff ^^^ sounded stupid even as I wrote it, so I asked my hoursemate this morning (he works at Cotswold Outdoors and gets trained by the manufacturers reps on selling this sort of stuff).
To the pedants, it's not a true softshell if it has a membrane - like the goretex softshells (the membrane is the bit that makes them waterproof). It can't be marketed as waterproof unless it has taped seams. So the Arcteryx softshell is technically a 'soft-feeling-hardshell' (to the pedants), will have taped seams, and is likely to be a great jacket that is very waterproof. It may not be quite as waterproof as the full goretex pro hardshells though. |
I asked arcteryx this specific question, THEIR soft and hard-shells (goretex) are as waterproof as each other, the hard shell is more breathable.
For the op, both Ellis brigham & snow & rock stock arcteryx I believe.....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Have to echo Mollerski. I bought mine (same jacket) last year, and despite my holiday only lasting 3 days (collar bone breaking high speed wipeout!), I got to use it in almost all conditions and found it to be watertight, very breathable, and it allowed great freedom of movement. It feels absolutely bullet-proof too! It really does feel like it'll last for years.
An added bonus of going for a thin shell is that it's really handy for walking etc in this country as you can layer up as much or little as you want.
It is expensive but you know what they say, buy cheap, buy twice!
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I got Cloudveil RPK Parka goretex shell (hard?soft?) last year and I am very pleased with it so far.
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I've worn my Keela jacket supplied by admin for years. Works well in extreme weather - and for spring skiing well-placed zips provide excellent ventilation. You can pay more for a fashion item - but I doubt you'll have a much better jacket.
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I had the first run out in my new Arc'teryx Sabre SV at the weekend. Personally I love the look and feel of it - and can echo the 'hard shell with a soft feel' sentiment. It was the first time I have tried a shell jacket.
I had a skins thermal shirt on, with a Icebreaker base layer and Icebreaker mid-layer on. For the most part this was absolutely fine, apart from at the coldest moments when a slightly thicker fleece mid layer would have been appreciated. This was only really on the chairlifts - skiing was fine.
However it had great freedom of movement and lightness, and will be great for the whole season.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ever since I tried on a Spyder jacket in Snow and Rock then fell about laughing at the price (£750), I've wondered who on earth buys such things. I've got an £80 Trespass jacket which has kept me perfectly warm and dry through eight weeks of every conceivable condition over five seasons. It still feels solidly made, if a touch bulky, and will be coming out to Whistler with me next month.
What more would I get by spending six times as much?
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Arc'teryx jackets are over hugely priced, of course if you have the cash, why not, same as with most things you are into the top end of diminishing returns for your wedge.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ajrduff wrote: |
Ever since I tried on a Spyder jacket in Snow and Rock then fell about laughing at the price (£750), I've wondered who on earth buys such things. I've got an £80 Trespass jacket which has kept me perfectly warm and dry through eight weeks of every conceivable condition over five seasons. It still feels solidly made, if a touch bulky, and will be coming out to Whistler with me next month.
What more would I get by spending six times as much? |
Rich russians buy spider.
With regard to the expensive goretex shells, skiers/tourers and mountaineers who will be a long way offpiste and away from lifts/mountain restaurants/etc want quality kit they can trust to keep them warm (but not hot) and dry in any conditions. Also if you do a lot of skiing it quickly becomes evident that quality kit lasts continuous use/abuse much better. IME you usually get what you pay for.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
Right so that stuff ^^^ sounded stupid even as I wrote it, so I asked my hoursemate this morning (he works at Cotswold Outdoors and gets trained by the manufacturers reps on selling this sort of stuff).
To the pedants, it's not a true softshell if it has a membrane - like the goretex softshells (the membrane is the bit that makes them waterproof). It can't be marketed as waterproof unless it has taped seams. So the Arcteryx softshell is technically a 'soft-feeling-hardshell' (to the pedants), will have taped seams, and is likely to be a great jacket that is very waterproof. It may not be quite as waterproof as the full goretex pro hardshells though. |
I asked arcteryx this specific question, THEIR soft and hard-shells (goretex) are as waterproof as each other, the hard shell is more breathable.
For the op, both Ellis brigham & snow & rock stock arcteryx I believe..... |
Many "softshells" are a hardshell and soft shell combined (i.e. a softshell with a membrane). When the water vapour has to get through two layers or one thicker layer the jacket will be less breathable.
It appears to me that less is more - if you need high breathability go softshell (without membrane) if you need high 'waterproofness' go hardshell and fleece. Unsure when a holiday skier would really need 'waterproofness', if the weather was that bad he/she wouldn't normally be skiing.
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I think, DB, that waterproofing is important. Many times I have skied while the snow falls, it may be falling as rain at low levels in the resort. Just a little higher up the mountain the snow and the air feel damp. Add a little body heat passing through the clothing and you get a wet layer from snow melting on your clothes.
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You know it makes sense.
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I agree with Adrian, I have skied in wet snow, rain (at Glencoe) and a mixture of both depending on my height!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Unsure when a holiday skier would really need 'waterproofness', if the weather was that bad he/she wouldn't normally be skiing.
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Not sure....I'd almost say the opposite. If a holiday skier only has their 6 days skiing in the year then they're more than likely be out whatever the conditions.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Agree with the above, I think waterproofness is very important - especially your trousers as sitting on damp chairlifts is not nice.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I bought my Spyder jacket in Jan of this year-2010 model,reasonably light weight compared to my old one and it is toasty - big pit zips,plenty of useful pockets-no hood which is my personal preferance and cost me 200$ in Macy's,New York - full retail value,not sales and I'm a very ordinary salaried Irishman !!!
Try Macy's on-line shop if you are prepared to risk the C + E. By the way I also nearly keeled over when I saw the price in S+R. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ajrduff wrote: |
Ever since I tried on a Spyder jacket in Snow and Rock then fell about laughing at the price (£750), I've wondered who on earth buys such things. I've got an £80 Trespass jacket which has kept me perfectly warm and dry through eight weeks of every conceivable condition over five seasons. It still feels solidly made, if a touch bulky, and will be coming out to Whistler with me next month.
What more would I get by spending six times as much? |
Nubile women/men [delete as appropriate] stroking your lapels 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Keep talking jonty - my wife is the only nubile woman allowed to stroke my lapels - even if I'm only clad in Spyder !!! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Haglofs and AT softshells are as waterproof as any hard shell in real world situations - owned both, given 'em some stick and neither have leaked. Gore softshell waterproofness is about 28000Nmm I think, which is better than 99% of hardshells...
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| Quote: |
Gore softshell waterproofness is about 28000Nmm I think, which is better than 99% of hardshells...
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That's 'cos a goretex softshell is, technically, a hard shell.
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I love my Saloman 3 in 1 softshell jacket and Salopettes, very soft, stretchy, comfortabe and warm. 10,000mm waterproof and 10,000 l/h breathing. Wear then around town on rainy days. A year old now and still perfect despite lots of snowdome use, 4 weeks on the slopes and travelling around the world with me
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just skimmed so not sure if this has been mentioned but when buying a hardshell regardless of brand. I'd be looking more at the goretex material used (proshell, prolite, performance shell etc) In my experience all the top end jackets use proshell.
I wear a mountain hardwear hardshell (with proshell fabric) and an arcteryx softshell underneath. I have never had an issued. I did have a mountain equipment with prolite and I was pretty disappointed. Some jackets focus on being packable and fairly light weight so make sure you get something substancial (not in thickness but in material) and you'll be on to a winner.
I think using the combination will offer flexibility to difference conditions, for easter I either use just a base layer and hardshell or if it's a little colder the base layer and softshell. For winter the three layers is always warm enough.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks for all the great advice. I was in the Snow and Rock in Manchester and tried on the arc'teryx sidewinder, which I liked a lot. I plan to have a look in london at some more arc'teryx and Haglofs before getting it in London (before my week in Chamonix). Any suggestions of were to look in London would be appreciated.
I guess I should have a look for Mid layers while I am there. What do you all think, if I have a soft or hard shell with icebreaker 200 (is that the ideal, or is the all weather 150 better for layering), what should I be looking for my midrange. Taking into account this season I will only be skiing Alpes.
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brunny, if you can hang on until the sales start in March you may find the high end jackets get reduced a fair bit.
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FAQ
Good layering is also key. I carry a 
