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Shop serviced ski's - why have they dulled my edges at tips and tails?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I've just been out and skied my ski's after them having a service and thought nothing of my poor showing of technique.
When I checked my ski's this evening I noticed they've had both the tips and tails dulled off quite badly.
I can understand this with long straight ski's but I was under the impression that you were meant to keep the tips and tails as sharp as the rest of the ski with modern carvers.
The ski's are a pair of Metron M9's FWIW.

What should I do? Am I best to keep my ski's like this?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rockyrobin, Was it EB's at Castleford?

Most shops tend to do this & EB's at Castleford have detuned the tips & tails of my old 5*'s in the past.

When researching after my recent B5 purchase I was told by many people (who are more knowledgeable & of higher ability than me, inc an Atomic rep) to ensure that when I had them serviced that the tips & tails were not detuned. I'll need my first service soon & I plan on following this advice but I'm going to ensure that my request not to detune them is put on the service form in BIG letters along with my edge angles request. A reasonable detune on my 162cm B5's would be quite a percentage of the edge length!

I've recently read one of ssh's posts on Epicski were he was talking about having his B5's tuned, but not then detuned. As Steve is the Metron guru hopfully he'll reply to your post.

I think that it's simply a case of the shop guys not keeping up with the ever changing modern equipment, especially the short, radically sidecut Metron range.

I've a few questions for you:
Had your M9's been detuned when you got them?
What is the factory side & base angle set-up?
Did you specify the angles for your tune (I always specify a 1 degree base angle & a 3 degree side angle) ?

The reason I ask is that when examaining skis in shops most seem to be detuned & many people are not aware of the detune. Could the store have set the angles differently to what you're used to, hence the different feeling on the slope.

When carving on hardpack in Courchevel I could certainly tell the difference between an 89 degree side angle on my 5*'s & the 87 degrees that I then had the Freeride store in 1650 tune them to.

Ask to whether to get the store to redo the tune I can't say as that's adding unecessary wear etc. Maybe you'll just have to live with it untill your next tune is due.

Looks like you'll be doing your own servicing from now on then snowHead
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spyderjon, Thanks for the info.

I didn't get them done at Castleford but at Glide Slide.

When I got the ski's they were fresh from the shrinkwrap with just the bindings mounted and then whisked straight off to play :sH;
I really enjoyed the way I could tip these ski's over, get my weight over the front and these puppies carved like crazy. Made me feel like a superstar Laughing
They were so much fun with their 10.5 metre turn radius and short 157 length.
Now they just feel like longer ski's and all that fun has gone.
Crying or Very sad
In answer to your questions:
When new they were sharp tip to tail.
I'm afraid I dont know what the base angle is but was told the side angle was 89 degrees.
I did not specify any preference for angles etc, thinking they would know best.

Looks like this has forced me into getting out of lazy mode and doing them myself from now on.

When you had your Volkl's detuned - did you notice a loss of a riding on rails feeling?
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rockyrobin, that 89 degrees, Atomic don't seem to think so (from http://www.atomicski.com/ on the FAQ page, not that silly Flash site atomicsnow.com) :


Ski Tuning - IMPORTANT Information

EDGE - At the Atomic factory, we tune every ski with a 1 degree base bevel, and a 3 degree side bevel for maximum performance. When it becomes necessary to retune an Atomic ski, use factory specifications of 1 degree base bevel and 3 degree side bevel to maintain top performance.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
comprex, Thanks for the linky Smile
I was wondering where to find out what angles I should have.

Only thing that is confusing me now is I have never heard of the angles being described as bevels before, just the angle.
I'm presuming that the 3 degree side bevel will convert to an 88 degree side angle from the horizontal?

I'll see if I can measure the angles I have at present with a couple of straight edges and protractor.

Now all i need is an angle jig like those ones on Toko's site with spring clamp and file(s).
Does anyone know where you can buy this kind of stuff in the UK?
All the edge tuning stuff i've seen is the pocket style stuff which I find is not very good for working right up to the extreme of the edges top and bottom.
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rockyrobin, the concept of 'horizontal' is a bit tricky. If you define 'horizontal' as 'the ideal plane I would like my base ptex to be flat in' then 3 degree side bevel converts to 87 degrees from that plane.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
If you want a specific tune then you should ask for that and even then it should be a shop that you know and trust.
Dull tips and edges is an old school thing when generally skis were 195 plus and it was done to prevent catching an edge.
If the ski shop still adheres to that line of thinking I wouldn't take a ski back there.
Ask them to explain themselves and try to wrangle a free service next time you need one...if you think you can trust them again
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
comprex, Thanks for trying to describe how the angles work. Looks like i'm current holder of "thicky batton" Laughing
Does this picture mean the same thing? I find it easier to understand visually without the thicky batton clouding my thoughts Wink


JT, I do wonder if shops just dulll the tips to cover themselves from being blamed if someone has an accident?
I guess its all water under the bridge now as i'm going to try and be my own ski technician from now on Laughing

If anyone knows of anywhere that sells the more "Pro" orientated tuning gear that have an online sales web site and can ship to the UK would be very grateful for the linkys Smile
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rockyrobin, one change: drop that red line denoting '3 degrees side bevel' down to the same line you start measuring '1 Degree' from.

The assumption is that your bases are ideally flat and all measurements are taken from there.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 28-04-05 22:25; edited 1 time in total
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comprex, Thanks Smile Feeling more confident about handing on the "thicky batton" now Smile
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some places to check for tuning gear:

http://www.facewest.co.uk/pp/board/tuning.htm
http://www.snowandrock.com/shop/activity/ski/equipment/ski_wax
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/shop/index.php?cPath=1_131&osCsid=b01c5aac0900bd96af7526c3e3e5b6c0

cheers,

Greg
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
hmm interesting thread...my new skis are with EB in Castleford right now for wax n edges after a few sessions down the snowdome. I have to say I'd assumed they'd use the manufacturers recommended angles (1 deg and 1 deg according to the tech manual on the Head website) rolling eyes ...kinda wish I'd asked about it now. Anyway I phoned today after reading this to enquire what they'd done and the ski dude wasn't there. Guess I'll find out when I pick em up on Saturday morning.
I'll be keeping an eye out for detuned tips n tails too. Thanks for all the great info folks!
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
levitator, do let us know when we start to go on. rolling eyes Shocked snowHead Laughing
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
gregh, Thanks for the linkys Smile

levitator, Be interested to hear how your ski's get on.
If they do detune your tips be interested to know if you too notice the difference in eagerness to initiate turns.
Anoying thing is that if they do detune your tips its going to take quite a bit of reworking the tips to get them blended back in with the rest of the ski edges Sad I can only guess how much this will shorten the ski's longevity with less edge material to work with.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Interesting discussion, I've always believed the final edge angle is the resultant angle after the base and side bevel are completed. Hence 1 base and 3 side gives a resulting angle of 88 degrees.

Completely wrong ?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
comprex,

I assume the 1 degree base angle should apply only to the edge or maybe also a slither of base immediately adjacent to the edge? Not a whole half of the base all the way to the transverse midline giving the boat hull cross-section appearance as has been depicted in the diagram Puzzled

I have a handheld edger Smile (a Toko FETS with angle adjustable base and side stones, about 10yrs old?) I'm afraid to use Sad because I find it hard to believe I'm capable of handling it with a fine enough degree of control to achieve what it says on the box rolling eyes (I've set it at 1degree base and 3 degree side to get 88 degrees) and secondly, because I found it filed the few mm of base adjacent to the edge and I wasn't sure if that would mean I'd have to in some way polish or rewax everytime I used it. Puzzled

To be honest I'm happy to pay to get my skis serviced each season (with specific instructions to the servicer! Toofy Grin ). All I'd like to do myself is to be able to resharpen the edges without doing more harm than good, and maybe to put a useful non-hot wax on, on a day to day basis in resort. snowHead
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lol comprex thanks for the link, you can never have too much info...... Puzzled

rockyrobin, I'll be taking em out for a spin when I get em on saturday Very Happy so I'll post findings....a bit concerned when you say they'll need a lot of reworking to undo the detuning if that's been done - sounds like they took a fair bit of metal off yours?!? Did you ask the shop about putting them back to how they were before.? Or for a new pair wink ....
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rockyrobin,

No, I don't think they do it regarding accident liability, more likely they do them in batch and messing around with angles is a pain.

I don't bother with angles for two reasons, the first is how an undesired tune can ruin your skiing, and second, because you are taking too much edge away and therefore it shortens the life of the ski.
As I hire now...for a variety of reasons... all I expect from a premium ski is a good tune which I think would be in the shops interest as they are probably trying to sell this ski and if I don't like the ski I take it straight back.
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I agree, if you keep playing with the angles, you will reduce the life of the ski, but if you stay with one setting, the edges won't be the first thing to go through normal wear and tear.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
slikedges, Don't be afraid. You don't need re-wax after sharpening - although if you are doing one, then y not do the other.... If your sharpener has the angles built in, you won't ruin your skis - I used a hand file for 15 years until some one gave me a specific ski file.

For me, on all skis, I use 88 side amd 0 base, seems to work fine, but (to be really honest) I'm not sure I'm good enough to notice the difference between 87, 88 or 89 anyway !

The only thing I am a bit careful to do, however, is to run a stone along my edges every day (or so), especially if I'm having to to ski on marked pistes - hard snow, ice and rocks will causes burrs and blunting of your edges, and 2 minutes with a stone each day will retore them.
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ski,

I'm happy with the side edge but you're saying I don't need to be concerned when the base file of the edge sharpener scores/roughens a strip of the base adjacent to the edge? Confused
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
slikedges, I don't know what your sharpener is like. I expect it
Quote:

scores/roughens a strip


when you are doing the base edges ?

If so, then, 1) Are you using it correctly, and 2) you will need to wax after that.


Most (all) of the time, I just do the side edges, and then (seasonally) do the base edges.


Hope that helps
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
ski,

Thanks. Yes, it's one of those with a side file and base file in one unit. It's meant for doing both at the same time though it is poss to change the file stones, and therefore it's poss to just leave one set out and do side edge or base edge separately. The side edge bit is straightforward, but the base edge file is wider than my base edge by a few mm so that it not only files the base edge, but also a few mm of the base lying alongside the base edge, leaving a roughened strip parallel and adjacent to the base edge along the length of the ski.
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ski, BTW, your presence is required at the party in the Apres Zone
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slikedges, Can you remove the base file ? Then you'll only do the side edges, and won't damage your skis !

Apres Zone - where's that then ?
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
ski, Sorry, but I got caught up at the party.

Directions to Helen Beaumont's End of Season Party - I think there's some food left and definitely some booze though most of the guests are worn out by now (actually drunk as skunks)

Retrace your steps to snowHeads Forum Index, go straight down almost to the end and go in where signposted Apres Zone just before entering Development. It's then just at the top signposted Announcement!
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