 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Samerberg Sue,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It is appreciated. I intend to fly in to MUC in February from NZ and hire a car , then off to Saalfelden, and then San Cassiano.Whilst I would have paid the extra for winter tyres it will be interesting to see what the rental firms do.
Last night Sixt still have winter tyres as an extra||
cheers
John
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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whakapapa, I am renting a car at MUC this weekend, I will eye up with interest the tyres on the rows of rental cars and, if any have summer tyres I will eat my hat and report back so if you can hold fire until next week you may get a better picture of what is happening in reality
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Was listening to the US forces radio this morning (don't get BFBS one this far down). They were stating much the same as has been said in this thread. All weather (M+S) or snow tyres if it's snow, ice or frost (but only if using the car - perfectly OK to leave a summer tyre shod car parked up). No dates specified, but they suggested End October to the week after Easter as a guideline (although this coming Easter is rather late), and fines double. Oh... and "it's the responsibility of the person renting a car to make sure it is fitted with suitable tyres" (i'd be interested to see the results of that "eyeing up of rental cars")
Interestingly, nobody here at work has mentioned anything, but then pretty much everyone changes tyres November-March anyway, and most people thought the new law 2 years ago was law.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting that Germany has, apparently, not embedded any dates in the law. This may have a strange effect.
Say Easter comes and goes and everyone changes back to summer tyres. Then a freak storm occurs and the roads are covered in snow. Suddenly, millions of motorists are driving illegally. Conversely, in Austria one could, apparently legally, drive up a mountain road on 16th April on summer tyres no matter what the conditions. Neither case seems satisfactory.
Another detail of law seems troublesome too. The "M+S" mark is not a controlled symbol. In fact, different manufacturers express it in different ways - for example: "M+S", "M/S", "M-S" etc. Not only that but, as far as I can tell at the moment, it's the manufacturer who decides which tyres to put it on. Unless I am mistaken, there doesn't seem to be any common standard. How can this be embedded in law?
Conversely, the snowflake and mountain (S+M ?) symbol *is* controlled. Apparently, in 1999, The U.S. Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify tyres that gave 10% more traction than a reference tyre during tests on packed snow. Only designs that pass this test may carry the symbol.
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altis, all this talk about S+M and rubber- am I on the right forum?
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altis, to me the German way seems more logical (when there's snow on the road, you should have winter tyres) but not entirely practical outside the "normal" season. The Austrian regulation is easier to understand and apply but, if someone applies it exactly, it may not give the optimum safety. However, as was said earlier in the thread, the laws are really only backup to what should be each driver's common sense. And, as Samerberg Sue mentioned, folk here tend to change the tyres according to the prevailing weather conditions (I usually put the winter tyres on in October and off late April). Sometimes we have snow in the summer but (at my level) it usually isn't that serious.
With regard to the markings on the tyres, that does all seem rather wishy-washy. And things like All-Year-Tyres are also accepted. Whether these details are based on scientific test or rather the result of some industry lobbying, I wouldn't like to guess.
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smithski,
Look forward to what you find at MUC, the rental companies will try and make as much as possible.It only needs one to break ranks though.
cheers
John
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Found a definition of "M+S" from the Rubber Manufacturer's Association 
http://www.rma.org/getfile.cfm?ID=966&type=publication
All it defines is that:
1) at least one tread edge must have slots of a specified minimum size
2) the voids must make up at least 25% of the read pattern
There's no mention of harder rubber or any other testing.
The only down sides I can see of using M+S all the year is more tyre noise (knobblier pattern) and slightly increased wear (less rubber to share the load). This probably also explains why VW suggest using a higher pressure in winter tyres. Wonders if hire companies will just use M+S all the time as they sell the cars on quickly so wear will not be an issue and the punters will rarely worry about tyre noise.
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| tiffin wrote: |
| Northern lasses would be happy with some dodgy remoulds |
but only if they are a nice colour,Whatever kind they are. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I know everyone's talking about Germany and Austria but do any of you know people who use them in this country, even if they're not planning on going abroad.
I don't know about 4x4s but I drive a VW Polo here in England and have just had four Marangoni 4winter tyres put on. Before the snow arrived I noticed a difference in the grip on the road and with snow, slush and ice here now and very early morning starts, I am delighted with them. Apparently, with temperatures below +7c the rubber hardens giving the tyres less grip and that's not to mention the increased tread on the tyres. On my car a full set with intallation, alignment etc cost £255, a small price to pay for your personal safety and in the long run that cost disappears as your summer tyres last twice as long. If you can store the others at home, great, if not, Kwikfit store them for £45 a season and change the tyres back over for around £20. Having lived in Munich for 14 odd years up until '98 and experiencing our last few winters here in the UK, I think maybe the government has a certain responsiblity to raise people's awareness of them over here because loads of people have never heard of them. We can't just slate our local councils (although we can do that, too) and take no responsibility ourselves. Anyone agree?
Sorry, turned into a bit a rant for one of my few posts but it's my bee in the bonnet at the moment  so please excuse me 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| nicmk65 wrote: |
I know everyone's talking about Germany and Austria but do any of you know people who use them in this country, even if they're not planning on going abroad.
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I have done so for the first time this winter. As it happened, I got them fitted three days before the first snow arrived.
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How many of the millions of UK vehicle owners can afford the expense of a set of Winter tyres?
What a, On the spot fine, Money Spinning ,Cash Cow that would be if it became the Law in the UK.
Safety wise it makes sense to use them in our current conditions.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
the expense of a set of Winter tyres?
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it's only a cash flow issue - you don't need to spend any more on tyres if you have two separate sets.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
the expense of a set of Winter tyres?
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it's only a cash flow issue - you don't need to spend any more on tyres if you have two separate sets. |
Well you do spend a little more.
£20 twice a year to have them swapped over, and if you haven't got spare room to store the ones not in use, a storage charge.
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Poster: A snowHead
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What would the downside be to normal driving on snow/ice free tarmac roads with non studded Winter tyres fitted?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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cc_7up, A little more wear and road noise is usual. Probably not quite as planted for sporty summer driving but you can get high performance winter tyres with stiff sidewalls. I'm gonna run mine all year.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| cc_7up wrote: |
| What would the downside be to normal driving on snow/ice free tarmac roads with non studded Winter tyres fitted? |
None at all for most of the winter.
Possibly slightly noisier, and possibly wear slightly faster once the temperature gets above optimum.
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alex_heney,
| Quote: |
£20 twice a year to have them swapped over
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£15.00 each wheel is the very best I can find around here 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just asked OH what he paid the other day, and it is £10 each wheel which includes balancing and new valves. That's our little local garage up the road.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| cc_7up wrote: |
| How many of the millions of UK vehicle owners can afford the expense of a set of Winter tyres? |
My normal comment to stupid thing like this is "If you can't afford winter tires, buy smaller and cheaper car". It really is as simple as that. Crying that winter tires for 100.000eur worth BMW or Audi are around 2000eur and it's so expensive is just plain stupid. If you can't afford 2000eur tires, then you realistically can't afford 100.000eur car either. Then buy 50.000eur worth car and you have enough money to buy winter tires for rest of your life... especially since for cheaper cars, tires are far from 1000 or 2000eur expense.
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Rather a high handed comment that Primoz.
Not everyone has a 100.000 eur bmw or an income to afford one so many of we mere mortals have to make do with the car we've got.
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| cc_7up wrote: |
Rather a high handed comment that Primoz.
Not everyone has a 100.000 eur bmw or an income to afford one so many of we mere mortals have to make do with the car we've got. |
All he said was, to paraphrase his post, "If you can't afford to maintain a car, you should buy one that's cheaper to maintain"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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When it comes to a matter of choices many motorists in UK are willing to spend the money on booze than buy a decent set of winter tyres that they can drive safely in winter.
Most of them don't even know what winter tyres can do for them.
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Whats the problem with this rules?,,, Sweden had this for many years,, and it saves lives,,, I live in france, and it had been Ok here to,,, I have ben in England when there was snowstorm,,, and seen English drivers,,, horrible,,,,
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fitted a set to the wife's car for the first time this year - the level of grip is unbelievable. Personally if I couldn't afford two sets of tyres I would run winter ones all year round. Luckily it's not been to bad dahn sarf but IMHO venturing out in the conditions that they are having oop norf without winter tyres is comparable to driving around with bald tyres in the summer.
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Anyone eyeballed Munich hire fleets' tyres yet? Esp Thrifty. About to book minibus, would rather not pay for winter tyres if they will be on it anyway (they weren't last year).
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| sbirring wrote: |
| ..but IMHO venturing out in the conditions that they are having oop norf without winter tyres is comparable to driving around with bald tyres in the summer. |
As someone who has used winter tyres for the first time ever this year, I have to say I agree.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| nicmk65 wrote: |
I know everyone's talking about Germany and Austria but do any of you know people who use them in this country, even if they're not planning on going abroad.
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I have done so for the first time this winter. As it happened, I got them fitted three days before the first snow arrived. |
We did too, we're very proud of operating an efficient 'just in time' approach!
Am delighted with the performance, it's really noticeably better than standard tyres, and if nothing else, I am the only person who can get onto our car park at work so have the pick of the top space each morning (great for me as I'm 7 months pregnant), and am not running the gauntlet of getting fined for leaving it on on-street parking! Joking aside though, my commute is mainly on untreated rural lanes and I hated doing it last year in the ice. This year it really is a doddle in comparison.
Also agree with nicmk65 that it would really be better for the country as a whole if there was in general just more awareness that this is an option, and a fairly economical one, that would improve all round safety for all road users with minimal investment.
We pay £30 a set to get ours changed and that includes storage of the other tyres for the rest of the year.
D
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ghost Dog,
Smithski was in Munich earlier this week and said they would have a look and report back
John
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mr Jim Stuart, I'm sure you lurk around these forums, have you been through Munich recently?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I took advantage of the warm spell at the weekend to wash my van and noticed, to my astonishment, that the two new tyres I had put on recently had "M+S" clearly marked on the side. They are Runway Enduro 806 manufactured in China by http://www.giti.com/index-en.html. Cheap and nasty I know, but there is a very limited choice in the oddball size required.
They are sold in this country as "summer tyres" and clearly don't satisfy the RMA definition of M+S given above. Yet, because they carry the mark, apparently they are legal rubberware in Germany. How long before M+S gets struck off the acceptable tyre list?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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altis, they need the mountain and snowflake symbol as well to pass the visual inspection the police carry out. And if you only have them on one axle be prepared for the "summer" end to lose traction - if they are on the rear axle, they have a tendency to try and overtake the front one! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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M+S tyres are acceptable.
Here are the relevant details (including pictures of acceptable tyres) from the German embassy in London:
http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/london/en/04/Transport/Winter__Tyres.html
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As of 4 Dec 2010 drivers of cars and motorbikes are required to have their cars fitted with winter tyres when driving in slushy, snowy or icy conditions.
Failure to do so can incur a fine of 40 Eur and one point on your licence. This will increase to 80 Eur and one point if you cause an obstruction.
Additionally your insurance may not cover any damage caused in an accident.
Winter tyres are marked with “M+S”, a snowflake or a mountain pictogram. (see pictures below)
If your car is not fitted with these tyres you can still drive provided there are no wintry conditions on the roads, i.e. slush, snow or ice.
You are also required to ensure visibility at all times. Make sure you have anti-freeze in your windscreen wiper system and flush it through thoroughly before setting off on your journey. |
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Heard on the radio last Friday that the Germans have given leeway to non-German cars until 31/12 - however, this is only in "good' conditions - if it's snowing they'll throw the book at you anyway.
This has had a massive effect on sourcing winter tyres this year - when I got mine last week there were just TWELVE tyres left of this type in the whole of The Netherlands! 
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This is the funniest thing I have seen all winter...
(picture by a friend, not me)
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FAQ
I've been reading all the treads on the subject recently, to help me decide whether to do so or not.
