 Poster: A snowHead
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CDA (Compagnie Des Alpes) and the Canadian group Intrawest have signed an agreement for the development of a second resort site in France. A 2,500 bed complex is to be built at Flaine. It is scheduled for completion in stages between 2008 and 2012...
The first partnership agreement between the two companies was signed in 2000. The Arc 1950 village above Bourg Saint Maurice in the Paradiski domain, a 3,800 bed complex, is well on the way to completion. The first section of the village, totalling 1,400 beds, was finished at the end of 2004, with the second part of the village, a further 1,550 beds, scheduled for completion in two stages in 2005 and 2006, ahead of schedule.
According to the CDA their figures for the current six month exercise to end March are "as expected", with only Serre Chevalier performing badly, snow cover having been well below seasonal norms. The CDA points out that current returns are being boosted by land sale and lease agreements such as the Intrawest partnership and further property developments within the Paradiski domain (unlinked to Intrawest).
Over the 2003/2004 financial year CDA turnover reached 372.2m euros, with net profits of 29m euros.
Intrawest Les Arcs
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 16-04-05 7:39; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Do these guys publish the skier densities they're targeting? It's pretty clear (to me) that CdA are chasing very high skier numbers to get the return on their lift infrastructure investment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's a double pay-off for the CDA - increased skier density on the slopes using the lift infrastructure, a land lease/sale policy to boost their annual revenue. Local authorities are unlikely to demur as they will gain from increased taxation income, private resort businesses from the increased sales potential. You have to assume that someone neutral is overseeing the environmental and planning issues, but where big commercial interests are involved.... 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
You have to assume that someone neutral is overseeing the environmental and planning issues
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... or assume, on recent evidence, that someone who ought to be neutral is doing nothing of the sort.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Exactly, the deals will start coming thick and fast I think. Mind you, Flaine might stand the improvement 
The choices are becoming starker though, you can take the CdA "vision" with high skier densities and "modern" lifts or, something more like here, some drag lifts and character.
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I wonder if the Flaine development will improve the tower blocks? I would rather stay in Samoens.
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Samoens is a rather flawed proposition though, very little of the accommodation there is convenient for the lifts. Fantastic mountain town though of course.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidof, although I would agree that close up the Flaine blocks are at the very best 'hideous, viewed from the slopes, they blend in quite nicely. I don't think an Intrawest development would.
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| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| davidof, although I would agree that close up the Flaine blocks are at the very best 'hideous, viewed from the slopes, they blend in quite nicely. I don't think an Intrawest development would. |
Helen, I would invite you to take a closer look at, for example, the Mur Pignon on Flaine Forum or the fireplace in the Hotel des Lindars. As I said, bauhaus architecture is not everyone's taste but a lot of thought went into these buildings. Anyway I'm persona non-grata in Flaine so it is moot for me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm persona non-grata in Flaine
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davidof, You can't just leave it like that! Come on, tell all 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Traditional mountain villages for me and a low lift capacity in line with bed capacity. That way the mountain traffic should be ok with a view to lifts queues and skier on piste density. But I can understand the villages wanting bigger and therefore more potential income..
But as to whether these could be regulated properly...well, as the comments above say, not likely with the sums involved.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Quote: |
You have to assume that someone neutral is overseeing the environmental and planning issues
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... or assume, on recent evidence, that someone who ought to be neutral is doing nothing of the sort. |
Yup, precisely what I was implying, as can be seen when you take my quote in full context...
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You have to assume that someone neutral is overseeing the environmental and planning issues, but where big commercial interests are involved....  |
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You know it makes sense.
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ise, I had a hire car when I was there so that probably colours my view, and if I had had the kids with me on that trip I might have a different view.
davidof, Never been to Tate Modern, but a gather it is very much like out Baltic Centre here in Newcastle and I would not put magnolia on that. I am also a fan of the Angel of the North and the Byker wall, but not square blocks on a mountain side. I did not see the blending in affect that others do when I was there in January. The whole place seemed too artificial for me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Belle Plagne has multi-storey blocks but in chalet style shapes and clad in very dark timber. Close up, the place is nothing too striking architecturally but better than bare concrete. IMO. Certainly most visitors reckon it is the most attractive of the purpose built parts of La Plagne. But see it from a height and a distance and it fits into the scenery surprisingly well in that it appears to be a traditional village. Certainly better than the monstrosity that is Aime La Plagne.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sat 16-04-05 9:16; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| maggi wrote: |
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I'm persona non-grata in Flaine
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davidof, You can't just leave it like that! Come on, tell all 8-) |
Oh it is not of major importance. The Director of Tourism doesn't like small, independent websites writing about Flaine and didn't care for what I had to say. He seems (at least in 2002) to like a lot of control in what is said about the resort... he also preferred masse tourism through Tour Operators rather than independent travellers. I suggested it was an outmoded marketing strategy routed in the 1980s (I'm beginning to sound like David Goldsmith now) and that independents researching information over the web were the future rather than the bucken-and-spade brigade, but what do I know? It was he who told me they were going to wood clad the buildings coz the billies don't like them.
Anyway a lively discussion to say the least. The guy had bad attitude to guests (like me) in my opinion. I had heard that the lifties had been to charm school - but certainly not the folks in the tourist office.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Quote: |
You have to assume that someone neutral is overseeing the environmental and planning issues
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... or assume, on recent evidence, that someone who ought to be neutral is doing nothing of the sort. |
There is a lot at stake... but developments such as the Espace Diamant have been held up on environmental grounds so if there is enough pressure. I was talking to a water resources expert who said the CdA's plans were just not realistic in terms of sewage treatment and water consumption, especially when they want to divert rivers into reservoirs for snow canons. One head of a French environmental agency has also received veiled threats if he makes too much noise about the developments - he was told by a mystery phone caller that the roads into his office were dangerous and he could end up skidding into a gorge if he didnt' allow more developments including road improvements.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
Oh it is not of major importance. The Director of Tourism doesn't like small, independent websites writing about Flaine and didn't care for what I had to say. He seems (at least in 2002) to like a lot of control in what is said about the resort... he also preferred masse tourism through Tour Operators rather than independent travellers. I suggested it was an outmoded marketing strategy routed in the 1980s (I'm beginning to sound like David Goldsmith now) and that independents researching information over the web were the future rather than the bucken-and-spade brigade, but what do I know?. |
If IntraWest are building 2500 more beds then it rather looks like he was right doesn't it?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
One head of a French environmental agency has also received veiled threats if he makes too much noise about the developments - he was told by a mystery phone caller that the roads into his office were dangerous and he could end up skidding into a gorge if he didnt' allow more developments including road improvements.
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Has this man identified himself and been able to report his fears to the police? If it's true that criminal activity is linked to these developments I think the ski community should know about it. Where did this report emerge, davidof?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ise wrote: |
If IntraWest are building 2500 more beds then it rather looks like he was right doesn't it? |
Yes it appears that way.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Has this man identified himself and been able to report his fears to the police? If it's true that criminal activity is linked to these developments I think the ski community should know about it. Where did this report emerge, davidof? |
He told me about it, there is no report. Honestly there is very little the police can do about such threats and very little they could do to protect you if someone decided to carry out such threats but it is not an isolated incident.
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davidof, I stayed in Les Lindars so I am well acquainted with the fireplace. I spent my first ever skiing holiday there ( and the second one)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| Anyone know how 2500 new beds compares with the existing resort size and where the new development might be located? |
I asked the question on Skipass, and the response was "Pierre Carrée". Apparently a new 4 star hotel is planned there as well.
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On the resort map (can't link directly) there is a Col du Pierre Carrée vers domaine de Vernant 1854m - roughly midway between Hameau 1800 and Fôret 1700 and a little higher than both. I assume it's going up there somewhere. Another hotel would be good for Flaine - I think it only has 3 at present.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kuwait_ian, I found the following but the figures for Arc 1950 contradict each other - 3,800 is mentioned but then two tranches totalling 2,950. So it would seem that the 2,500 bed Flaine development is certainly smaller than in Les Arcs but how much smaller I am not sure:
The first project signed in June 2000 between Compagnie des Alpes and Intrawest, which led to the creation
of 3,800 beds at Les Arcs 1950, is now being finished ahead of schedule: 1,400 beds were completed at the
end of 2004 and 1,550 will be delivered in 2005 and 2006.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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StanBowles, thanks for that but I was really wondering how 2500 new beds compares with what Flaine has now before Intrawest enlarge it?
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Certainly better than the monstrosity that is Aime La Plagne.
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At Easter a group of us spent quite a while gazing into the distance at Aime La Plagne from our chalet balcony, dressed in shorts, basking in the early spring, early evening sun, sipping fresh cold beer...................aaahhhhhhhh. Whilst it is not "beautiful" in the traditional sense, it is the most striking of landmarks and has almost come to symbolise La Plagne. It will be interesting to re-assess it in 20 yrs time.
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You know it makes sense.
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StanBowles, Erna Low (the UK agents) wrote before the development was built:
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| The development, currently budgeted at £174m, will provide 800 residential units with 3,500 beds, a spa and swimming pools, plus restaurants, cafes and shops. |
And later:
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| The village is being built progressively in phases and is due for completion in 2008. When finished there will be a total of 800 apartments, ranging from studios to four bedroom apartments |
I understood there to be three phases involved.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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3500 extra people at peak time is a lot, there will be a couple of thousand more beds with developments round the Massif as well. Links to Sixt are to be upgraded which will be another hotspot if anyone fancies a punt. Along with the projected lift up from Magland so most of Geneva can ski there it's going to be busy 
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Poster: A snowHead
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ise, I thought the Sixt and Magland links remained conjecture rather than definite? A lift from Sixt back into the main ski area would make that a very nice spot but it's been talked about for years hasn't it? Are there any firm dates?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The last I heard I thought the land for the Magland link had been bought but it seems to have gone quiet. But a lot of it could well be hot air.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ise, I saw quite a lot of discussion on the French Grand Massif forum about the Magland link this season but difficult to know how definite it was. Of course, CDA would have a real interest in it if it brought more lift revenue. It would also be handy if it brought people to within a few metres of the projected joint development with Intrawest although most people renting apartments there would probably want to bring their car. However, of course, while Flaine is one of the nearer resorts to the rest of France, Holland, UK etc, that last stretch up to the resort can be quite a problem. Because of the bowl, you have to drive up high in order to drop back down to 1600. Having a 'park near the autoroute and get a lift up' option would give more flexibility and ease a lot of problems in snowy transfer days.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ise, Where will the Magland link run ? Having seen the level property prices at "bottom end" of PdS may now have to look at Grand Massif
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Newbie50, You're way too late, half of Essex already has stopped looking at the PdS and started to buy in the Massif. Which is why we're leaving, Les Gets is unspeakably awful and I don't want to see it repeated outside my front door. They've already driven prices to ludicrous levels and the restaurants to pastiches of Macdonalds.
StanBowles, I think you're missing the point about the Magland link. Ski stations do more than cater for traveling punters. The Magland link would make the Massif around 45mins from Geneva and be the closest and most snow sure station for anyone from Geneva. That's the business they're chasing with that lift, holidaymakers really don't come into it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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ise, Yes indeed. My post was not intende to be a review of the business logic of any Magland link. I understand that it is day and short-stay visitors that it is principally aimed at which is why I talked about more lift revenue. My post was focused on any relevance of the Magland lift to the CDA/Intrawest development which, while not being the main logic of any Magland link, is the topic of this discussion and nonetheless will be an influence on CDA thinking on lifts since it is such a significant investment. By the way, going off-topic (!!), I have just checked out and enjoyed your snowslider site. What do you make of Zinal? As a regular visitor to Zermatt I have often wondered about Zinal but have never been.
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StanBowles, I love Zinal, we've bought some land there and are building on it. Zinal is the other extreme of places like Les Gets or what's now happening in the Massif. For me Zinal is the way skiing's supposed to be.
I'll be in Zermatt the week after next actually.
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ise, Can Zinal slopes be seen from Crans Montana across the valley?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ise, Have you had the chance to ski Grimentz on your visits to Val d'Anniviers? Again a place that I've been intrigued by. It sounds like a nice village with the ski area offering something worthwhile but I am not sure how much is north-facing there or in Zinal?
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FAQ
( Actually need to be careful about writing what I think given how much time I need to spend there! ) 
