 Poster: A snowHead
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How do you tell someone their child is not as good as they think he is?
Say a 7 year old kid who’s been skiing for 2 weeks and is in a class doing mainly blues and some easy reds. He is of about average ability for the class.
After the class he goes off skiing with mummy and daddy and somehow gets down a few steep reds and maybe even a black. He tells mummy and daddy he’s bored in class “coz they go too slow and it's boring”.
Next day mummy comes up to me and tells me he should be moved to a higher standard class.
What do you say to mummy and daddy
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In my experience of teaching (which is mainly classroom based) I always found the honest answer the best.
Tell the student that they are the perfect level for the class and that the higher class is too hard for them.
Tell the parents that you use suitable terrain for the child's level and that they have paid for the child to learn safely and effectively.
Offer a gentle reminder that you are a trained and qualified PROFESSIONAL and know what you are doing.
(of course if you know of a particular run which the kids had done and in your opinion shouldn't have, say something like 'I know that little Bobby Bobbins could ski down the death-run but it is too dangerous to take the risk as he wouldn't be able to ski it in 100% control and then would slide to a crashing and most horrifying death into some poor family that have decided that their little Billy Brown was good enough to ski there....  )
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 20-11-10 9:23; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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thefatcontroller, that is just wrong. You say what you need to say. Not what they want to hear.... "Oh yeah your kid is just plain wonderful and the next Maier... what's that?....you think he has racing potential... ok then, let's put him in the race class then....oh sorry.. your kid has 2 broken legs...."
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Wayne, push the safety argument - uncontrolled speed will kill their little darling, just because he can hurtle fearlessly down the fall line doesn't mean he can ski, bit more technique will mean he comes back in one piece etc etc. Frighten them. Maybe carry some pictures of hideous injuries to reinforce the point. 
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flangesax, If they are endangering their kid then intervene but if its just a case of they think their kid is actually better than he or she is, then most parents do. Leave them in peace. 
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Part of the purpose of lessons is practising techniques to the point where they become second nature. You have to start these techniques on slopes where you feel comfortable and in control e.g. you learn to carve on a blue slope, even though you can possibly get down a much steeper slope. I would have thought any competent parent would recognise this and realise that you are there to act as an instructor and not a ski-guide.
The fact that the kid is bored needs to be thought through though. Lessons can be fun even if you're not skiing fast. My experience of watching kids lessons is that they don't necessarily know what they are meant to be doing and while the first one down that follows the instructor may do as they are told and do what the instructor does, the ones nearer the back look like they have not been paying attention and do know what drill they are meant to be practising. The instructor should maybe make that kid that is bored, stand next to him and go first or maybe the instructor should rethink how to introduce some "fun" elements into the drills.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
if its just a case of they think their kid is actually better than he or she is, then most parents do. Leave them in peace.
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...i'm sorry that is just a philosphy I can't live up to!... probably the bitter and twisted ex-teacher in me!
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Wayne, suggest he's a star and needs private lessons for remainder of week
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
What they want to hear. You are there to deliver their holiday not offer psychotherapy  |
I tend to go along with this method, unless the new instrcutor feels they will hold back the progress of people already in the class
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"He's certainly in the top half of the class. We're working on techniques which will make them much safer on the steep terrain they would like to ski. I'll give them a bit of a blast on a steepish but safe piste during the next lesson".
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You know it makes sense.
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What they want to hear. You are there to deliver their holiday not offer psychotherapy
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No, he's there to give their kid appropriate ski tuition - that's what he offers and they've paid for. If they want a babysitting service they need to go elsewhere.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| No, he's there to give their kid appropriate ski tuition - that's what he offers and they've paid for. If they want a babysitting service they need to go elsewhere. |
Sort of.
"Some" parents understand that learning to ski is the same the same as learning any other skill. There is a learning curve and as you move along the curve the ability to do something changes from just being able to accomplish to be able to "do".
"Other" parents do (IM humble O) pander to the wants of petulant children too much.
"Other" parents do sometime want to get away have a blast without the kids holding them up
"Other" parents see a lesson as provided service with a buyable product at the end.
“other”….. well you get the idea. Everyone is different
Normally, as it's just a holiday, I allow the kid to move classes, if it's not going to cause any problems with SEL of the people already in the class
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think I would expect an instructor to be honest with me. As a parent I think I might be ameanable to a explanation which went something along the lines of: Explaining to them that you would expect them to give the kids some fun outside of lesson time and it certainly gives their child a chance to experiment with what you are teach them, but that you select your lesson environment to provide a chance to teach the kids the solid foundation skills that they need in order to ski the steeper stuff. I wonder if you could find examples of even how advanced skiers might select safe terrain to consolidate new skills and then explain how the work you are doing will allow junior to have safer fun with his parents at other times.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I agree wholeheartedly with little tiger, flangesax, Lizzard, Ray Zorro, laundryman, and Megamum, but I also think thefatcontroller has a fair point. The parents are paying your wages, and often enough they're not as clueless as they might lead you to believe. When group classes are split on technical ability level there is the inherent problem that different confidence levels exist within the group. If little Jonny can make his way down a red run in a huge snowplough, and won't hold up the red group, then send him on his way. We've got to keep young dudes like Jonny interested in snowsport, right?
RORIE'S DISCLAIMER: Please ignore the previous statement if little Jonny is a danger to himself and others (It's always tricky with hypotheticals)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think, while TO reps and chalet staff are there to 'pander' to guests wishes, as a qualified professional in a technical field, an instructor has a greater responsibility to tell the truth within the domain of his expertise. However the expert field in question is not parenting skills and so, having simply told the truth, the rest is up to the parents to 'get' for themselves.
That said, telling the truth can be done with varying levels of tact with laundryman demonstrating above, clear aptitude for running a ski school. So while telling them the truth may be the limit of your responsibility, it is the skill in delivering the truth that determines how it is received and consequently how easy a life you get.
I hate it when I feel people are patronising or disregarding me as a 'deluded/clueless parent' as I'm always on a mission to understand better, in order to better help my child. So I try to present myself as open to advice and information good or bad. Sometimes circumstances conspire though to make U look like U don't have a blimmin' clue.
The classic example came as Gregory reached 2-3 star skiing level, about age 7/8 maybe. Having got his 'Snowflake', the next Winter he skipped 1 star to scrape his 2 star award by the slimmest of margins. So, went back the following year enthusiastic to do his 3 star but was quickly relegated to a lower group where he accepted, a little begrudgingly, that it would be good to consolidate his 2 star skills. This he did and came out with a top notch 2 star award. So far, so good.
Now, a year later, he confidently rolled up for the 3star group but at the end of the day was relegated again - this, he did not exactly take well. In fact the instructor was quite taken aback "In France ze children do not speak to adults like zis" 
Another day on and we're told he may have to go down another group! (The instructor had learnt his lesson though and hadn't mentioned it to Gregory this time) I try to explain his previous badge/certificate and the sort of runs he's skied comfortably in the past but clearly I'm being seen as one of 'those' parents.
So, G and I go off for a 1 to 1 session for the afternoon while I try to figure out what's wrong. Not good! We have a plan to do 1 red as a warm up followed by 1 black - stuff he'd have done without blinking the previous year. We take so long on the Red that the lifts close when we're half way down the black. A piste patroller arrives, (literally) picks him up with the words "maybe 'e is not so good to be 'ere" and carries him off to a red run. I'm naturally quite embarrassed and a bit flumoxed about what's gone wrong.
That night, Gregory complains of itchy feet and I see, his soles are bright red. Durr! His boots are too loose! French hire shop: I had tried to tell them what we needed but I'm just 'one of those parents' so not worth listening to 
We get him smaller boots and what d'ya know, Gregory's OK to stay in the class he's in. A couple of days later, on the last day, the instructor calls me over in a bar, "Ah today, Gregory, I don't know what 'appen"
"OH dear, what now?" I think.
"We go to make ze test on ze red slope and 'e make a parallel on ze steep red. I make 'im 3 star but not just 3 star 'e is like a good 3 star, you know?"
Well no, actually, I didn't know but as a parent, U do try to keep hoping 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The only problem I’ve ever had with giving out the awards at the end of the week was with one guy (adult) as I had given his wife 1 grade higher - he couldn't understand that speed didn't = skill.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| "He's certainly in the top half of the class. We're working on techniques which will make them much safer on the steep terrain they would like to ski. I'll give them a bit of a blast on a steepish but safe piste during the next lesson". |
Brilliant.
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| Quote: |
one guy (adult) as I had given his wife 1 grade higher - he couldn't understand that speed didn't = skill.
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we met a beginner couple like that on holiday once. She listened carefully to the instructor, did as she was told, and turned carefully on the piste. He invariably hurtled across to the soft stuff at the side, fell over, had to climb back to the piste then repeat the trick. He was very grumbly when we skied with them for an hour towards the end of the holiday. She was thrilled with her careful progress, he was used to being top dog and had his nose out of joint. We taught the rudiments of windsurfing to friends who surfed - he much better than her. She got on much better with the windsurfing (she listened... and he thought he already knew.) and he got quite sulky about it and wouldn't do it any more.
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pam w, that'd be men then.
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pam w,Lizzard, I shared a group lesson with one guy... he kept making about 2-3 'turns' in the bumps then splat - yardsale... Everytime the instructor tried to exlain to him what was happening he came back with 'I was Ok until ..., you looked at the wrong time'... Very sweet german instructor and I did have a great time doing at each other during that lesson!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I find that having lessons with easiski leaves you with no misapprehensions about how you are doing. A couple of years ago I shared a week's lessons with my daughter with her. At the end of the week easiski declared that "of course Natalie would have progressed more had I not been there to slow her down" 
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I find that having lessons with easiski leaves you with no misapprehensions about how you are doing.
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How true.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wayne, No you've got to stick to your principles here. If he's not good enough then he stays where he is.
That said, I think you should always take the time to sit down and discuss it with the parents, help them feel involved and consulted about the issue. I would think that will deal with the vast majority of these situations.
As for those that won't listen to you, let them do as they please with another instructor. They are probably the type who will drag said kid around whatever profession they are currently involved with, be it sports coaches, medics, teachers etc until they find one who will tell them what they want to hear?
Another vote from me for instructors who have the ability to communicate in an honest, blunt, but friendly manner and not blow smoke up your a** about how good you are not!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wayne, I tend to just be honest and say I'm not comfortable putting them in the next group (or I've put them in the group below) because their ability level means they'll be safer and/or more appropriately challenged in that group. They tend to ignore me, and demand what they want anyway. We then swap their kids back to the correct group after leaving lineup, or occasionally just suffer. Some parents just won't accept your opinion, and unfortunately they're paying.
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If little Jonny can make his way down a red run in a huge snowplough, and won't hold up the red group, then send him on his way. We've got to keep young dudes like Jonny interested in snowsport, right?
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You're not going to think that when he's still doing the same thing as a whacking great 18-year-old and has just wiped you out and broken your leg for you.
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You know it makes sense.
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If it compromises the safety of the child or the group that the parent wants to put them in to the decision is clear: I wouldn't do it. That must be explained as clearly and tactfully as possible to the parent.
If it compromises the enjoyment of the child or the group above I would try to take a balanced decision. If the kids in the group above are going to be held back significantly I would try to explain to the parents that the group above are skiing at a much higher level and their child would not be able to cope, and might suffer in his confidence and enjoyment of the lessons and it will significantly affect his development ("he won't be skiing, he'll be surviving. That's really bad if you want to improve your skiing").
If the child will have his technical development impeded by being promoted but it wouldn't affect the rest of the group I'd be happy to have him moved up. If parents want to be stupid and ignore professional advice they are welcome to do that, provided the more important aspects of staying safe and having fun aren't compromised.
The key to all this is how these issues are discussed with the parents. As with all forms of education it works best when teachers and parents work together, which places a certain responsibility on parents to respect the professional judgement of the teacher, and the teacher to respect the wishes of the parents. The challenge is that this process might have to be conducted in 5 minutes between lessons, when you have 10 sets of parents wanting to ask questions about their child they are collecting off you, and 10 sets of parents wanting to give you info about their child that you are just about to teach.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As paying punter and father of 3 boys (2 old enough to ski) and veteran of many ski school pick ups and drop offs I feel able to comment!
Our eldest son skied an awful lot for a 5 year old from Liverpool and had various badges when he went to ESF at Peisey with Esprit and was placed in a group below his previous standard (but still with kids much older/bigger/stronger).
I got the huff and went to the ski school to ask. Their response was along the lines of 'your on holiday- what's the fuss' - you know what- they were right!
Ben has skied loads- he enjoys it- it is friendly and fun to be in ski school. Miles under his legs are what he needs- it really does not matter a dam what level group he is in as long as it is near enough. The worst would be for him to be in a group that is too old/strong/fast as this would destroy his confidence. What a sad 'touch line dad ' I was- but only for about 5minutes.
As to the question from Wayne- the question as put is about a child of average ability for the class- so in Waynes case the child is bang in the right group. The response will obviously have to depend on the type of parent and I think it is really unlikley that you will know what the parent expects- perhaps unless you ask them.
Apparently a generic technique about peoples worries/concerns goes like this; (ICE- idea, concerns, expectations) what do they think (they think son should be in a higher group) but that leaves the remainder- what are they actually worried about? (boredom- well you an counter with actually about right and in a faster group other problems., falling, demotivated, lost etc) expectations (they want him moved up???) but no right level so faster with family perhaps or maybe a private lesson?
I think the point about trying as far as possible to meet parents is a good one really but obviously with some limits!
However- perhaps your group is boring? Maybe too big, maybe being held up by a child who shouldn't be in it? Maybe you are not a very engaging instructor and don't get on with kids so well??? If lots of parents / children make the same point - have a look at yourself! Maybe you are the issue and not them. I have certinly found different instructors personalities to be the crucial element as far as kids skiing goes. Or maybe it is isolated cranky parents.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have certinly found different instructors personalities to be the crucial element as far as kids skiing goes.
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True. I watch groups quite a bit, as I ski around. It's impressive how often an instructor with 10 or 12 kids seems to be keeping them all happy and constructively occupied. It must be exhausting. One very cross kid I passed, lagging well behind the group, shouting "j'en ai marre" (a French phrase I'd just learnt and was thrilled to hear - meant he was very fed up with it all). He was a little bit tubby, very red in the face, really struggling. He wasn't a littlie - about 10, I'd say. I can imagine that he wouldn't have been happy going back to ski school the next day. How much nicer to be one of the stronger ones in the class. If I could pick an ideal class position for one of my grandchildren, I'd say about 3rd quickest - so they feel really pleased with themselves, but have someone to try to beat, who's better than them!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Or, it might just be that the kid would rather be with his parents, so he's saying "ski school's boring, i'd rather ski with you, look I even ski better with you".......
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
What do you say to mummy and daddy
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Junior would be much better suited to snowboarding
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret,
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I get sometimes with our Junior ski club at Gosling. Usually talk aboutthe importance of learning the techniques properly and that there are some more things that are needed before moving up; and of course offer a private lesson if they want their "little darling" to progress more quickly!
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To chuck something else into the mix
I am in charge of up to 20 instructors for each 2 hour session.
Yep, up to 200 clients per session 4 classes per day
Some groups holiday groups consist of up to 40 or 50 people and they all have to be in a class at the same time in whatever grade they are.
Some people have booked private lessons at the same time as other members of their party who are in group lessons
Some group classes start on Sun, some on Mon
Trentino regulations state the max numbers per class
I love my Excel drag and drop 
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Trentino regulations state the max numbers per class
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what are those?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have been in the parents' position, although I was right (but I would say that!). We enrolled our son in a set of lessons at Glenshee; one of the questions asked was whether he was capable of using all the lifts without any problem - anyone who has skied there knows that the take-off on some of the drags will lift a grown man off the ground, so imagine a slight 8 year old. I answered the question truthfully - that he occasionally had difficulties with *some* of the lifts (but was confident on all the blues and reds); they put him in a class of complete beginners on the nursery slope; he was bored and uncooperative and almost crying with frustration as he told me about this when I collected him at lunchtime so there followed some discussion between me and the ski school. Eventually they agreed to move him to a more advanced class, in which he proved to be one of the stronger skiers. I actually felt he should have been two classes up, but felt that he would still be learning.
Now, the instructor who had him on the first morning was not happy because he had not seen the boy demonstrating any of the skills I was claiming, but he had been embarrassed to be put in that class with mainly much younger children, so was miserable - I don't suppose the heavy rain helped his mood either! I was assured by the ski school that the original assessment of his abilities (based on a statement about using buttons and t-bars) was right and I was being a pushy parent - but my judgement was based on the extensive feedback from the instructors at the ski school the previous 2 winters in Canada, where he had had 9 full days (am+pm) each time, and was borne out in practice.
So, I think the answer is that the instructors do normally see what is going on, but you need to understand why the parent thinks the classification is wrong - perhaps they really do know something the instructor has not seen?
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Wayne, if there are instructors who regularly get 'boring' feedback what do you do?
It is important for kids to be just a little pushed- so they feel they achive. It has to be only just out of reach- and then be achievable. Getting that right is an art in it self and for a group must be hard- but with skiing I find you can mix it up- speed, jumps, bumps etc and children can to an extent edit themselves- faster slower, higher etc. They do need a happy, unhungover- pleasedtobeskiingwith kids type though. I can imagine that some instructors (most) might not really want 12 would be SBSs (standard British Skiers) in their group and might really rather have 8 foxy postgraduate students from Malmo (who wouldn't- oh the memories and pain)
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FAQ
Worst is when they are yellingat the kid /partner/friend they have over terrained... Or giving instructions on the lift - and they can barely disembark safely themselves... 
