 Poster: A snowHead
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PSIA, BASI (other methods of instruction are available) etc.
OK, I'm baffled, I'm outside the instructor loop, but keep seeing references to the fact that the various instructing schools find it difficult to exist in the same bed. The question is why? Surely there is one fairly standard way of getting down a hill on a modern set of skis? Also, why is BASI so important in the UK, when the majority of English punters on holiday must get taught by French/Austrian/Swiss/Italian etc. teachers - do they all subscribe to the BASI viewpoint or other methods. Why are the differences sufficient to cause consternation when surely the aim of all is to get folks down the hill in the best fashion possible on a set of skis? Please explain in terms that 'punters' will understand.
Edit: I have changed the heading as I don't mean 'ski school' as in Pro Neige, Arc Adventures etc. I thought it was a 'method' of instruction (as Monstessouri as a method of nursery school education) - this is clearly also inaccurate when I read below
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 15-10-10 13:46; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, Oooh, you little troll 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well if you wanted to teach a child mathematics the same would tend to apply... you add 2+2 and get 4 usually... but think about all the ways you can teach that stuff... from rote chanting of times tables on through cuisinaire rods etc etc.... Ditto with teaching skiing... mostly the difference is in how the journey should be taken and the route to follow not the destination -bar a few style issues and the fact that HH thinks everyone looks bad except his students and the WC guys (he always seems to recognise his technique in the winners and they lose it when they stop winning). Canadian instructors like to look like hunch backs and hop up and down a lot, their racers complain that doing CSIA exams ruins their times, PSIA like pivoting a lot, APSI guys like retraction and tend to lose snow contact a lot on short turns etc etc...
PSIA will teach you flattish skis, face down the fall line, do nothing other than flatten the downhill ski, Austrians will teach you a snow plow and traverse and stem christie and heaps of pole drills...
Each one thinks they know best and that everyone else is wrong (especially Harald Harb). The best instructors try it all and do what they need to do rather than parrot some system, funnily enough many of the best guys are on very similar wavelengths and not on some BASI/PSIA 'system'.
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Very little difference between the systems from what I can see, although the language used to describe skiing and the journey that new skiers take does seem to vary a bit. I don't believe that the different systems do find it difficult to exist in the same bed, there's a fair amount of collaboration between the professional bodies to evidence harmonious working relationships (at least of ski-related matters). You do get the the odd tongue-in-cheek comment from people who hold qualifications from one system or another, but generally they are based on a bit of good natured ribbing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, Me? 
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I suspect Rob's largely right and also little tiger. A good instructor is one who has the skills - analytical, technical and communication regardless of what regime they come from. Systems are used as "trade protection" barriers however in a very real way it seems and it baffles me the complexity and diversity of requirements e.g. BASI seems to have a module for everything while CSIA is very streamlined and hence "cheap" and focused on teaching.
I have a fundamental objection to a concept that time in the gates should be the ultimate determinent of whether someone is the highest grade of instructor.
Were Shankley and Paisley (or even and I may have to wash my mouth out Ferguson) the best footballers ever to play the game?
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| Quote: |
PSIA, BASI (other ski schools are available) etc
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Megamum, - call me a Pedant... BASI, PSIA are not ski schools. They are the training and licensing bodies for ski instructors. BASI has a high profile here because it's the British organisation that does this.
Most of these organisations are part of an international body (ISIA) - which mandates standards for all instructors. As long as you instructor has an ISIA certified level (BASI L3 and above), you can be sure that they have been trained and assesed to an internationally agreed standard.
Hope that helps
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| fatbob wrote: |
| e.g. BASI seems to have a module for everything while CSIA is very streamlined and hence "cheap" and focused on teaching. |
Consequently BASI's L3 qualification meets the ISIA standard, whereas CSIA's L3 qualification doesn't. I heard that BASI might well offer some of it's modules to CSIA for any of their members who want to get the ISIA stamp.
| Quote: |
I have a fundamental objection to a concept that time in the gates should be the ultimate determinent of whether someone is the highest grade of instructor.
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I don't think it is the ultimate determinent. It is one the assessments required to pass the L4 qualification (along with mountain safety/navigation, advanced teaching and advanced technical performance). Broadly speaking the BASI L4 qualification is only required if you want to teach full time in France, for everywhere else the L3 qualification is appropriate and that does not include a speed test.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It is quite interesting to watch Interski (ski instructor synchronised swimming) and look at the subtle differences between all the nations. IMO the BASI instructors looked a bit gash compared to a few of the other nations but it could be they didn't put the effort in.
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It is quite interesting to watch Interski (ski instructor synchronised swimming) and look at the subtle differences between all the nations. IMO the BASI instructors looked a bit gash compared to a few of the other nations but it could be they didn't put the effort in.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Though I will say that I didn't perceive that without your posting (I wonder how many other 'punter's realise that too) so thank you for putting that down. |
 how long have you have been on sH?? Did you really think that BASI was a ski school? And I should think the vast majority of 'punters' (hate that word) have never heard of BASI, CASI, PASI, ASI, whatever....
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| Megamum wrote: |
| So is it ISIA membership/qualification that lets an instructor teach anywhere or does each country have its own requirements? |
It varies a great deal from country to country, and often region to region, canton to canton.
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You know it makes sense.
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cathy, No, not a 'ski school' in that way - I thought it was a method (call it 'school') of instruction rather than some sort of organisation that covered the instructors themselves. I've edited the OP
And if all they are is an association or membership of ski instructors rather than a education method, then it is even harder to see why differences exist.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, it is more a question of marketplace, PSIA and CSIA instructors are trained within ski schools in mountain environments and take short exams... most brits dont live/work near a ski resort so need to combine training and exams.. i personally find basi courses good value but they tend to attract criticism from those who have never taken a BASI course who tend to say they are expensive and not focused on teaching.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I don't think it is the ultimate determinent. It is one the assessments required to pass the L4 qualification (along with mountain safety/navigation, advanced teaching and advanced technical performance). |
Yeh I know but it does seem the be the hardest hurdle to get over for people who are in are already skiing at the highest "instructor" technical level.
I find the CSIA ISIA blacklisting fairly politically interesting as well. They are a major alpine nation yet the ROW presumes to tell them that they aren't up to scratch. I can see that flatland BASI has an uphill battle to prove itself worthy and thus I understand entirely the tendency toward overkill on courses ( and no doubt it is not a bad thing to be ensuring standards across the spectrum) but something in the failure to grant equivalence smacks of political rather than technical merits. I can totally understand that there may well be stubbornness on the part of the Canucks too involved.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Yeh I know but it does seem the be the hardest hurdle to get over for people who are in are already skiing at the highest "instructor" technical level. |
The technical assessment is equally hard IMO, bumps in particular. And the advanced teaching assessment is no pushover (when I did my L3 teaching assessment there was a group of 10 candidates doing the L4 teach. All of them failed. It's a tough course. I thought the L3 teach was a tough course, so I dread to think what the L4 teach will be like.
| Quote: |
| I find the CSIA ISIA blacklisting fairly politically interesting as well. |
Blacklisting? I don't see that's the case. The ISIA sets the criteria, it's up to the various national bodies to decide if they want to meet them or not. Simples.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, your comments re CSIA are completely off beam... ISIA didnt blacklist anyone the north americans decided that the ISIA stamp wasnt worth it for their members as they dont export instructors as for instance BASI does. Their members dont need to have off piste security, second language, second discipline and require coaching courses for instructors for their marketplace. As rob mentions there is talk of basi doing conversion courses for CSIA members who wish to work outside canada and get the ISIA stamp.. seems a logical way to go.
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rob@rar, Am I right in thinking that CSIA 3 did have the ISIA stamp sometime previously? So did they downgrade their level or did ISIA raise the height?
IIRC its something to do with mountain safety modules etc and we've discussed somewhere before how high level Canadian instructors would naturally have lots of experience in variable terrain due to the nature of resort skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| rob@rar, Am I right in thinking that CSIA 3 did have the ISIA stamp sometime previously? So did they downgrade their level or did ISIA raise the height? |
I'm not sure about that, but might be true.
From what I can see the CSIA don't think the ISIA stamp is a useful thing for their members to have, so no need to satisfy the criteria. I don't think it is anything to do with whether their members are good skiers or good instructors, just what is required to work professionally. Whether CSIA qualified instructors have lots of experience of skiing variable terrain (don't all instructors have experience of this?) I think is irrelevant.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| fatbob, your comments re CSIA are completely off beam... ISIA didnt blacklist anyone the north americans decided that the ISIA stamp wasnt worth it for their members as they dont export instructors as for instance BASI does. Their members dont need to have off piste security, second language, second discipline and require coaching courses for instructors for their marketplace. As rob mentions there is talk of basi doing conversion courses for CSIA members who wish to work outside canada and get the ISIA stamp.. seems a logical way to go. |
I know blacklisting is the wrong term, but it is commercially advantageous as above to BASI and I presume has put in a long term deterrent to Brits to considering the Canadian route as a viable way to become a global instructor. I don't want to knock BASI as you and Rob and almost every other L2+ BASI instructor I've ever met have been great skiers and instructors but it feels a bit disingenuous to claim that different national bodies are all one big happy family.
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fatbob,
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I have a fundamental objection to a concept that time in the gates should be the ultimate determinent of whether someone is the highest grade of instructor.
Were Shankley and Paisley (or even and I may have to wash my mouth out Ferguson) the best footballers ever to play the game?
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This issue certainly affected me. I chose not to attempt ISTD (BASI 1 as it was then) - because there was no chance (IMV) for me to pass the Eurotest. But I won't (ever) pretend that I ski at ISTD level. What I do know is that the standard of ISTDs today is very high, and every one I've met makes a better skier and instructor than I do.
There is an argument that you don't need be an excellent skier to be an instructor/coach, but what you do need to have done (like Shankley and Paisley) - is to have put the required hours in. The Speed Test doesn't enable this - but the process of getting to the Speed Test does require you to do so.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| ... but it feels a bit disingenuous to claim that different national bodies are all one big happy family. |
Equally I think it is wrong to suggest that there is any disharmony between the national bodies, they are all just getting on with what they do and occasionally work together on specific projects. They also join together at Interski to discuss mutual interests, and (mostly) work together under the guise of ISIA. I know a few of the guys who have been chairmen of BASI and none of them have ever said they have a problem with other national bodies.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, Yep. I'd agree that's fair also. After all my only skin in the game is the thought that if I did any system it would be CSIA to be able to complete as much as possible in a couple of winters in the same resort (thus minimising incidental cost and hassle of travel/accomodation and maximising familiarity with terrain etc) and really I'm only making trouble as a Friday afternoon distraction session.
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fatbob, I think if you look closely enough at any kind of national system and compare them with other countries you will find differences. But these will mostly be because of context, culture or tradition rather than subterfuge. For the majority of CSIA instructors there is no need to have an ISIA stamp, so why jump over some extra hurdles? But for non-Canadians in particular I think it's worth giving pause for thought before you start on a particular qualification system to consider how you will want to use that qualification in 5 or 10 years time. It might be that something which seems at the outset to be a sensible money/time-saving route becomes a bit of a burden later because it doesn't provide the teaching opportunities you want, or it too much hassle to keep up to date.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, BASI has very little power within ISIA, and doesnt have the ability to commercially shut out or "blacklist" other nations but they do have a lot of influence through the strong ties to the Canadians & Aussies & Kiwis in particular and other english speaking governing bodies..
ISIA implemented a new set of rules and training criteria for its recognised minimum international rating and the canada decided not to implement the criteria for their top level certification and their members lost the ISIA stamp. The PSIA never had it. had nothing to do with BASI....
ISIA power (votes) is decided by the number of stamps (roughly the number of nationally qualified instructors) in each association. the italians, austrians and french have the most by a long margin...
why is it a deterrent to Brits like you who want a Canadian qualification? you want a short cheap qualification that works in one territory get a CSIA... and who ever said the few dozen national bodies are a happy family far from it... they collaborate but mountain countries and flatlanders will always have their different viewpoints and arguments are rife.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, Agree with you too, I think the ISIA point is totally separate from BASI (and I have no real understanding of other systems). Its baffling that the Canucks don't offer their own upgrade though given the preponderence of youg Brits (and Aussies/Kiwis etc) swelling their coffers on gap courses, some of whom just might want to make a career of it.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Very little difference between the systems from what I can see, although the language used to describe skiing and the journey that new skiers take does seem to vary a bit. I don't believe that the different systems do find it difficult to exist in the same bed, there's a fair amount of collaboration between the professional bodies to evidence harmonious working relationships (at least of ski-related matters). You do get the the odd tongue-in-cheek comment from people who hold qualifications from one system or another, but generally they are based on a bit of good natured ribbing. |
Spot on IMHO.
| Megamum wrote: |
| Also, why is BASI so important in the UK, when the majority of English punters on holiday must get taught by French/Austrian/Swiss/Italian etc. teachers |
BASI are the established professional association for the UK (not England) and there are actually quite a number of skiers/boarders in the UK, including England, who aren't just holiday skiers and many who do get lessons from BASI accredited instructors, including a good few thousand skiing in Scotland as well as in France and elsewhere. In fact the ESF are currently actively recruiting through BASI because they have realised that BASI qualifications and British instructors are in demand.
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You know it makes sense.
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roga, That's a good understandable answer, so the BASI qualification scheme obviously ranks highly in places like France despite the fact (notwithstanding Scotaland) that we are not a hugely obvious skiing nation?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, I'm not sure I'd interpret it the same way how about "ESF are actively recruiting through BASI because they recognise that they were losing customers to independent English speaking ski schools who may have had BASI qualifications"
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Poster: A snowHead
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fatbob, Ah, I see - a different way of looking at it.
So is there an minimum qualication that means anyone can teach anywhere? Can you just turn up as an instructor - maybe pay a subscription for use of the mountain facilities and set yourself up as an independant private instructor. If not why not? I would have thought it you were relatively rich a good thing to do might be to travel to a location with your own private instructor for the week, but I get the distinct impression that this would not be permitted - or would it? What about if a skiing family has an instructor as a family member - can they instruct their family? It all seems very complicated for all you that are involved - at least that how it seems from an outside onlooker.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
| roga, That's a good understandable answer, so the BASI qualification scheme obviously ranks highly in places like France despite the fact (notwithstanding Scotaland) that we are not a hugely obvious skiing nation? |
I'd say so yes, as others have said it's ISIA acredited so has the same status as the Fench system at the top level unlike the Canadian qualifications which brings me on to:
| fatbob wrote: |
| Megamum, I'm not sure I'd interpret it the same way how about "ESF are actively recruiting through BASI because they recognise that they were losing customers to independent English speaking ski schools who may have had BASI qualifications" |
Brit holiday makers in France are not looking for BASI qualifications, most probably don't know or care what qualification instructors have as long as their instructor is good. However the ESF do know and care what qualification Brit ski instructors have and I'd suggest they know the BASI L4 (and 3) cut it at international level whereas for all it's merits the Canadian qualification doesn't because it lacks the ISIA stamp. I agree that it is because they are loosing people to the Brit independants but it's also IMHO down to the professionalism and sucess of the pioneering BASIs who worked for the ESF already, I can think of a couple in Tignes who are very highly thought of for example. Also if the ESF weren't that fussy about who was awarding qualifications they'd also be actively recruiting through other English speaking associations too or even trying to get English speaking instructors through their own national system, the fact they are not I think says a lot about the quality of the BASI qualifications and the fact that they are well respected.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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roga, Again no real argument from me and I'm not challenging the undoubted competency of BASI 3s and 4s nor the very good British Instructors working in France. Just cynically I obviously have a view that this relatively new position with welcoming arms thrown out to BASI members has more than a whiff of commercial serendipity about it with enough credibiity on a technical level to satisfy their old guard members. Its good overall that barriers are being broken down by the more progressive schools and must result in higher levels of customer service and satisfaction.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, PSIA is a professional organisation that administers the qualifications for ski instructors (for snowboarding it's AASI) in America. Most ski resorts only have (and allow) one ski school which is adminstered by the mountain, and most ski schools are member schools of PSIA. However, it is not necessary to belong to PSIA, or to even have any qualifications, to work as a ski instructor in the US - each school is responsible for the ability and knowledge of it's instructors, but most do encourage their employees to take PSIA certification.
Where I work all instructors who hold the highest certification from whatever country/organisation they qualified with are counted as equivalent to PSIA Level 3 certified - whether they have an ISIA stamp or not, and this seems to be normal at other resorts too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob,
| Quote: |
Yeh I know but it does seem the be the hardest hurdle to get over for people who are in are already skiing at the highest "instructor" technical level. |
Actually I disagree, from watching the experience of people working through the L4 I think the technical exam is the harddest element of the L4.
| Quote: |
| I find the CSIA ISIA blacklisting fairly politically interesting as well. They are a major alpine nation yet the ROW presumes to tell them that they aren't up to scratch. I can see that flatland BASI has an uphill battle to prove itself worthy and thus I understand entirely the tendency toward overkill on courses ( and no doubt it is not a bad thing to be ensuring standards across the spectrum) but something in the failure to grant equivalence smacks of political rather than technical merits. I can totally understand that there may well be stubbornness on the part of the Canucks too involved. |
As already answered above - ISIA set minimum standards, it's up to individual bodies if they choose to implement them.
Megamum,
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So is there an minimum qualication that means anyone can teach anywhere? Can you just turn up as an instructor - maybe pay a subscription for use of the mountain facilities and set yourself up as an independant private instructor.
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No, each individual country can set their own minimum qualification. However, as far as I'm aware France has the highest minimum standard - and L4 meets that. To work in independently in any country you may have some paperwork to fill in before you can do so - and obviously you would have to be able to work legally from an immigration persepctive.
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Oh, by the way:
| fatbob wrote: |
| I can see that flatland BASI has an uphill battle to prove itself worthy |
Interesting description and I believe one reason why BASI maintains it's base in Scotland is so it can ameliorate that point of view slightly and show that it isn't based in the flatlands of England (although the way some people in the south of England talk you'd think there was nothing but flatland). So for example BASI hosting the ISIA conference in Aviemore from the 11th to the 14th May 2010 and there still being skiing on the mountain at the time helps to show that we do have a domestic ski industry outside of domes and dry slopes despite the best efforts of some in the UK to ignore and/or denigrate it.
| fatbob wrote: |
| roga, Again no real argument from me and I'm not challenging the undoubted competency of BASI 3s and 4s nor the very good British Instructors working in France. Just cynically I obviously have a view that this relatively new position with welcoming arms thrown out to BASI members has more than a whiff of commercial serendipity about it with enough credibiity on a technical level to satisfy their old guard members. Its good overall that barriers are being broken down by the more progressive schools and must result in higher levels of customer service and satisfaction. |
I agree with you about the "commercial serendipity" of welcoming BASI but if BASI weren't up to the mark in terms of the qualifications "commercial serendipity" or not there would be no chance of any wecoming arms. However it is, as you say, good that barriers are being broken down even if the impetus is self-interest (or perhaps mutual interest?) on both sides.
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I find this whole thing slightly amusing, yes CSIA level 3 used to qualify for ISIA and to futher add to my amusement the "mountain safety modules" that BASI now uses to qualify for ISIA was adoped from CSIA.
I have somewhere on my bookshelf a copy of an old BASI manual in (2 parts) which only has 3 pages devoted to off piste, 1 page being a photo, the general message is "avoid off piste it is dangerous"
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I could never have imagined doing a "Mountain Safety" module while I was out in eastern canada........ possibly due to the lack of mountains!!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jamesc, I believe that to be the problem with CSIA, being based East coast they don't seem to understand that there are real mountains in BC. I was shocked that when I asked about the first aid requirement when I did my CSIA, I was told there wasn't a need and I should just call the safety patrol in case of emergency. Might work in the east, but your client could be dead before they arrive in BC.
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| Megamum wrote: |
fatbob, Ah, I see - a different way of looking at it.
So is there an minimum qualication that means anyone can teach anywhere? Can you just turn up as an instructor - maybe pay a subscription for use of the mountain facilities and set yourself up as an independant private instructor. If not why not? I would have thought it you were relatively rich a good thing to do might be to travel to a location with your own private instructor for the week, but I get the distinct impression that this would not be permitted - or would it? |
For France it has to be ISTD Level 4, but there is an allowance for club coaches to coach their members if they travel to and from the UK with them, so UK race clubs can travel to the French Alps to train in Tignes for instance, using their own coaches.
This uses the IVSI system, which in the UK is managed by Snowsport England. To gain IVSI status you have to be a Snowsport England Level 4 Coach. http://www.snowsportengland.org.uk/ivsi-1738.html Holders of BASI Level 3 ISIA can apply to Snowport England to gain equivalence to receive their Level 4 coach status, so in effect a BASI L3 ISIA once they've got the IVSI licence can take a UK club group to the Alps and coach them.
There are some caveats to this:
"Members of a Club or Organisation which is a current member of Snowsport England/Snowsport Wales/Snowsport Scotland
Not seeking to use the licence to operate with beginning skiers
Only seeking to operate with members of a Club or Organisation which is a current member of Snowsport England or Individual skiers who they are coaching on an ongoing basis. "
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FAQ
Though I will say that I didn't perceive that without your posting (I wonder how many other 'punter's realise that too) so thank you for putting that down. So is it ISIA membership/qualification that lets an instructor teach anywhere or does each country have its own requirements?
