 Poster: A snowHead
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After learning to skii in Scotland (Ben Nevis and Glenshee) over the last 3 years, we are contemplating continental Europe this season.
We've only been skiing 3 seasons, and we are a family of 5, aged from 9 - 43.
My middle child stated that she would like lessons again this year, to learn how to steer in the icy bits, and stay up in the heather.
Time to move on.
I'm told continental skiing has wide open pistes and decent lifts. As a boarder, this would be an advantage.
Can anyone reccomend the most economic, but civilised place to go to stretch our skiing a little, and our purse as little as possible.
Thanks,
Iain
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Slovenia or Slovakia, Slovenia had better lessons but Slovakia is much cheaper
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi Strax,
It's like pam w said. Half Term is going to be more costly than other dates.
eg. we can do you a 5 bed family room for £590 - fully inclusive lift pass, equipment, hotel, transfer, etc, etc from Glasgow, with free ski school.
But, there will be places that are much cheaper than that, so it all depends on where and more importanly when you want to go.
Have a look around the web and see if there is anything that grabs you then post a question asking for details on here
Good luck on your 1st trip out of scotland
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Wayne, £590 per person I assume? As Strax is a bit of a newbie it might be as well to be specific.
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Sounds like you want to find one of the smaller resorts/villages and avoid the big areas that have the high costs. From experience, France and Switzerland is more expensive than Italy and Austria. The Pyrenees may be a good option for you.
Best thing to do is go onto some holiday company web sites and see what you like the look of. Do a bit of online reading.
I just got a newsletter from ifyouski.com which seems to have some good bargains. With the age of your kids, you may be better looking for a self catered chalet than a hotel which will give you the option to eat what and when you like and save you a fair bit of cash that you would spend on food in other places.
There's also some areas that give cheaper "family" lift passes as opposed to buying 5 individual ones.
I just got Daily Mail Ski and Snowboard mag at the weekend and it has a good section in it devoted to family skiing and saving money. Worth the cost of the mag for that information - got it in WH Smiths.
Good luck and enjoy the efforts of looking for your holiday - it can be good fun learning about all the different places.
Bear in mind as well, that some resorts will suit a boarder more than others as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Strax, Have a look at Soll in the Skiwelt, Andora could be good as well.
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holidayloverxx,
Yeah you're right, sorry.
May be academic anyway as we only have between 8 and 12 seats left on the Glasgow flights for most departures during Jan and non for Feb
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Livigno is definitely worth a look. DIY, cheap flights, self catering and hire a car to get from the airport. Its a long transfer but you can't have everything 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just don't go to bulgaria
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You know it makes sense.
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Strax,
The most economic in Europe may not be the best.
Economy is partly dependatn on when you go as well as where you go. February school holidays being expensive, if you are forced to go school holiday time Easter holidays are usually cheaper though this year being late it may pay to look high if this is what you choose.
I hope your daughter is not too dissapointed by Europe in my experience ice and heather are much poorer quality in Europe than in than Scotland on the whole. Likewise in your search for lifts you are unlikely to find anything in the majority of European resorts that have the same historic interest and diversity of Scotlands lifts, however some European resorts are worthwhile for a change.
In general small/medium resorts offer much better value than the large ones if you are needing to save onthe money. In france I have recently been sking very cheaply in the Maurrienne valley in resorts such as Val Cenis & Valloire. In Italyresorts such as La Thuile offer value skiing with reliable snow. Middling Austrian resorts also offer great value but knowing when you are likely to go would make specific recommendations more easy as there are resorts that I would consider in mid february but not mid april.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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When I looked into the possibility of a weekend in Scotland the cost was pretty much the same as a short break in the Alps. So you might be pleasantly surprised with the costs.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I will echo queen bodecia view that skiing in Europe is that more expensive than doing it in Scotland. I would add the following points though
(1) The major difference is of course to get there and back. Thus there is an extra cost in term of crossing the North Seas.
(2) The ski pass in Europe will definitely cost more before you are buying access right for more chairlifts, gondolas and cable cars. Take 3V in France for example you have unlimited access to 200 chairlifts. Some of the chairlifts have heated seats and weather shielding bubble.
(3) European accommodation and food should be cheaper than Scotland on a like to like basis.
I think the most important change is you should always have snow and there should beplenty of it all the time if you choose the resort and the time wisely. Having a car will be a great help.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks for all the replies, we're now trying to balance between taking our Caravan to Scotland, and leaving it in Aviemore from December-March (cost £1100) which would let us ski at half term, Christmas and maybe a few long weekends
OR
7 days in Europe.
When its written like that, its a no-brainer really.
Thanks for all your lovely suggestions, I really wanted to know if there was a cheap way into Europe. A fellow caravanner suggested he had an apartment rented at Easter for around £600...perhaps he forgot to add "per person" aswell. I reckon we'll try Europe another year.
Thanks,
Strax
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I ski in Scotland and Europe every year and don't know that I could choose between the two if I had to..... 1 week is just not enough if it's that or Scotland...
However you can do Europe cheaply. If you're used to sleeping in a caravan then you won't mind squashing in a small apartment. We ususally pay around £200 pp/week but that is always under occupied as we never sleep on sofa beds in the living room.
You have probably missed the cheapest flights but should still be able to get some for around £100-£150/person including a case and ski bag, living in Leeds you should have more choice than we do in Scotland. You might not need a case and bag for every person, we always have 2 pairs of skis in a bag. I generally pay around another £100pp to get to resort although you my be cheaper hiring a car for a family.
Eating in is as cheap as it is here and I take sandwiches and just buy hot drinks and soup on the mountain. It would be more fun to be able to eat out but I'm a student and it's the only way I can afford to do the 50 days I did last year 
oh and here is my trip report for Jasna in Slovakia, very cheap!
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewpost.php?p=597011
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I dont really think the costs of skiing in europe are that much greater then Scotland, other than the additional cost of the flights. As has already been said, you should be able to get cheapish flights for £100-150 per person.
You can find low cost apartment rentals in Europe from a little as £300 for a week (for the apartment, not per person). Have a look on sites such as skihorizon.co.uk or igluski.com.
How much do you pay for lift passes in Scotland, for say those two weeks?
I think you can find comparible prices in the Alps. Just go to the smaller-name resorts and you will find the prices are much more reasonable. Try looking at Risoul, Valmeinier/Valloire, Pyrinese (Andorra), Bulgaria, etc, as these places are likely to have low cost accommodation and cheap lift passes. If you book accomm and lift pass together at ski horizon, they often give you a 10% discount per lift pass. Some resorts also do family passes, which can save even more cash. Also try looking at some tour orperator websites like Crytal, Rocketski, Alpine Elements, or even places such as travel zoo or lastminute.com.
I currently manage to arrange a ski holiday to Alps each year on about £500 - 600 per person, all in (flight, transfer, accommodation, supermarket shop for food, ski hire/carriage, lift pass), and that is based on all adults sharing, so you should be able to it on a little less with children (cheaper lift passes).
So an apartment for say £500 (worse case) + flights £500 + Food (£250, if you eat in the whole time) + lift pass £500 + transfer £200 (estimate, depends on the resort), I think you could get a holiday for £2k. You would pay even less if you went to Slovakia, Bulgaria rather than the Alps proper. How does this compare with Scotland? Including transport from your home to Scotland, lift passes, food, etc? If your accommodation is already costing £1100 (admittedly for the whole winter), then you are probably looking at more than 2k for you hols?
Maybe dont dismiss the Alps just yet, and have a little dig? The difference in extent of area, quality and abundance of snow, is worth experiencing. Dont get me wrong, I do like Scotland. On a good day it can be amazing but on the all too frequent bad days it can be a tough place to ski.
Good luck with whatever holdiay you do go on. Enjoy the skiing!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
So an apartment for say £500 (worse case) + flights £500 + Food (£250, if you eat in the whole time) + lift pass £500 + transfer £200 (estimate, depends on the resort), I think you could get a holiday for £2k.
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prices not necessarily realistic for half term, I'm afraid.
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| A fellow caravanner suggested he had an apartment rented at Easter for around £600...perhaps he forgot to add "per person" aswell. |
Definitely you could get an apartment at Easter for around £600 (per apartment, not per person). Here's a very nice one at half that. 350 euros - but 900 at half term.
http://www.locapart-lessaisies.com/planning.htm
The cost of accommodation is the least of your worries, though. If you can go in the easter holidays, I'd say give it a go!
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| Quote: |
prices not necessarily realistic for half term, I'm afraid.
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Sorry, I was meaning pre-xmas week or easter. The OP did not specifically say they wanted to travel at half term, although they are restricted to school holidays. Half term is more expensive, so not the week I would suggest for a family looking to go ski in Europe on a tight budget.
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| Strax wrote: |
Thanks for all the replies, we're now trying to balance between taking our Caravan to Scotland, and leaving it in Aviemore from December-March (cost £1100) which would let us ski at half term, Christmas and maybe a few long weekends
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What about the cost of getting there and back? And lift pass?
Though as one of the few on this board who can drive to ski, I'm fully aware of the economy of drive vs. fly. With a big family, the balance is strongly in favor of driving over flying. For single/couple, the cost of fligth+transfer can be easily balanced out by other cost. Not so for a family of 5.
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Having skied Scotland a few times and Europe a lot, we are talking Local pitch and Put versus Augusta, Local Rec v Wembly, Back Garden with a net across v Wimbledon. The difference in range, extent, and variability of Skiing cannot be really compared. Chances of Sunny days and great Mountain restaurants is also a factor.
When I last looked at gong to Scotland last year when thr snow was deep and I thought we could sneak in a quick weekend, I worked out the cost of Driving there exceeded the cost of flights to Geneva. Accomodation was dearer in Scotland too.
Chalk and Cheese Strax, no comparison. Honest.
Consider driving there, then an appartment self Catering. La Thuile, possible, Avoriaz, Samoens. Lots to look at, Plenty of resorts do hook ups for mobile homes, - presume they could do a Caravan -not sure. Again La Thuile and Samoen both have these wth many others. Needs to be Winterised though needless to say.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 30-09-10 19:51; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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twoodwar,
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Having skied Scotland a few times and Europe a lot, we are talking Local pitch and Put versus Augusta, Local Rec v Wembly, Back Garden with a net across v Wimbledon. The difference in range, extent, and variability of Skiing cannot be really compared.
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I know Scotland is good but don't over egg the omelette it's not that much better than Europe.
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yeah but the problem is its 1 week in Europe vs multiple weeks and weekends in Scotland.....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
multiple weeks and weekends in Scotland.....
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yeah but, yeah but. Only those weeks and weekends when there's snow. Last year was just a wee bit exceptional.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Strax, Your friend was indeed right, and possibly putting on a few quid!! You get the apartment for that not per person! After all it is not a TO.
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Look at Peak Retreats brochure. Villa Monette Samoens , MGM 4 star Appartment sleeps 4 to 6 - 2 bedrooms. £1027 including Eurotunnel w/c Feb 12th - if still available. Some decent value stuff and a bit cheaper than this. (Xavier - another Beer to me)
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You know it makes sense.
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We learnt in Scotland and would agree that if you can ski there you can anywhere! After Scotland we went for 2 years in a row to Andorra which I think was cheaper then than it is now. But have also gone to some of the smaller French resorts. We have always kept the cost down by renting apartments from Holiday Rentals website or similar for our family of 6.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| carettam wrote: |
| How much do you pay for lift passes in Scotland, for say those two weeks? |
Season pass would probs be best if doing a few weeks - adult Cairngorm pass up until today (deadline for reduced price) was £280, after that £388. This gives reductions on ticket prices at any other Scottish ski area you ski at and loads of deals in the Aviemore area as well as 10% off everything at Cairngorm.
BTW, good to see (most) people being very fair to Scotish skiing
However:
| twoodwar wrote: |
Having skied Scotland a few times and Europe a lot, we are talking Local pitch and Put versus Augusta, Local Rec v Wembly, Back Garden with a net across v Wimbledon. The difference in range, extent, and variability of Skiing cannot be really compared. Chances of Sunny days and great Mountain restaurants is also a factor.
When I last looked at gong to Scotland last year when thr snow was deep and I thought we could sneak in a quick weekend, I worked out the cost of Driving there exceeded the cost of flights to Geneva. Accomodation was dearer in Scotland too.
Chalk and Cheese Strax, no comparison. Honest. |
A trice over the top IMHO, dunno where you've skied twoodwar or what level you're at but when you get people whove skied most mountain ranges in the world and many of the highest peaks including Everest making the following comments I know which I agree with the more:
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| Per Jonsson skiing in the Ben Nevis ski resort in Scotland. Here, the snow was super cold with a beautiful and magic cloud layer in the horizon. We could never even have dreamt about the conditions Scotland offered us last February. Fresh snow, blue sky and cold temperatures. Steep, exciting mountains and friendly people. What else could we ever have asked for? To be honest, we didn't expect the Scottish mountains to look this big. And with these conditions, Scotland for sure keeps up with some of the best resorts in the Alps. It snowed before we came, and it snowed after we left. This is a trip I will never forget! |
Fredrik Schenholm blog, september 20, 2010
Sorry you missed out on it last season, it was awesome and I can say, hand on heart, I've seen worse conditions at times in the Alps and NA than I saw in Scotland for much of the last season and it seems Schenholm and his pro buddies agree!
To be honest your description of prices may be closer to the mark in as far as it is easy to get cheap all in trips to the Alps but sharing transport to Scotland makes it as cheap if not cheaper than last minute flights and accomodation can easily be found cheaply in my experience.
However that's not what the original poster was asking and they seem to have made the sensible choice, as in going for a few weeks in Scotland rather than just a week in the Alps, IMHO anyway 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm a big fan of Scotland but when we lived there for a while I only managed one trip to the Cairngorms. I think the conditions were generally pretty poor the years we were there (1984 - 1990) but the problem was you could never predict the conditions and get things together to get up there. Would be easier now with easy information on the internet. With a very full time job and three children it took a bit of planning to do anything like that - at least with summer sailing or camping trips you could still go, even if the weather was ABC.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
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multiple weeks and weekends in Scotland.....
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yeah but, yeah but. Only those weeks and weekends when there's snow. Last year was just a wee bit exceptional. |
It's a bit of a myth that the snow simply dissapears all over Scotland, it's the quality and extent of it that gets affected rather than it's simply dissapearing altogether - at Cairngorm there's usually snow at the top through the season, however it's a bit limited if that's all there is and you're not a beginner or willing to tour outwith the ski area!
Frankly I grew up skiing Scotland, I didn't touch the Alps last year but I know how fickle the weather can be in a bad year and I'd still see the choice of multiple weeks in Scotland or one week in the Alps as an absolute no brainer, I wouldn't have to hesitate a moment in making my choice to be honest!
Sometimes I think it takes foreigners (see my post above) to see and tell the truth of what we've got, most Brits, apart form the hard core minority, would never believe, or IMHO want to admit, that Scotland could be *that* good even in such an exceptional season as the last one - you could see it in the posts here last season, whenever anyone mentioned how much snow and how good it was in Scotland there would always be a group of people coming along to point out it was also great (better being the implication) in Courcheval, Les Arcs, Tignes etc. 
It strikes me from the comments posted that Strax knows well enough what it can be like in Scotland and has made a choice on that basis and horror struck though those with 'Alpine blinkers' on may be (and I appreciate you're not amongst them Pam) I'd applaud the choice
| pam w wrote: |
| I'm a big fan of Scotland but when we lived there for a while I only managed one trip to the Cairngorms. I think the conditions were generally pretty poor the years we were there (1984 - 1990) but the problem was you could never predict the conditions and get things together to get up there. Would be easier now with easy information on the internet. With a very full time job and three children it took a bit of planning to do anything like that - at least with summer sailing or camping trips you could still go, even if the weather was ABC. |
Fair enough but there was some bloke from Perth on here a while back blathering on about how rubbish it was skiing in Scotland and how he'd only had 3 days in the last 3/4 seasons and then how he was skiing Kicking Horse and all the rest of it instead and it was soooo much better. I'm not suggesting you're like that but frankly it strikes me some people manage to miss the most epic of conditions (and there were awesome weeks in those seasons) for whatever the reason may be.
I didnt ski in Scotland in the years you mention so don't know what they were like but I haven't heard they were that awful to be honest. The weather does seem to go in 10/15 year cycles though ... we've had a 2/3 decent seasons now and hopefully this one will be another
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I went to Poiana Brasov in Romania this summer (staying in Brasov - lovely town - about £10 one way/30 mins by taxi or catch the dead-cheap bus; try the amazing Residence Hirscher self-catering for £60 per night total for 2 - 4 people, with kitchen). REALLY nice, with the most atmospheric mountain restaurants I've ever experienced. The people are extraordinarily friendly and helpful, and there are some new hotels in Poiana. You can catch the train from Bucharest airport to Brasov (about £10 each way, 100 miles).
The ski area is too small for experienced intermediates - the Romanians go to Austria - but Poiana may well be ideal at the start of a ski career.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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CairnGorm Mountain's 4 day voucher books are on sale now that the early bird season ticket deadline has past, they work out at £25 per day and can be used on consecutive or non consecutive days throughout the season. Nevis Range also offer multi-day vouchers, if you pay slightly more you can get vouchers valid for 2 seasons.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It has been said that there are skiers, and those that go on ski holidays - and it's very true. The needs and wants of both groups can be very different.
If you like to go on a holiday and chill out, spend your sliding time cruising different groomers each run and having extended lunches in mountain restaurants, or lounge about on the deck for a while in the Sun then Scottish Skiing (and much North American for that matter) is probably not for you.
On the other hand if you want to try something a bit different, perhaps push your comfort zone just a little, then come and give Scotland a try. Perhaps esp so for those who are wanting to push on and move towards dabbling in off-piste. The Scottish Snowsport Areas are more aligned with the North American model of in or out of bounds than the Alpine on/off piste model, strictly speaking here it's a case of being within or outwith the ski patrol area.
On the one hand Scotland's detractors often say the conditions are often difficult, yet on the other hand put down Scottish Snowsports as not challenging enough for experienced skiers? But the first point actually gives Scottish Skiing merit for those wanting to dabble in off-piste, with often variable and challenging conditions and terrain to be found within the patrol boundaries.
It's a lot cheaper to get to than North America, but for UK skiers offers a taster for a different and wilder approach to snowsports, testing your riding ability for off piste conditions and doing so within a lift served and patrolled area. Plus for those that then want to venture further, Scotland has some of the most enlightened land access laws for mountain recreation anywhere in the world. Plus for UK skiers, no worries about travel insurance and the on/off piste, guided not guided, local advice debates that rage on here!
Indeed when I read some such threads on here my eyes glaze over, and I realise actually just how incredibly fortunate we are up here, a sense of freedom to enjoy the mountains, where skiing is part of life (or for some a way of life) not a holiday, a freedom to go skiing on a whim, to know that the snow is there waiting, not an hour away in the case of CairnGorm Mountain.
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Winterhighland, you make an eloquent case. I'd love to be close enough, and skilled and strong enough, to explore some of that terrain. But yes, most of us are "holidaymakers" and particularly when I was working and had to book leave well in advance, and with kids in school, it was genuinely quite difficult, even though we were living in Scotland (albeit far from the mountains). On the other hand, when we did a sailing holiday on the Caledonian Canal one Easter holidays we found a foot of snow on the Drumochter pass and the kids did wonder why we weren't going skiing. I do confess that the frequent sunshine, the vin chaud, the idiot proof lifts and the general easiness of it all is a big attraction of the Alps. Though a warm bundle of fish and chips hugged to the chest as you scoot back through the pissing rain to the coach in Pitlochry (I think it was) is more character-building than a fondue and cold white wine in a mock up of a cow barn in a pretend "genuine Savoyarde" village. 
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I think the OP will do well staying with Scottland.
I learnt to ski in small hills with rather marginal snow condition, and I didn't know any better. So I worked on it and dealt with whatever nature thrown at me. It wasn't till a few years later that I venture to bigger mountains. By then, I was skilled enough to actually ENJOY much of the big mountain can offer.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that one should keep the cost down and put in a lot of snow time during the improvement stage. Save the money to pay for lessons and a lot of ski days to pratice it. So when one finally shell out the big money for the mega resorts, one will be in a good position to appreciate it to the fullest. Even a "ski holiday" is better enjoyed by a more skilled skier!
(I'm contemplating taking up telemark. And I would certainly use that same strategy again  )
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I think the original poster can work out what suits him best.
From a practical point of view being a skier living in Scotland with a family it is fair to say that there are limitations.
The idea of nipping away for the weekend is attractive however I do find that chidren have all sorts of commitments that means that even in a good winter like last year you get away a lot less than you would hope as becuase of the vagaries of a maritme climate you do not plan far in advance. Much of my skiing is still done last minute without all my family. In spite of all the good snow at Cairngorm I still ended up skiing Glencoe (and Glenshee once) because it is easier to get too and I did not make Aviemore.
The original poster also says that the months he hopes to leave the caravan at Aviemore are Dec through March skiing perhaps xmas and half term now my own experience of Scottish snow is that good snow at xmas is relatively uncommon but good snow at Easter is fairly common. There is probably a lot better chance of decent weather then if the skiing is not good for other outdoor activities.
If I was to book a week off with the expectation of doing a decent amount of skiing I would plan to do it in Europe. If I was able to have a caravan based in Scotland to get weekends and hopefully the odd weeks skiing I would rather have it up for Feb through April than Dec through March.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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beeorchid,
Poiana Brasov is quite a lot smaller in size than Cairngorm or Glenshee & gets less snow (than Cairngorm at least). It also has a smaller uplift capacity than 4 of the Scottish ski areas! If you are going to ski in Europe for a better experience, I don't think you'll find it there.
pam w,
I lived in Aberdeenshire 1981 - 92. One of my first memories is the 2 feet of snow making moving into our new home rather tricky in Jan 82. In 84 or 85 I missed a whole week of school because the temp never rose above -13C and the road past the house was blocked. The lowest temp seen on our outside thermometer was -22C. The car was parked over a mile away in the village the whole time. Compare that to last winter: car in village for only two nights, lowest min -17C (my parents still live in the same house). I skied regularly at the Lecht then Glenshee all those winters and definitely skied an empty but fully open Glenshee in April 1990 on a wednesday school sports trip. I also skied the Lecht on New Years day one year & we only just got out. They closed the road shortly after, for 3 days! Glenshee is usually the first ski area to shut as it doesn't hold the snow well. I think I skied more than 10 weekends a season for 5 years. It was certainly cold and windy on occasion
I know the forecasting and information was very sketchy back then - you phoned and the answerphone message always seemed to say 'some fresh snow on a firm base - roads open' or 'lots of fresh snow on a firm base - roads currently closed but will be opened soon' but I'm glad my parents got me up there so often
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what...snow, oh yes - I'd forgotten those phone messages. Not super informative! We'd have managed more if it wasn't for the kids - the littlest was too small to ski at the time.
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FAQ
It's just that sometimes the snow cover can be a bit iffy, and sometimes it can be blowing a hooly! 
