I would like you to look at a piece of film I made which is fairly self-explanatory.
It concerns a technique of my own (something Austrian ski instructors are not encouraged to have - we are supposed to follow doctrine - not think for ourselves!). It definitely works for me, and I might suggest, before you pull it to pieces, that you would have to try it before you could dismiss it.
skiday, Good, well put together video, I like the recomendations at the end.
The only concern I have with this technique is that you mention not to use your peripheral vision or look very far ahead, and I can see how this is key to the idea that your working with. But surely people need to be encouraged to look what is happening all around them, rather than looking at the tips of their skis. This might be why no-one else is teaching this, or any similar idea.
Maybe requires a bit of tweeking, considering the rise in collisions between snow users these days. Encourage them to ski on days with poor visibility, my Dad was coming on leaps and bounds until the cloud lifted and he could see the run. He'd been skiing that run all day, at his own choice until the sun came out at 3 o'clock. Mind you in Scotland we have lots of those days, maybe not so much of them in Austria.
P.s. I'm not an instructor, so my points maybe completely invalid.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Isn't it a simple message? Don't stare all the way down the slope as this will likely make you more anxious. Instead focus on where you're going to make the next half dozen turns, while generally making sure those next half dozen turns aren't going to take you on a route that leads over a cliff. Not sure there's anything revolutionary in that; if I'm teaching anyone who is a bit nervous I'll encourage them to imagine the next few turns they are going to make rather than stare all the way to the bottom of the hill.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I'm older, not in perfect health and carry long-term effects of previous (non-skiing) injury, so it's hardly surprising I am wary of further injury, but learning to ski gives me so much pleasure that I have the drive to try and deal with the fears.
My on-slope nervousness can be summed up as the fear that takes over in situations where I am not confident that I have the skills to deal with what might happen. It's not the actual falling, but the potential injury that occupies my mind. The effect is that I adopt a defensive body posture, which is a subconscious aim to soothe the mind (but it doesn't) and that posture makes the physical situation worse as the control is reduced and the feedback to my mind confirms that I cannot ski that terrain and feeds the fear.
I understand Alan R's concern that people need to be aware of what is around and not be focused on the ski tips, but I don't think that is what the video is advocating. If I stop and stand at the top of a steeper section of a slope and look down it before setting off I will ski it far worse than if I had just kept going. I have experience of skiing better simply because I was doing as I was told (a rare event!) and concentrating on looking at my instructor rather than down the slope and also of coping with a slope I thought I couldn't handle by dealing with it turn by turn rather than being freaked out by the whole scene. Also, as Alan's Dad found, a group of us skied new terrain fine in a lesson in foggy conditions. We went back the next day in sunshine and did far worse.
So, yes I do think there is a place for helping the nervous deal psychologically with the terrain and as rob@rar says the message is quite simple really, but he is someone who tries to work out what each individual needs rather than blindly taking a one-size-fits-all approach. No technique will work 100% for all people as we are all different. For me it's about instructors giving me a taste of a whole variety of tools, techniques and tips on a range of terrain in varying conditions whilst trying to ensure that my fears are starved, not fed. That way I build up a stock of positive experiences.
rob@rar, As Butterfly, says, you teach very much to the individual, even within a group, and therefore this kind of thing is second nature to you. skiday, seems to work in a system that does not make as much allowance for individual differences and hadn't come across an awareness of this particular technique in his colleagues. I can understand, therefore, why he wanted to share it through the well made and easy to follow video.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
But if I do this I will miss all the 'Snow Bunnies'
After all it is free
After all it is free
anarchicsaltire,
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Iski, I've only skied with Staatliche - but IME they are well aware of and make plenty of allowances for individuals... In fact I'd have said they understand the how to teach part very well... Then again 2 of those were also Aussie born and bred - so maybe a factor? I'd say though they are very well trained in sports psychology and sports science type issues. Perhaps the problems you describe are inherent in the lower level folks more than in austrians per se? I've had lessons with a few others - and had friends who worked with large bunches of them in Oz and US and found the same - well trained and very aware of good teaching strategies and personalities etc.
I'd also add the the instructors I've known who bleat about 'student centred teaching' the most were the least student centred. While the 'harder nosed' staatliche, race coaches etc were in fact the most student focused but more in actions than talking about it. They simply did not put students in such circumstances so readily as they were more aware of the potential for psychological melt down
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
little tiger, My comment regarding the system in which skiday, works was based purely on the impression I received from his comments prior to and in the video. I accept that may not be an accurate impression. Certainly, no criticism of the Austrian system or Austrian instructors was intended, especially as I have no experience of them! My comment to rob@rar was on the basis that although it is a simple message, I think the video demonstrates it very well for people who either have not encountered it in the instruction they have received or are tackling a slope they find challenging without an instructor. Personally, with only one or two exceptions (and yes, one of those was lower level) the instructors I have worked with have all provided good client focused instruction and support.
Possibly it might be more helpful if skiday just presented his video of the technique as a clear visual aid for skiers wishing to tackle slopes within their capability, but which they find challenging.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I found that very interesting and a well presented video clip. I can see that it has practical applications for both nervous beginners and intermediates moving up into more challenging terrain.
As for collision avoidance, the video clearly states look 2 or 3 turns ahead...not at your ski tips. You would just have to choose you slope with care and not try it on the home run at 4 o'clock.
Good Job.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
little tiger wrote:
skiday, I think you want "excerpt"
Bugg*r!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar wrote:
Isn't it a simple message? Don't stare all the way down the slope as this will likely make you more anxious. Instead focus on where you're going to make the next half dozen turns, while generally making sure those next half dozen turns aren't going to take you on a route that leads over a cliff. Not sure there's anything revolutionary in that; if I'm teaching anyone who is a bit nervous I'll encourage them to imagine the next few turns they are going to make rather than stare all the way to the bottom of the hill.
Sorry, no, that's not it at all. What you describe is a well-used way of calming nervous skiers. The detail I didn't mention in the clip is that I discovered this technique in fog so I couldn't determine the pitch of the slope. Rather than not being able to see down the mountain, which might be off putting, it was the lack of signals to the brain giving the pitch that created the illusion of flatness. I think most other have 'got' this.
With regard to other comments about safety; no, of course you can't do this on a busy slope. Look at my clip where I show a big empty piste and then pan down. That is what the skier would do. If you then set off at a moderate pace and look 2-3 turns ahead you will be perfectly safe. This is an exercise, not really a way to ski from the top of the mountain to the village in one go. Ski the same way as if you were in fog. Heighten your hearing, and your feel for the snow.
I really appreciate the comments to say that my film was well made. Ta.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Iski wrote:
Possibly it might be more helpful if skiday just presented his video of the technique as a clear visual aid for skiers wishing to tackle slopes within their capability, but which they find challenging.
I thought that was what I was doing - unless I misunderstand you.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skiday wrote:
Sorry, no, that's not it at all. What you describe is a well-used way of calming nervous skiers. The detail I didn't mention in the clip is that I discovered this technique in fog so I couldn't determine the pitch of the slope. Rather than not being able to see down the mountain, which might be off putting, it was the lack of signals to the brain giving the pitch that created the illusion of flatness. I think most other have 'got' this.
I understand that, just think it's way too complicated. I've had the experience of skiing in poor light a fairly steep slope with no problems, and then a couple of days later same slope in good visibility making me feel anxious so I understand the point.
I think it's far more effective to ask a nervous client to focus on something simple and positive (just imagine the next three or four turns you're going to make, maybe doing that with your eyes closed before you start off), than try to get them to 'tune-out' all their visual and physical stimuli which helps them form an opinion about terrain steepness. The former is easy to do, the latter much more difficult IMO. At a time when clients might already being stressed giving them something mentally difficult to do is not going to be very effective IMO.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
skiday wrote:
Iski wrote:
Possibly it might be more helpful if skiday just presented his video of the technique as a clear visual aid for skiers wishing to tackle slopes within their capability, but which they find challenging.
I thought that was what I was doing - unless I misunderstand you.
Yes you were. However, my quoted comment needs to be taken in the context of my whole response to little tiger, where I indicated that references to the Austrian system or your colleagues were not essential to what you were trying to do and perhaps led to some incorrect impressions being given.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The issue of the Austrian method was a throwaway comment and to press the point is I feel a side issue to the content of my film. But to clarify, the Tirolians I have worked for do always allow for the individual student, their abilities, their fears and so on, both in group and private lessons, but what we teach is to be only what we have been told to teach, that which comes from the central governing body (the Tiroler Schilehrerverband) and passed down in training sessions. It is coming up with new ideas and techniques of your own that is discouraged. The only exception being Ingrid Salvenmoser of Scheffau who is the only boss I have worked for ready to listen to new ideas (but even then, if she didn't like my idea, I wouldn't be allowed to use it) I never meant to suggest that in the first hour of a lesson this is done and in the second hour that is done and so on in a fixed and rigid manor, which is perhaps what some have taken as my meaning.
Anyway, back to the film. Will you be giving this a go? Perhaps when you find yourself in a bit of fog you will think of this and see what happens. That seems to be the case from some of the comments above. Perhaps this answers the question why some have skied better in fog than sunshine, but didn't know why.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skiday wrote:
Perhaps when you find yourself in a bit of fog you will think of this and see what happens.
Is it possible to simulate the sensory deprivation of poor light when skiing in good conditions?
In poor light conditions don't most skiers, especially nervous skiers, struggle more when in good light? That's certainly the case with my skiing and most, if not all, of the people I ski with.
skiday, I only brought up the issue of the Austrian method in response to rob@rar's comment that it was a very simple message. I think perhaps you and he are talking about two slightly different things (correct me either of you if I am wrong). He is talking about instructing a nervous skier and trying to get them to focus on just the next few turns, you are talking about a technique that can be used by a skier who wants to focus on applying their skills on a slope they find challenging.
I've already done the fog bit when on part of the Upper Dave Murray Downhill in Whistler for the first time. I was with a small group and instructor but they were ahead of me. As I couldn't see anything I just concentrated on the turns I was making until I got to part where they were waiting for me. That's why I could immediately see how I could apply your technique to other runs that I might find challenging. Actually, to back up what you are saying about skiing in fog, when I joined my group on that occasion they were talking to a couple who were asking for directions as they "weren't very experienced, had heard there was a black run in the area and wanted to avoid it". It must have boosted their confidence when my instructor explained that they had just skied down it!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skiday wrote:
Perhaps when you find yourself in a bit of fog you will think of this and see what happens. That seems to be the case from some of the comments above. Perhaps this answers the question why some have skied better in fog than sunshine, but didn't know why.
Skiday, here's an idea for a way to simulate fog, for those who are not so lucky to encounter it on their day at the slopes.
I think different ideas/explanations work with different people, and this one is worth trying - I shall do so. I also don't think that "tuning out" a lot of what's going on on the periphery is a problem - many beginners pay far too much attention to what's going on around them and especially imagining snowboarders about to crash into them from behind. It does them no good at all - few of us have the skills to react correctly and instantaneously to someone about to crash into us.
Focussing on the next few turns is what you do when following an instructor - and that's when most of us ski best. Just trust him/her not to ski over any cliffs and to lay down a line you are capable of following. You do forget the slope. On one ski course I did we took it in turns to follow close (a metre or two) behind a partner and tell them what was happening as they turned - watching their tracks. Apparently we all skied better when being the watcher than when being the watched, no doubt because we were on autopilot.
I can't quite imagine the feeling described in the video but it might be useful in the toolbox - thanks for posting it, skiday.
I also hate skiing in fog - but I don't really call it fog if I can see three turns ahead.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Skiing in fog is how I discovered the technique, but you don't need it. As for herring up the goggles - I assume that's 'avin' a larf' .
I don't think I'm the first person to experience this effect. Those of you who have talked about skiing in fog and following the instructor, guide or friend have found the same effect. It's just that, to my knowledge, as no one has put it in these terms before, and I feel that with this explanation you can replicate it at will (as I do) without the fog or guide, and teach it to others.
Andrew
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar wrote:
skiday wrote:
Perhaps when you find yourself in a bit of fog you will think of this and see what happens.
Is it possible to simulate the sensory deprivation of poor light when skiing in good conditions?
In poor light conditions don't most skiers, especially nervous skiers, struggle more when in good light? That's certainly the case with my skiing and most, if not all, of the people I ski with.
There is a big difference between fog and poor light. Most people will encounter fog. No one should ski in poor light as it can be avoided. i.e don't go into a mountain hostelry and come out in the dark to ski to the village. Your second sentence is unclear as I think you meant to say than where you say more. Nervous skiers should not ski in poor light, same for us all, that is why I have come up with a method, which will work in good light with no fog.
I am saying that everyone should try this method in good conditions. Instructors and advanced only should also try this in fog (you can't really not try it) - understand the theory as you do it - teach in good light.
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skiday, sorry mate, I'm just not following you. When you are working with a client what exactly do you ask them to do? From the video in the opening post it seems that you say "look no further than about 20 feet, or two turns, in front of you and try to block out all the detail such as trees and buildings ... just concentrate on the empty piste (or the instructor) in front of you". Is that right? In what way is that different from my suggestion of focusing (or even visualising) the next half dozen turns?
What would your client do different with your suggestion that my client would do different with my suggestion? I'm genuinely confused about this?
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
skiday wrote:
No one should ski in poor light as it can be avoided. i.e don't go into a mountain hostelry and come out in the dark to ski to the village. Your second sentence is unclear as I think you meant to say than where you say more. Nervous skiers should not ski in poor light, same for us all,.
I call BS on you
Poor light = flat light, not skiing after dark. I can't believe a seasoned instructor would interpret it this way.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Those first shots demonstrate clearly what I found helped with steep slopes. I skied my first respectable blue in fresh deep unbashed snow, I found then what I still find now that, if you are in deep snow, the slopes seem shallower. I think because in deep snow your ski's 'sit' flatter in the snow. Look at those first shots the tips of the ski's are lifted and the tails are deep in the snow depth, the ski is therefore flatter and I find the slope feels less steep because of it. With respect to the fog effect, I'm not convinced. I see the argument, but I have refused to ski a red I hadn't skied before in very dense fog precisely for the reason that I couldn't see down it and I wanted to see what was coming up.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I like the clip and we are going to give it a try.
I believe its good to "work" the brain when I ski, my body relaxes more.
Regarding whether its dangerous, common sense applies.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Megamum wrote:
... if you are in deep snow, the slopes seem shallower. I think because in deep snow your ski's 'sit' flatter in the snow.
If you are in the snow rather than on the snow there is much more resistance to moving forwards. For any given grade of terrain you will ski much slower in deep snow than on top of a firm base because your boots and legs have to force their way through the snow. Compare walking along side a paddling pool to wading through the middle of one.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
if you are in deep snow, the slopes seem shallower.
Absolutely - because you go a lot slower. You need a decent "red" sort of gradient to get some turns in on powder. I think what the OP is saying is that you "play a trick" on yourself by imagining that the slope is flat and you're being pushed along. That might work for some, not for others; depends on the way your mind works, I guess.
The argument about "light" is a bit of a non sequitor, perhaps. And as we've discovered in other threads there's poor vis and poor vis. One man's terrible fog is another man's light mist. In really bad vis you don't need to imagine that the slope is flat - you have no perception of steep, or flat, or up or down. It's like skiing with your eyes closed which is a useful exercise but something rather different to what's being suggested in the video, I think.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
pam w, Another interesting situation to contrast with the fog argument is skiing in flat light, then your brain is well and truly tricked and the slope vanishes. Mind you I'm not convinced that it makes much psycological difference to skiing the slope it just makes it harder.
I must admit that I do already use the OP's technique when cycling up a hill. I find if stop looking at the slope and start looking at the near ground (country lanes where you know you won't hit someone by doing so) it 'seems' easier to cycle up the slope.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum, I'm sure some of the Frenchmen cycling up mountain passes are just looking at the next ten metres - it often looks that way, as you pass them. I must try that myself next time I'm on an off-road hill on my bike. I don't think I'll try it on a real road.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
If you are in deep snow the slope IS shallower - well effectively anyway as the tails sink & the tips rise so the angle of the skis is less than the actual slope.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spyderjon, Grrrr...I hate folks that can say in two lines what I wanted to say, except when I do it, it takes half the page.
spyderjon, yup. My initial experience of skiing on steep snow was on hardish pack, so I was caught out by that in powder until I latched on to what was happening.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 24-11-10 1:57; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skiday wrote:
Skiing in fog is how I discovered the technique, but you don't need it. As for herring up the goggles - I assume that's 'avin' a larf' .
Andrew
Yes, Andrew, it was.
I'm a big fan of innovation, and I respect you for pursuing it. Imagery is a powerful tool in skiing, in all sports for that matter, and this would simply be another means of employing it. Well done.
Seems to me that people are over analysing this. What skiday is proposing is really just taking advantage of an optical illusion, similar to the feeling you get when sat in a stationary train, and a train on the next platform starts moving, then deliberately trying to evoke that illusion.
It has to be worth a try.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w wrote:
In really bad vis you don't need to imagine that the slope is flat - you have no perception of steep, or flat, or up or down. It's like skiing with your eyes closed which is a useful exercise but something rather different to what's being suggested in the video, I think.
No it’s not different, it's exactly that - you've got it!
If someone says 'ski with your eyes closed' as an exercise you would experience the same thing, I just don't think asking a student to ski totally blind is such a good idea myself. I have met a lot of people who teach exercises because they have been taught to do them and have found them useful, but haven't explained the theory behind it (or don't perhaps understand the theory as it was not explained to them). If you don't understand the theory, how will you be able to replicate the same sensation with your eyes open? What I have tried to do is find a way to explain what's going on in your head when you do it. I have always believed that if you can explain WHY you're doing something and how it works to improve you, it will be achieved quicker and better.
Incidentally all, after 15 winters I now no longer go all season, just one or two weeks teaching as a holiday.
P.S. Flat light is flat light, poor light is low light, in my book. Flat light is perhaps good for this exercise, but not necessary.
Love, peace and deep snow to all
After all it is free
After all it is free
As a nervous skier (the type that is literally paralysed with fear and has on occassion been known to cry!), things that have worked for me previously is being given a few moments to collect myself, listening to music via an mp3 player, and on no account must anyone try and talk me into doing something I dont think I can do!
I have skied better on slopes I am familar with in the fog, but would not really want to attempt an unknown slope in the fog.
I would like to think this technique will help and I will certainly try it, but to be honest in that moment when I am gripped by fear, the only thing that works is turning the music up, and trying to copy someone elses turns, I have been known to wait until an instructor passes by with thgeir group and follow where they are skiing.
I like the idea of only looking a few turns ahead as i think this sounds a little less complicated, and when i am scared my brain doesn't work very well.
I will try it out in a few weeks time and let you know
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I remember thinking of a steep slope as a flat slope at an angle about 30 years ago. It just requires a little more mind power to do it while looking ahead and using our peripheral vision.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Fizz
I am interested in helping people like yourself (by the way, are you male or female?) To this end I bought a book about 'Thought Field Therapy' after hearing good things about it. It does sound like you have a true phobia (bathmophobia) Unfortunately I haven't been able to try it and neither I, nor my wife, have any phobias to try it on. If you google it and look on YouTube you will find lots of info on it. Apparently you don't have to believe in it for it to work. Yeah, it's a bit 'hippie wierdy beardy' to some, but perhaps it might pay to try an alternative solution if the normal solutions don't work. Please pm me later if you do try it. I hope to find people like you this winter to try it out.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I think I'm channeling Hurtle
