 Poster: A snowHead
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When does someone know not to take lessons any more? I am a 3 week (and 2 weekend) skier and can confidently ski on blues and getting much better on reds (although did a black halfway down when I was in Les Deux Alpes). I think I am not too bad (ask easiski!). However, I can't get to grips with the technical side of things (still can't figure out which ski is the downhill ski!!!). When does someone know when to stop taking lessons?
Also, do you think that skiing is like any skill - (i.e. riding a bike) - you never forget how to do it.
Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you read this thread
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=6919&highlight=
You'll have a better idea.
As for your question
| Quote: |
| When does someone know when to stop taking lessons? |
usually when you feel confident on reds. then after a few years bombing around and reinforcing all your bad technique, you cometo realise that you're actually pretty crap and need to tak more lessons
Here endeth the voice of experience
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Never  You'll always get something from lessons, different lessons of course, you'll maybe feel less inclined to take a week of ski school and more inclined to take something more focused maybe with someone like EasiSki or look at performance course or off piste etc etc. Personally, I've had three full weeks of lessons and courses this season and a few hours with EasiSki.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I agree with ise.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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laundryman,
Me too!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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jb1970,
Of which snowHeads just can't let go of an argument 
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jb1970, You don't always have to take lessons, but you'll always have to take lessons. I'd keep going with pretty regular lessons until you're good enough to know what control on skis entails, at which time you'll also know your limitations. At that point you may be content not to try to improve any further, and to continue only to ski within those limitations, but unless you have uncommon self-knowledge you'll have to keep having irregular lessons just to make sure you don't unintentionally start to slide backwards.
maggi, Not fair. The argument wouldn't let go of me! 
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Never, everybody can always improve !
Just scale the lessons down to concentrate on certain items, take individual tuition, just a few hours a year makes a big difference.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not an expert skier, but I've skiied for about 20 years and I'm comfortable on (almost) all pisted runs and a bit of off piste (OK, so I'm an unathletic slow learner). I take lessons and I enjoy them. The ones I've taken over the last 5 years have been the most useful (and the most enjoyable).
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jb1970, Almost everyone here will tell you that you never stop taking lessons as there's always something new to learn, however in general I'd say you no longer need to take lessons when you can safely negotiate any piste on the mountain in any weather, it's also possible that even when you reach this stage that you find it worthwhile taking a private lesson or two at the start of each holiday whenever you visit a new resort as it's a great way to get a guided tour whilst at the same time getting some further tips on technique.
As for never forgetting I certainly didn't forget when I had a 10 year gap going from O levels till I finished at university, however you do get out of practice and you may loose confidence. By the way I just worked out that over the years I've had somewhere between 20 and 30 weeks worth of lessons and I'm still learning new things, however I'm fortunate in that I always return to the same resort and have a number of skiing friends there some of who are ski instructors so it's been several years since I actually paid for any lessons directly
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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One excellent reason for continuing instruction to a high level is that it cuts the fall and injury risk enormously.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Goldsmith, verry true, in two weeks of skiing this year I fell just once when I caught an inside edge on a rutted piste track and for a similar time period last year I didn't fall at all, I put that down to very good instructors from an early age
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| richmond wrote: |
| I'm not an expert skier |
But when u say you're not an expert, which scale are you 'not an expert' on? 
At any level, to believe your technique could not benefit from instruction would be a conceit. Whether u need it is a far more subjective judgement.
No matter how proficient u are, there is always going to be something to learn from a good instructor: after all, even the instructors are getting more training on a regular basis.
However, before we get all up-tight about it, we should remind ourselves that, barring one or two exceptions, we're all recreational skiers around here: we do it for fun!
Some people can get so worked up about how good they are or aren't that it can start to spoil the enjoyment of the experience.
Although greater technical ability is bound to increase the margin of safety, not being a 'good' skier doesn't necessarily make u a dangerous one (I've met a few technically excellent skiers who were more than a slight hazard to those around them). So, once u have acquired the basic skills to get around the mountain in a controlled manner, and more importantly, learnt to recognise your own limits, who is to say if u need instruction or need to get better at all?
The question is: do u want to ski better? In which case, instruction of some sort is going to help.
In the earlier stages in groups and fairly intensively, later on perhaps one- to-one with breaks between to practice or 'bed-in' the new skills.
In Jan this year, in a break from routine, Mme Brain decided to "let herself off" having lessons for the week. Suddenly freed from constantly practicing the minutiae of whatever technique had been imparted to her during her previous lesson, she began to relax a bit, looking at the hill before her, naturally starting to see the bigger picture re. her route down it and even started enjoying the falling sensation which, until then, had been worrying her half way through each turn. Consequently, her skiing improved dramatically over all, apparently through not having lessons. Of course, there's a limit to how much can be gained this way and it was just appropriate for her at that point. She's benefited from more instruction since but my point is: as useful as lessons are, there are times when u just need to chill-out and get on with enjoying it for yourself 
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You know it makes sense.
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I would agree with u brain.
I would also turn it around and say when do you need to take lessons? I would say that it was when you're ability level is hampering your enjoyment of the sport. I know a lot of people that have decided that they do not want to learn to do bumps/off-piste/whatever next and are happy just poodling around to their own agenda. They're happy enough and have no intention of taking any more lessons. That's the great thing about skiing, you can enjoy it at any level of ability.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
I would agree with u brain.
I would also turn it around and say when do you need to take lessons? I would say that it was when you're ability level is hampering your enjoyment of the sport. I know a lot of people that have decided that they do not want to learn to do bumps/off-piste/whatever next and are happy just poodling around to their own agenda. |
But I'll wager you'll never find anyone who enjoys their skiing less as their ability improves.
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Poster: A snowHead
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ise, I would agree with that too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ray Zorro, you're being very agreeable today - not that aren't usually, of course!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ultimately, skiing freely* is more enjoyable than being in a lesson, so that if you have limited skiing time each year, you won't want to be doing lessons all the time.
But I would very much second this
| ise wrote: |
| But I'll wager you'll never find anyone who enjoys their skiing less as their ability improves. |
* within your limitations and once you reach a realistic level of control
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 21-05-05 19:40; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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slikedges, I like being in lessons! They're sociable and it's fun to be extended, within an envelope the instructor knows is safe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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laundryman, don't get me wrong, I like them too, but there's nothing like the freedom of swooping down the mountain and riding the skis round whatever curve feels right at that moment, no-one else telling you where or when
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I just know someone will feel all hurt by this, but it's true so here we go .....
The prime reason a lot of people don't go in lessons is basically a feeling of inadequacy, they're simply concerned that they'll turn up and be told they're no good or be made to feel inadequate by other people on the course. Most of the other reasons are really cover for this.
How do I know? Because I was climbing instructor, I do teach IT, and for skiing, have had exactly the same feeling. The worry is you'll book in for some course and just not be cutting it and be like the fat kid on sports day.
I find it genuinely quite intimidating, when I started to take lessons again it took some nerve even to book a private lesson and to start take group sessions like Warren Smiths course, ICE performance courses or the BASI stuff was agonising. The longer you don't take lessons the harder it gets and the better trained your excuses get until you're nearly convincing yourself.
What can I say? It turns out the other people there think the same, and to ski with people in groups at those levels is more exhilarating than you can possibly imagine.
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| ise wrote: |
| It turns out the other people there think the same, and to ski with people in groups at those levels is more exhilarating than you can possibly imagine. |
That's exactly how I feel! Turning up for the first lesson of a week's ski school is as scary as peering down the steepest slope you've skied!
Although it is intimidating, skiing with a group of like-minded skiers who are all being pushed to the edge of their comfort zone, and beyond, by a first class instructor is the most rewarding skiing that I've ever had.
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| ise wrote: |
I find it genuinely quite intimidating, when I started to take lessons again it took some nerve even to book a private lesson and to start take group sessions like Warren Smiths course, ICE performance courses or the BASI stuff was agonising. The longer you don't take lessons the harder it gets and the better trained your excuses get until you're nearly convincing yourself.
What can I say? It turns out the other people there think the same, and to ski with people in groups at those levels is more exhilarating than you can possibly imagine. |
I couldn't agree more ise. First hour on a Warren Smith course felt pretty intimidating. Turned out the week was so good I did it again a few months later!
I felt the same before my first race training a few weeks ago as well but it was great fun.
I'm already getting twitchy about ESA 06 but can't wait to get stuck in.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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spyderjon, rob@rar.org.uk, I was hoping you two would pass by
I know you've both done high level courses and I thought you might know exactly what I meant.
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ise, rob@rar.org.uk, spyderjon, I've never done a high level course. Indeed I haven't done a group lesson for a while. The last group I did was I think an Alpine Action or Mountain Masters in Courchevel 1850 in the late 90's "advanced gp" (we all know, a misnomer ) and I remember it was exhilarating as it must have been the fastest ski school group certainly on each particular slope we we were on at the time, and we were all pretty much at the same standard so we'd sort of dominate each pitch briefly as we swept by and be gone. There was a kind of indefinable team spirit in that somehow. Haven't really crystallised the feeling; it might not be very worthy!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ise, I'm sure you're right.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jb1970, You may not WANT to have lessons - many people do, but we all NEED them. Of course the Valentin from half way is really just a goo LDA red. Grand Pente is a real black, as is the Grand Couloir or the Fee. Having said that the colour of the run isn't very important, but I'm concerned about the fact that you can't sort out which ski is which. You've obviously gone past the point of uphill and downhill ski, and should now be thinking about inside and outside ski. The ski on the outside of the corner is the turning ski, and the ski on the inside is irrelevant. Does this help?
ise, Very good points.
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Easiski - I think my problem is that if I think about the technical side of things, I get all confused about it. I am better just to do it. I probably do know which ski is which - like most people, I don't really think about it but, when I do, it all gets confusing. Hope this makes sense!!!!
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You know it makes sense.
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| easiski wrote: |
| The ski on the outside of the corner is the turning ski, and the ski on the inside is irrelevant. |
Um, I'm not sure about that (for me at least)
For me: the outside ski is the driving ski, and the inside one is the steering ski. If I want to make a turn tighter, then it's the inside ski that does the work, cause if I try to move the outside ski, I'll lose grip, speed and control. So, I go into a turn mainly on the outside ski, but the inside one refines the turn.
Does this make sense?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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jb1970, I think the point is that for you, although you are relatively inexperienced you do actually ski quite well technically. Therefore you're not a typical 3 week skier. I take your point though - and I can't say I noticed you on the wrong ski or anything like that.
Wear The Fox Hat, There are a lot of ways to tighten a turn, but you need to apply more pressure to the turning ski to flex it more. This can be a combination of pressure on the ski and pressure against the ski, with appropriate (lateral) body positioning, all of which is too compliated to explain in writing because the (lateral) body position is always relative to the ski, slope, speed and the body shape of the individual as well as their technical level. However I think that if you lose griip and control when you pressure the outside ski there must be a problem with your body position over that ski or a lack of angulation. This is, of course speculation. If the world cup racers use the outside ski, and the inside as a back-up then (given that they're the best skiers in the world), it seems to me that this is probably right. Using the inside ski works fine on moderate slopes, but too much reliance on it will cause problems on steep and icy slopes. Weight on the inside ski in these circumstances will result in the ski breaking away and causing a slide.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Easiski - Thank you for your kind words. I think it is a bit like, maybe driving a car, people don't think about it, they just do it. If somebody was to think about the technical side of driving a car, they would get all confused - well I would anyway and probably crash into a wall!!!!!
Thanks again
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| slikedges wrote: |
| maggi, Not fair. The argument wouldn't let go of me! |
Except that there wasn't an argument! At least not that rob@rar seemed able to identify, and I hadn't a clue what different point was being laboured either!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I tried to look at the photos, but in the UK at the mo with max 28,800 Kbps speed (PAYG)so had to give up. I will look a the photos thoroughly when I get back to France and have sensible broadband speed again!! I did look at the first few: Anya Person for instance clearly pressured her inside ski at changeover (pic 3 I think), and Maier appears to have max pressure on outside ski (notice the flex). I will reply as soon as I can really look.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, totally agree on most of the pressure being on the outside ski, but not all of it.
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easiski, Re slikedges comment. I've done a couple of Warren's courses so I'd also be interested in your comments re his 50:50 weighting (or as near as you can get it).
I've found that to get more weight on my inside ski (I'm certainly not 50:50 but I reckon I've got 25% on my inside ski when carving on reds & more on blues) I have to have more ankle flex & therefore I have to get my weight distribution right. This means I'm in the right position (hopefully) to instantly change my turn shape if required.
This contrasts to my earlier 'all the weight on the outside ski' method when I found that I could easily move in to the back seat a bit, end up loosing flex in the outside ankle & straightening the outside leg which then 'locked out' the ankle, leaving me unable to adjust the turn shape etc.
To acheive this more equal distribution Warren teaches what he calls 'thigh steering' in that the turn is initiated by rolling/rotating the inside thigh (or what's going to be the inside thigh) towards the inside of the turn which then sets the inside ski on edge (no foot steering allowed). This has the affect of pointing the inside knee where you want to go (that's how I think of it anyway) which removes any of my old tendancy of slightly A framing the inside leg which also caused my outside leg to straighten & 'lock out' etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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May be wrong but I think those images suggest that the inside ski is not having a big effect on Maier's direction. It looks like his inside ski is on a different radius from the outside one so if both followed their radius he'd end up doing the splits! My feeling is that this is probably a product of the weight coming right off that ski on the changeover. As the pressure builds as he goes past the fall line the skis become parallel again and he probably is using both to turn (although the outside on more).
As to when to stop with the lessons... never? I really enjoy private lessons. I'm pretty respectable so sometimes it's an off-piste lesson where the instructor gets to take me to all his favourite stashes and give me the odd tip. Sometimes it's piste work with gates or something else fun like that. I can understand people getting bored of group lessons, but private lessons either on your own or with some mates of a similar standard are always worth it if you ask me
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FAQ
