 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Timmaah, hmmm,. so Warren Miller isn't allowed to narrate ski films because he looks like and talks like Warren Miller?
Only in America.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So he sold his company and the rights to his image (exclusively) then sold himself on to another company? Seems fair to me.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, except when he sold his company there was a no-compete clause that expired in 1999. So technically, from 1999 he was free to do what he wanted with his own voice. The exclusivity of his voice ended in 1999.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Timmaah, haha, then it's Bollix.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Timmaah, SMALLZOOKEEPER, I suspect that the same lawsuit would be upheld in the same way under European jurisdiction ... Hurtle ?? ... seems very fair to me.
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Agenterre, actually, I don't think so. 1. I think it would be regarded as restrictive and 2. I don't think you can restrain someone from using their trade.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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under a new name, Fair call .. I'm not sure .... but I would criticise anyone for 'Selling the Brand' (prima facie) based upon the fine wording of a 'contract' so WM will not (for me) come out well out of the whole. However only the original parties will know the REAL intent.
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Agenterre, well, in the freeski/newschool area WM has come off very well. People are pretty angry that WME are potentially going to seriously harm Level 1 with this lawsuit. WM did his best to stop it from happening. The morality of not being able to use your own voice is pretty sickening as well. It's all really sad as WME don't film anything themselves anymore. They buy footage from the smaller film companies, such as Level 1...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Timmaah, Great .. I'm neither FreeSchool nor Newski  I think WM sold something then backed off. Warren posts here often so I'm sure he will give his view ... not sure WME are as focused !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agenterre, Warren Miller posts here?!? Think you might have your Warrens in a twist.
A parallel situation was when David Lloyd sold his healthclubs to Whitbread for squillions. His name is still over the door but he cannot start up another David Lloyd - however I believe he's back in the healthclub game but under a different name.
In the case of normal employment, you cannot restrict someone's ability to make a living but, if you sell a trademark that just happens to be your name, it's tough cheese.
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Bode Swiller, Might well have been Bunny Warren ? I wouldn't know one from t'other! 
I agree your other points ..
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Agenterre, actually, I don't think so. 1. I think it would be regarded as restrictive and 2. I don't think you can restrain someone from using their trade. |
not sure about that one...plenty of people tried to stop me stocking various products when i opened... now is that not the same thing 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Not sure about this case, it seems that warren miller is caught in the cross fire.
I do think that the whole intellectual property thing has gotten out of control. The most trivial and generic things are being "protected" then aggressively protected by wealthy business, with small business unable to respond. There was a case a couple of years back when a pub invited its customers to a "festive feast" only to receive a solicitors letter threatening proceeding as their client had protected the term.
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Poster: A snowHead
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CEM, not quite. If someone tried to stop you being a bootfitter at all, even if you had signed an agreement with them that you would not be for x months, it would (apparently) be difficult for them to enforce it. I only know as I've been discussing various clauses like this. A contract saying you agree not to sell and fit Brand X, while selling and fitting brands W, Y and Z might be OK.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Isn't the first time something like this has happened and won't be the last, its the same sort of legal situation that means Rolls Royce cars are now German! The name and associated branding becomes an asset that can bought and sold and just like you can't carry on say using a car once you've sold it to someone else you can't carry on using names and other branding if you have sold them, a bit unfortunate if it happens to be your name, face, voice etc but if you didn't want loose the rights you shouldn't have sold them!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davkt, that makes sense for the name and branding, and even face.. But the voice? How does one "buy" a voice? If he puts on an Irish accent, can he then narrate a film? What if he spoke through one of those voice distortion toys, would that be ok?
The issue seems to then be that he is working with someone other than WME even though his non-compete clause expired in 1999. I presume that the contract wasn't explicit with regards to his voice. So in the scenario of a non-explicit contract is it not then ok for WM to work for/with other film companies?
Is there a difference between Warren Miller - the brand and Warren Miller - the name in terms of legality? If someone puts Warren Miller (the name) as a credit in the film is that infringing on the branding rights that WME bought? Even though it's obviously the name and not the brand?
What if someone else who is called Warren Miller starts up Warren Miller Limited, can he get sued for using his name?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Timmaah, Guess it comes down to what he signed over and took the money for in the contract! Same as anything, if you want to keep it don't sell it! If someone else started Warren Miller Ltd you'd be getting into trademark issues, just like you would be if you started a company called Heinz or Kellogs!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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IMV, he clearly sold the WM brand. If he then starts competing as WM the person, he's passing off and reducing the new owners opportunity to exploit the brand they bought. Need to stop feeling sorry for people who fill their boots and later regret it.
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But the contract allows him to compete as WM the person... and as he was a sort of cameo for Level 1...
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Timmaah, I suspect that the non-compete was all about him having the ability to set up another film company in another name. So he could call it XYZ Films. In no way though would he get away with causing confusion even if others referred to it as a Warren Miller film. Sounds like he basically lost a trademark dispute (and quite right too).
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Bode Swiller, Yep, thats my take on it as well
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| CEM, not quite. If someone tried to stop you being a bootfitter at all, even if you had signed an agreement with them that you would not be for x months, it would (apparently) be difficult for them to enforce it. I only know as I've been discussing various clauses like this. A contract saying you agree not to sell and fit Brand X, while selling and fitting brands W, Y and Z might be OK. |
but without brands how can boot fitter operate..... difficult to modify thin air 
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CEM, actually, you could simply (if not practically) offer to order and fit any boot brand, except, in the case above, brand X. It's more a point that you can't be forbidden from practising your craft, but it can be restricted away from a particular brand for a reasaonable time.
Anyhoo, I don't think it's something we need to worry about in Europe, and also bearing in mind recent US genetic patent cases, maybe not so much in the U.S. either. Even though that's a very different area.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller, agreed. Lets face it - as an 85 year old - probably all he had left to offer the new company was his voice and "humour" which are surely part of the "brand" he sold.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Timmaah, I suspect that the non-compete was all about him having the ability to set up another film company in another name. So he could call it XYZ Films. In no way though would he get away with causing confusion even if others referred to it as a Warren Miller film. Sounds like he basically lost a trademark dispute (and quite right too). |
Interesting. So what is your take on their lawsuit vs Level 1?
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Timmaah, I suspect that the non-compete was all about him having the ability to set up another film company in another name. So he could call it XYZ Films. In no way though would he get away with causing confusion even if others referred to it as a Warren Miller film. Sounds like he basically lost a trademark dispute (and quite right too). |
Interesting. So what is your take on their lawsuit vs Level 1? |
Well that was where the whole case started. Level 1 used WM (the man) as narrator throughout the film. He has undoubtedly got THE most recognisable tone and style and for example, if I had seen the movie, I would have assumed it was a WME movie. After over 50 years of narrating ski flicks, his voice is most definitely a big part of his brand, a brand that was sold to WME for gazillions. If others had been confused by it (especially sponsors) then there is a clear case of passing off in my opinion, whether deliberate or not.
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You know it makes sense.
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I guess that's why Warren has resorted to selling cars here in Seattle. He does a commercial for a local Cadillac dealership here. This is actually old news here in the PNW. Warren got a decent pay check when he sold out but maybe he didn't fully think through what selling out truly meant. At least us folks here in Seattle can listen to those dulcit tones as he tries to sell us a car.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Toadman, ""If you don't buy a caddy this year, it'll be another year before you do""?
I presume?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just my 2p - I'm pretty sure that anyone viewing a Level 1 flick would not mistake it for WME and vice versa. It seems to my read that Warren Miller did a favour for some little guys and WME got unnecessarily bent out of shape over it. The industry isn't that big that people are making squillions out of passing off so regardless of the legal rights and wrongs WME end up looking pretty silly and Warren Miller ends up looking like a good guy IMV.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, the sums of money aren't insignificant though. The big WME sponsors like Nissan are paying out seven figures. I can understand WME nipping this one in the bud because, if they ignored it, the precedent will have been set.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On the other hand WME have given Level 1 levels of publicity they couldn't have dreamt off. Perhaps WME should have just kept quiet and far fewer people would have heard about Refresh!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Just my 2p - I'm pretty sure that anyone viewing a Level 1 flick would not mistake it for WME and vice versa. |
I have no idea what one or t'other would look like but if I heard Warren Miller I would recognize his voice.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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who's warren miller?
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| fatbob, the sums of money aren't insignificant though. The big WME sponsors like Nissan are paying out seven figures. I can understand WME nipping this one in the bud because, if they ignored it, the precedent will have been set. |
A lot of people have been emailing WME's sponsors showing their distaste for WME's actions. You know what the majority say?
"our advertising is not an endorsement for or against any particular cause, candidate or political viewpoint."
^Any many more on a similar wavelength. Their sponsors are only concerned about the demographics and the size of audience. And WM appearing in a Level 1 film definitely had no effect on decreasing the size of WME's audience. Suing Level 1 did.
bertie bassett, he's basically one of the very few men who created the ski film industry.
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Timmaah, or he's an old bloke who wanted to have his cake and to eat it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bertie bassett, a very old man who flogged his 'image' and now wants it back because he has lived longer than perhaps he thought he would have
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I met him in Mammoth Mountain in around '96/'97 and was told he was nearly 80 then. Think he must age by a year and knock 6 months off each time like they do in Hollywood.
It was a bizarre moment - standing in the lodge at the foot of the mountain with an apres drink in my hand and someone pointed out that the bloke next to me was WM. It wasn't a long conversation... "Hi", "Hi Warren" but I shook the hand. Wonder if he still talks about it. No, probably not.
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FAQ
