 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Er barely 6cm - which would explain why the bootfitter last year exclaimed "My God you have no ankle flex"  AND I do CEM's calf stretching exercises.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, What is an "overly stiff boot" ? Mine don't flex at all but I can ski fine.
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eng_ch, havent seen CEMs stretches but i use three stretches that has really helped. stand on a stair with only your toes and ball of the foot on the stair. with knees bent sink your heels down and hold. the second version is to do the same with straight legs and no knee bend. THe third is the old press against the wall with one leg back. For me it stretches different sections of the calve.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman very astutely spotted a lack of ankle flex in my right foot (the result of getting run over as a kid) when I was doing plough-parallel demos last week. IIRC I can do about 25cm on my left foot, but about 8cm on my right. I'm doing stretching exercises, but it's not going to overcome the basic problem 
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rjs, no forward flex at all 
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I would say that most skiers don't suffer from a lack of 'natural' ankle flex and that for many boots will be the cause of any restriction.
Red or Yellow boots are generally worse 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, I do both of those but do the stair one with straight legs only normally and, according to CEM's sheet, the facing the wall one with bent and straight back (stretched) leg
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, Are those figures correct? I just tried it, went down to the point my heel was just about to lift of the ground with back and shoulders touching the wall. I managed about 15 cms and looking at the amount of ankle flex the interior angle between my shin and foot is a lot more than 45 degrees. For a 30 cm drop the it seems my ankles need to flex at a freakish angle, reckon 30-40 degrees, can't imagine a below 45 degree interior angle between shin and foot.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rjs, no forward flex at all |
Of course not, they are race boots.
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You know it makes sense.
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not feeling like working at all this afternoon i just tried the same test with boots on...
they already have some forward flex but i could only get 11 cm before the backs came up. in skiis i could get more leverage and increase the angle.
When i put my legs straight with knees agains the wall letting the toes come off the ground i could get 16 or about halve of my range of motion without boots on...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, I see, I'm doing those exercises every night. Thanks for the link, interesting read.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, not at all, the pleasure would be all mine. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, I was being deliberately provocative. Plenty of people do use boots that are too stiff but you are at the stage with your own skiing where you maybe ought to be seeing things as a bit less black and white.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rjs wrote: |
| skimottaret, you maybe ought to be seeing things as a bit less black and white. |
Im not sure i am following you, I am not saying lack of flex is soley down to one reason. I agree that it isnt B&W and a lack of ankle flex can be a combination of too stiff boots, too stiff ankles and mostly poor technique of sitting back and bending at the knee as opposed to the ankle.
I did find it interesting to find a simple test in which you can clarify if it is you or the boot. Rob's situation was interesting to hear about and i definately have a bad habit of weak right turns which might be in part due to a lack of flex in my left ankle. Too many times i have read hear about people rushing to get new boots as there old ones "were too stiff". might just be a lack of fitness and flexibility....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rjs, When wpold somebody need a boot stiffer than their level of ability?
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skimottaret, I'm suggesting that you not be so bothered about achieving visible ankle flex for yourself.
You are going to be training in Tignes surrounded by people on race equipment, don't go there with too many firm ideas about how they are using their kit.
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| Quote: |
| might just be a lack of fitness and flexibility.... |
and strength comes into it too, presumably, and technique, to pressure a short, sharp, flex into the boot? I make a habit of watching the ESF instructors' ankle flex, which is always impressive, even when they are standing at the bar or on a draglift (their butts are often rather impressive too, but I try to lower my gaze to the shins). Is this technique, strength, or the kind of ski boot?
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skimottaret
bear in mind that boots are designed to offer support for the ankle to help cope with the forces built up whilst skiing. Ankle flex tests in the boots on dry-land will not be very representative for this reason, if they did bend alot then they wouldn't offer much support when actually skiing.
There are two ways to view this:
1 in too stiff a boot, no matter how soft I am with my ankles the boot simply won't flex.
2 in too soft a boot if I do soften my ankles I will feel completely unsupported (falling out the front) and hence will stiffen ankles to compensate, thus compromising ankle flex.
Solution...find a boot somewhere between the two!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, ankle flex is very important but by the same token for truely great skiing (especially in short radius turns) you must loosen up and open those ankles!
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rjs, I am preparing myself for some serious humiliation on my first go at some gates in December.  Hopefully i will learn a few things there but this thread really wasnt to do with preparation for race training, just something i stumbled upon. I put down my figures because i found the difference between the two legs interesting and in common with a few others.
pam w, quite right, definately strength, technique and boots come into play along with balance and posture.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
skimottaret
bear in mind that boots are designed to offer support for the ankle to help cope with the forces built up whilst skiing. Ankle flex tests in the boots on dry-land will not be very representative for this reason, if they did bend alot then they wouldn't offer much support when actually skiing.
There are two ways to view this:
1 in too stiff a boot, no matter how soft I am with my ankles the boot simply won't flex.
2 in too soft a boot if I do soften my ankles I will feel completely unsupported (falling out the front) and hence will stiffen ankles to compensate, thus compromising ankle flex.
Solution...find a boot somewhere between the two!!! |
I agree but how can you roughly quantify your correct boot stiffness without actually skiing in a different boot. My "dry land" test in boots perhaps didnt really show anything useful, I just did it out of curiosity.
SMALLZOOKEEPER i would be interested to know how you determine the correct level of flex/stiffness in someones boots. Is it soley down to weight and skiing ability or is there some relationship to the persons "free" flexing ability when not in boots that you utilise?
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easiski, not sure about being a freak, but that is a bit weird that together you have less flex...
haven’t done the trigonometry but I suspect that the shorter you are the smaller the ankle drop will be..
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, I think my choice of words could be rather extreme, you are not a freak! Just out of curiousity, from looking how much do you estimate the ankle flex to be for you?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm surprised CEM hasn't been along to tell us about his deep indian squat yet...........
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, We test dorsiflexion on everyone, similar to the above description but we use a ski and by eye to be honest. A ski boot is designed to have 10 degrees of flexion/resistance, we check that each client can flex the boot to deformation( the clog bellows out). This is only possible at room temp. The thing to bare in mind is that the most common plastic used by manufacturers will stiffen by a factor of 5 between the temperatures +15 to -15. Therefore a boot of a flex 100 will become around 500. So by that statistic, all of our boots are too stiff some of the time. Warren is well known for his ankle flex theories, i have never met him, but get 20 clients a year who come back from his courses with the claim "Warren says my boots are too stiff." Softening boots is way easier than stiffening them. Weight is an important factor as is height, although relative as too is ability and speed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That is what he said about mine 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fragglerock, What do you think?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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easiski, said
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18cms flex in both ankles separately but only 16 in both together ....am I a freak???? |
I suspect that's quite common, and probably means something happening in the hips. Or your knees knocking together....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I found doing the drills warren had us doing a lot easier after I had the bolts taken out of the back.
I think there is no doubt the Diablo fire was the right boot for me, and the race version is a little too pro! Fortunately mass makes up for skill in some ways so I am ahead of the game there!
They did take my big toe nail last year, but I was lazy getting my foot right back into the pocket of the first day and I think the damage was done then. They were fine for the rest of the week.
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skimottaret, excellent topic. The problem of limited ankle flex is magnified by the fact that ski boots have built in forward lean. The built in lean eats into ones range of flexion. Example; if the boot has 5 degrees of lean, and the skier has a max of 5 degrees of forward ankle flexion, just standing in their boots eats up their entire range of ankle flexion, and there's none left for pressuring the front of the boot while skiing. If the lean of the boot is greater than available ankle flexion, the heal can actually lose contact with the floor of the boot, which affects the ability to balance efficiently.
I'm waiting for boot fitters to come in and offer their compensation techniques.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 24-10-07 18:36; edited 2 times in total
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| mrtoastie wrote: |
| skimottaret, ankle flex is very important but by the same token for truely great skiing (especially in short radius turns) you must loosen up and open those ankles! |
Quite agree. When I refer to ankle flex I am referring to the whole range of movoement in both directions ie from a fully open ankle (calves on back of boot ) to a closed ankle (shins on front of boot).
You have highlighted the most common misconception in skiing regarding ankles (ie that they need to be flexed forwards all the time). Not got time to elaborate further, but just like the other skiing joints we should be looking to use a full range of movement in whichever direction allows us to stay strong and balanced while 'doing what we need to do' ...
ops
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, thanks for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense and adds clarity to the picture... I have to say my 6 year old lange 120's are a hell of a lot stiffer than my new lange 120's so i recon you are right about plastic composition making all the difference
PisteHead, hard to guess the angle standing up but i dont think i get even close to 45 degrees prob 50 or 55 from the floor to the shin
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| skimottaret, excellent topic. The problem of limited ankle flex is magnified by the fact that ski boots have built in forward lean. The built in lean eats into ones range of flexion. Example; if the boot has 5 degrees of lean, and the skier has a max of 5 degrees of forward ankle flexion, just standing in their boots eats up their entire range of ankle flexion, and there's none left for pressuring the front of the boot while skiing. If the lean of the boot is greater than available ankle flexion, the heal can actually lose contact with the floor of the boot, which affects the ability to balance efficiently. |
Not to mention the sheer agony of trying to further flex your ankle when it's already at full stretch capacity in "neutral" position. (And no, I don't wear high heels - well maybe about twice a year)
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skimottaret, Out of interest I flexed each ankle in isolation standing away from the wall leaning forward to use what little body weight I have and the flex was greater. The way body weight affects the amount of flex seems to tie in with the comments I read awhile ago about how taller heavier people have mechanical advantages when skiing especially in situations requiring the body frame to be stacked.
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FAQ
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