 Poster: A snowHead
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Is a more flexible boot meant for a more advanced or a novice skier? I have a pair of Nordica Easy Moves with a flex index of 45. Is this a good flex for a intermediate skier? Is this a good pair of boots?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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the higher the number the stiffer the boot the higher the performance
45 is a very low flex rating and is a boot really designed for a light weight beginner to intermediate skier, the EasyMove was really targeted as a comfort type boot for people who wanted their own boots rather than rentals
on average recreational boots range from 60 or 70 up to 130, what is right for the individual really depends on body weight, height, ability and technique. a strong but light skier with good technique can often bend a much stiffer boot than a heavier skier who does not have good technique
hope that helps
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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IMO, Flex rating has little do do with actual ability of the user, just percieved level. For sure higher speed will mean a boot is easier to flex, however variences in temperature have such a significant effect on stiffness, that it practically negates using this scale as a guide at all.
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Also how well do they fit? I found it so much easier to flex a correctly fitted boot when compared with my old ones which had volume issues around the ankles and were over-tightened.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ok thanks! Would the Lange Concept Speed be a better boot? I'm not sure what the flex rating is. I think ill return the EasyMoves, I'm not sure its what i need.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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WisconBackCountry, without wanting to give you too much more to think about, return the easy moves and get to a boot fitter rather thna trying to guess.... fit is far more important than flex, a good fitter can adjust the flex of a boot to suit you if needs be, but the fit must be right in the first place
if you pop over to Epicski.com you will find a USA based forum where there is a list of recomended fitters all over the US, whilst it may sound like more money, the initial outlay will be repaid many times over with the enjoyment you will get form a well fitted pair of boots
good luck getting sorted
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Thanks, will do!!
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Oh by the way, how expensive is boot fitting?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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WisconBackCountry, In the scheme of things i.e. boots lasting you several seasons it's money well spent. Lots of places fit for free when you buy the boots from them but you won't usually be getting any discounts.
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What is the problem of having boots with too much flex? My boots flex index is 50- 70 I got them when I was poor intermediate but have progressed to early advanced skier.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Glen Charman, Possibility of over flexing the boot can cause damage to the achillies. Also a boot with such a flex rating is likely to be made of a poor quality plastic, not great for the lifespan and wear and tear on the boot. That said, for the price would probably been fine for someone not wishing to over commit to the expense of higher priced equipment, flex rating, for me at least is a poor way to judge and shop for equipment, weight and build are a way more important factor, as is the available flex in your ankle. Old school instructors seem to be obsessed with skiers having boots they can flex, even if they don't have ankles that will allow them to do so.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Old school instructors seem to be obsessed with skiers having boots they can flex, even if they don't have ankles that will allow them to do so.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, thats a really good point, we have had clients who have had their boots butchered by a well known verbier ski school as a means to achieve better flex and when i watch them ski i thought their ankle flex was almost non existent and making a boot softer wouldnt be a good thing for someone with restricted range of movement / stiff joints. is this what you are alluding to?
i have seen a few methods of determining range of ankle flex but dont know if there is a scale for good bad or indifferent range of movement. warren smith has a static drop test along a wall which doesnt really take into account height etc
I was thinking you could use an iphone as an inclinometer to check how much dorisflexion you can manage. when would you say someone has "restricted" ankle flex? 5 , 10 degrees 20 or ???
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skimottaret, Depends on alot of factors, build is the best indication, however not 100% certain. A handshake too, if that hand is all wobbly and mobile, likelyhood is that the foot and ankle joint are too, again not in all cases. A strong firm hand, resistant to a squeeze is neutral and a rigid one, would elude to a flex issue, the person is likely to be small and stocky with flex issues, again, not always.
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You know it makes sense.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, With much better boots and foot beds my boots at the moment don’t have foot beds and I struggle to feel my little toe edge (that may be lack of ability on my part) would I find much improvement to my skiing. I’m trying to justify buying new boots 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, with myself i feel like my calves and ankles have stiffened up over the last couple years but i have more strength in my ankles if that makes sense..
i guess if i am hearing you right no point putting a strong person with poor range of movement in a soft boot. It would be nice to have a rough idea on what is "poor" rang of movement so you dont give someone duff advice, i had one guy the other day very rigid in the ankle and he was straight away talking about getting new softer boots but i would have liked to had a look at his range of movement.
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, It's pretty difficult to accurately measure range of motion, you need tools and stuff, however it's basic geometry so i'm sure you will work something out. The average boot delta angle + 10° is what you are looking for as a minimum to get the boot working properly, now wait and see how many people have this range of motion, you'll be shocked. Are you listing my friend? You know who you are......... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, 10 degrees sounds small but will be interesting to check this out... I think i should be able to come up with a little test that doesnt need special tools.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, 10° is the required amount of free flex needed to use the energy rating/resistance of the boot. ie 130kn boot through 10° or 14° if using Lange.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, cool, ... that makes sense that 10 deg of flex is the design range movement of a boot at a stiffness rating...
if i am following this correctly a skier with less than 10 deg dorsiflexion will be unable to fully flex their boots so going soft would be bad in that case... i guess you guys would check plantar and dorsiflexion and then set someone up by adjusting forward lean and or using heel lifts to get the ankle joint in the right static position and then adjust delta angle until COM was correct. thinking back this is how CEM and Andi M did my alignment but now just making sense to me...
i am getting all geeky on this and checked my dorsiflexion. i recon i am 27 deg on right ankle and 23 deg on left and my plantarflexion is 48 degree and 40 which would indicate that i actually have quite good free flex and being relatively strong should be okay in 150 flex boots which so far so good have been great.
5 minutes on wiki pedia and i see that 0-20 is a std range for dorsiflexion (15 degree is typical) with plantarflexion being 30-50 (40 typ)
I just remembered that we discussed this a few years ago http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=31014#743286 and i think i might start a new thread to summarize some of this stuff. I am hoping to come up with some simple simple tests to determine range of movement in clients so that I can intelligently comment on boot stiffness...
I think too many instructors tell people to soften their boots and may be causing injury or not addressing physiology... be good to have some quick and dirty in the field tests to check for this stuff as well as knock knees/ bow legs...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, Nails on their collective heads, nice one fella. Now we can move on to thermo properties of plastics and the resistance ratings, start reading ISO 1043. And you my little plagiarist friend. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, i will leave the design of boots and thermoplastics stuff to you, that is a step too far in my geeky quest for knowledge and i had far too many years of reading stuff like that for work 
but may have a look at some dorsiflexion with clients who dont seem to flex their ankles....
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for anyone else not sure what SMALLZOOKEEPER, and skimottaret, are rabbiting on about...
this from the mighty interweb; Dorsiflexion is the movement which decreases the angle between the dorsum (superior surface) of the foot and the leg, so that the toes are brought closer to the shin. The movement moving in opposite directions is called plantarflexion.
Put more simply: it applies to the upward movement of the foot at the ankle joint.
It occurs at the ankle.
The range of motion for dorsiflexion is indicated in the literature as 15 degrees maximum in the majority of subjects tested.
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shoogly, What's literature?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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shoogly, I never did the reading thing, too much bollox to get through before anything interesting happened. Life's too short for curriculum.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I tried warren smiths static drop test and could only do 165mm and not the 200mm min but has this test any relevance
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Dorsiflexion, much more complicated than just bending your foot up. Its measure depends on what position the foot is when you measure it.
Non-technical: keep the foot straight as you pull it up.
Classically it should be in sub-talar neutral, but that's a whole other debate as to what that actually is, can it be found accurately and is there any point in it?
But I am at the risk of digressing into pedantry so will stop now.
(yes the point of lack of ankle ROM is a good one)
Regards,
A lurking Orthotist.
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sabreboy, i would agree that it is a difficult thing to do correctly or accurately, be interested in you view on the validity of the dorsiflexion testing i did.
what i did was to sit on an office chair with wheels, put my foot on a big hardback book, i used an inclinometer app on my iphone and held this against the front of my shin where the tongue of my ski boot would be. then moved backwards until the shin was perpendicular to the floor. transferred the inclinometer to the book and slowly tilted my foot upwards until my heel started to come off the book.
would this be an okay measurement method? i am hoping to be able to do this with clients if need be and dont want to have to have any special tools and dont need to be accurate just repeatable, i dont pretend to be a boot fitter or have any knowledge but would like to be able to say, hmm you have poor, ok or good flex in you ankles and you boots are too stiff, seem okay or are too soft. Or, you just suck and keep practicing.
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You know it makes sense.
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Glen Charman, Don't know how working with mm helps, dependent on hight, tibia length and other factors, angles are what are important.
skimottaret, I have a series of documents showing ways to accurately do this, need to dig them out, it's bloody difficult to do the exercises and tests if I remember righty, will speak to our foot surgery dude soon see if he can resend them to me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret - Probably not the best method (I am a little confused about your method). Photography can be useful in getting repeatability, get the subject to dorsiflex as much as possible in the same way (either against a wall or with the foot being held) and make sure the foot is not escaping into pronation (turning in) or supination (turning out). Then measure the angle reached in the photograph using a goniometer. Not a perfect method, but may be easier to repeat without specialised knowledge.
It's a subject that medical professionals spend some time being taught, and some never master it. The repeatability of this is also very difficult. It may be that a general classification of dorsifleixon may suffice for your needs? Stiff = below 10 degrees, Normal = above 10 degrees. (Just an example of numbers as I am not a skiing expert and don't know what range of motion is really needed for different boots.)
SMALLZOOKEEPER - I agree about the difficulty of doing the measurements accurately.
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Poster: A snowHead
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all i was doing was trying to ensure the bottom of the foot was perpendicular the the front of the shin and then measured the dorsiflexion angle with a gadget.
sounds like the prefered method is to use some force either by standing and flexing or holding the foot, i was just opening and closing the joint without any additional force. I dont need accurate stiff normal and flexible is fine but dont understand what the typical range is and how the angles listed as typical were measured. i am guessing forcing the ankle with body weight when standing would be greater than laying down and just moving your own ankle.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, You need to make sure the pelvis stays over the mid foot to measure this and that the heel maintains pressure without moving the forefoot to fulcrum. Forget the lying down method, unless your skiers ski on their backs!!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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with the leg bent and testing the soleus muscle i would like to see more than 10 degrees... 12-14 depending on the boot and we use the dorsiflexion available as one of the factors for deciding the boot in the first place.
the other thing which needs to be considered is the gastrocnemius (the long calf muscle) tested with the leg extended... this is often the tighter of the two and can have quite an effect on boot comfort... often he foot will pronate to try ad counteract the tightness in the calf muscle and when you prevent it form pronating by putting it into a ski boot then a false forefoot varus is often seen
anyway enough of this...back to my beer
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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CEM, Go on Colin spit us out a few more technical terms. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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so standing and weight bearing is a better method? and less than 10 degrees can cause problems that need to be addressed
if you had someone with poor dorsiflexion would you go for an upright boot and large boot ramp angle?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, Yes totally to all of that, dump the spoilers, ramp it up to Feck, thermo wrap it and keep it stiff boyo. Yes Yes, measure standing, back and heels flush against the wall a benz ze Kneez ( and ankles if you can.)
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skimottaret, and remember shout at your clients all day, "Shoulders and Nose in front of the toes!!!!!"
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skimottaret, But don't let them bend at the waist. Stick a rod up their asses. ooohh Missus.
Bye off to Scandie land for the weekend, some snuss and Ice Hockey. Be good.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, that snuss is nasty a$$ sh*t, enjoy the hockey
I recon my final method will be to do the warren smith drop test but using an iphone as an inclinometer and work out the dorsiflexion that way... simples...
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FAQ
