 Poster: A snowHead
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On a different thread, kevindonkleywood wrote:
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It seems that the problem with any small scale 'boutique' handmade product is that of consistency of the product that exits the workshop.
They may well be a good ski but it is highly unlikely that the skis from the same range will all ski the same if they are gluing and clamping the laminations together with hand spring clamps as suggested by the website pictures.
Some things are better made by hand in a folksy workshop littered with wood shavings and some better made in an industrial press with a controlled pressure and temperature for me skis fit the latter.
But it may not be consistancy of performance or technical quality that are the qualities that an individual is looking for in a ski, maybe they need to express themselves through the product they choose. |
On the other hand there are quite a few skiers that swear by the quality of boutique / independent manufacturers such as (on TGR) Moment, ON3P, DPS, PM Gear, etc, (on snowheads) Whitedot Freeride, Faction, High Society, etc.
Would you buy boutique skis? Why? - to express yourself or because you believe they have equal or higher quality compared to mass-produced ones? (eg because more of the ski cost goes into materials than in marketing).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I would, prefer to support the small guy working at his dream, if the quality is good. As pointed out, getting consistent product can be an issue. But pleased about this, make's each product induvidual, but getting what you want perhaps not so much. I really have spent a great deal of time watching these micro production companies, seen many come and go and not 1 to my knowledge that has ever really made it. Many now are using factories that specialise and make these things for many companies, we can all pretty much these days, with a modest investment say go to a factory, give a shape and construction and get it made, provided we get the quatities.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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First off, I'd be cautious about throwing around build problems as being unique to boutique manufacturers. Yes, some have their problems but I've seen rubbish from larger manufacturers as well. Any conversation here is about failure rates and comparative q/c rather than one sector being the repository of all badness and the other being the repository of all virtue.
Why did I buy boutique skis? I wanted a fat ski with tip rocker and camber underfoot. Some of the boutique players got these to market faster than the majors. It is also a really, really good ski. I also liked the idea of supporting independent business people. It matters to me where my cash goes and, having it go towards some guy in a barn is preferable to the alternatives.
I've had and also seen a variety of build quality problems. Mine were dealt with promptly and efficiently but I've seen other people get badly messed around. This coloured my view of things a little and I will be a little more cautious in my next purchase.
Not really sure I would class Moment as a boutique now, you can get their stuff in Ellis Brigham.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| I really have spent a great deal of time watching these micro production companies, seen many come and go and not 1 to my knowledge that has ever really made it. |
I might be wrong about some or all of these as I don't know their history, but: Movement? Line? Moment? (as per gorilla's post). Armada? Black Diamond?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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horizon, Sorry I can't see these being boutique skis, can you better define?
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I would and have bought "boutique" skis. The arguments in favour are, I guess:
1. you can speak to the guy who owns the company to talk about the skis and resolve any issues
2. some boutique companies are genuinely innovative in terms of materials used, shapes offered etc
3. you get to look rad in the lift line
arguments against:
1. quality control can be an issue (but not necessarily)
2. can be hard to try before you buy
3. too many boutique companies don't really add anything other than funky topsheets and rarity value
4. the guy who owns the company might turn out to be a bigger tool than the Rossi rep who wouldn't warranty your B2s 
i think 4FRNT are a great example of a boutique company that have moved on - there was a good article about them in Powder last year. they have an interesting model whereby their athletes are almost partners in the business
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, that's the point. They're not boutique skis now, but they used to be so they "made it".
Movement - "Manufacturing High Quality Products - Created in 1999, the brand has been marketed in 2002, after 3 years of research and development." - from their website
Line - "K2 Sports is the parent company of Line (success breeds buyout!)...Another one of the freeride-founding ski builders since 1995". (Quote from exoticskis.com) So a successful boutique - turned significant producer
Link to website showing early production here: http://lineskis.com/our-story
Moment - "Moment has grown from an idea in 2000 to a full-fledged freeride and freestyle powerhouse based in Reno, Nevada USA making several thousand pairs of skis in 2008, hoping to double that number in 2009." (exoticskis)
Armada - "Started around 2002 with names like Tanner Hall, JP Auclair, JF Cusson, Julien Regnier, Boyd Easley, and Anthony Boronowski. " (from exoticskis again)
However, I don't know if all of these had microproduction to start with, or subcontracted production to someone else. Still, the design (and presumably overall QC process) was theirs.
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Boutique has always been the place to get the cutting edge - do anywhere else offer full carbon layers like PMG/DPS do?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If making it is going from shed status to having your national ski team use your stuff and being sold in EB (EB FFS!) then Moment definitely qualifies. Having kicked the tyres on the Ruby but not skied it, I was surprised by how well made and finished they were.
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Do Icelantic count? If so I bought some because they were going very cheap on here  having said that I'd heard of their reputation and have been pleased with them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kevindonkleywood, yes - maybe "indie" is a better word
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Arno,
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"indie" is a better word
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I would agree with that
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You know it makes sense.
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Hmm, still need help, let's take BD, big company, used Atomic to build their skis fro years then set up their own factory in China. How does this, for example make them indie, boutique, too cool for skool?
If you simply mean; small production, exotic concept brands, i get you.
Anyhow, just buy Black Crows Navis or a Dyna Legend Pro, simple enough.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, as an long-time owner of legend pros, they are great in many respects but there are skis out there which are easier and more fun for fat desk-jockeys like me
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arno, or for people who can demonstrate technical finess and varied technique
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DaveC, to be fair, i think my skiing has improved loads during the time i had the LPs, although my technique is probably better described as variable rather than varied 
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Arno, Get a Navis then.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, no need - i have a full quiver of boutique/indie skis
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Yes - the small indie companies seem to make skis that perform, rather than skis that sell (Ie. Dynastar scrapping the XXL's). Also I can be a pretentious lady's front bottom and like to stand out 
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| Yes - the small indie companies seem to make skis that perform, rather than skis that sell (Ie. Dynastar scrapping the XXL's). |
Dynastar might have removed the XXL from their line up.
But they have replaced it with the Big Dump - which is a really big ski.
With out a shadow of a doubt Dynastar have some of the best build quality around.
And along with Movement and Volkl they are also a proper skiers company - supporting skiing at all levels, from world cup race to free-skiing.
Its total bull to claim that indie ski firms have done all the innovation as well.
Just look at the Salomon 1080, Pocket Rocket, Volkl Explosiv, K2 Four, Bandit XXX or Volant Spatula.
Some of the most inovative skis of the early 2000s - and all of them made by big ski manufacturers long before every other dude was making skis in their garage. More recently the Rossi S7 or K2 Pontoon have been amongst some of the most progressive shapes that you can buy.
For sure some smaller ski firms are making great skis. DPS and Faction seem to have really good quality - but other small brands I would avoid like the plague. The only 3 pairs of skis I have seen from one american indie manufacturer have all been delaminated... (brand name withheld!).
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Yes - the small indie companies seem to make skis that perform, rather than skis that sell (Ie. Dynastar scrapping the XXL's). Also I can be a pretentious lady's front bottom and like to stand out |
What did you buy in the end?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap, Don't get me wrong I love Dyna - in fact both my current skis are Dynastar (was just the first example that came into my head), but Indie companies obviously don't have to satisfy the shareholders with increasing profits so are able to just make the best performing skis they can (until the company goes bust 5 years down the line lol). Obviously that's not to say every Indie company is ace, but if I had the cash to actually build a proper one up, 90% of the skis in my 'dream quiver' come from indies.
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That's a fair point. Rossi were on to the small side cut and tip and tail rocker thing before anyone else. Clearly innovation isn't the sole preserve of smaller ski co's and I wouldn't want to suggest it is. What has happened, in some other cases, is that indies seem to have got their product to market faster. I'd guess their product development cycles are quicker in some cases.
I think the Spat is a more interesting case in some ways. Atomic made a few hundred pairs and then sat on the patent for the shape. Had they chosen to do something else with the concepts immediately and/or enforced their intellectual property rights then the skiing world could be a rather different place. Perhaps it isn't fair to speculate why this happened but you cannot help but suspect conservatism.
Incidentally, I now have a (brand name redacted) pair that are intact and seem nigh on bulletproof. But yes, I've seen and skied some dross as well. I had an interesting chat (on the superbowl col of all places) with a Finnish guy about the durability of another well known US indie brand's stuff. He had a strangely familiar story of delams but pointed to the manufacturer standing behind their product.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Atomic / Volant never really sat on the original Spatula shape - its just the ski world was a very different place in 2002, if anything the market wasn't ready.
When K2 brought out the McConkey inspired Pontoon (2006/2007) just about the only other company that was seriously playing with similar shapes was DPS, and even then they couldn't make them properly.
For sure the original DPS Tabla Rasa was revolutionary for its time (2002) - but apparently you could only ski them once or twice before it exploded into several bits.
Yup - There are some great little ski firms out there making some nice skis in smaller batches.
But did they really changed the ski world that much ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wasn't the Rossi S7 a couple of years behind a few of the indies doing multi point sidecuts? It's just a thinner Armarda ARG/Lotus DPS138, and I'm sure there were more middle ground hybrids before the S7. Can't remember well enough to be sure, but I seem to remember seeing and trying the S7 in it's first season and thinking "meh, this has been done better already". PM gear did the bullet nose tip the year before and DPS did it in the 120 years before that.
I've killed two mainstream manufactuer skis and my indies have held up fine, too. For a bit of balance, the Atomic Powder Plus and Rossi Axiom(or similar), were the first mainstream pow skis and they were pretty innovative. The thing is, fat pow skis are at the extreme of the market. It's common sense that boutiques can push individuality and big brands are more interested in selling whole rental fleets and just increasing their brand recognition by having a pow ski presence for the big names to be able to ski.
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I think the indies are an example of what is achievable in an internet enabled world. They leverage the interest of enthusiasts and engage directly with their target market far more competently than the big boys can, have more direct sales models and generally seem more responsive to the market. The flipside of course is that they'll never have the traditional marketing, cost efficiency or channel clout of the big boys who can dominate stores with poor product (Salomon foam core skis anyone?).
If nothing else they are something a bit different and a way of a "tribe" recognising each other. I was riding a lift in the US with a pair of Factions on and the patroller who was with me after a bit of general chit chat started unprompted pointing me toward the best stashes. When I aked him how he knew they wouldn't beyond my ability he pointed at my skis and said "typical tourists don't ski skis like that".
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You know it makes sense.
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From what I read I get the impression that many folks like their indie/boutique skis and respect the companies involved. Is this the nature of the beast though? Does a smaller company with a smaller range just HAVE to produce great products to stay in business? A huge mainstream company can risk its reputation with the odd mistake and still recover, but if a small company makes an error in what is a higher proportion of its product range does it risk its reputation mor?. Do smaller companies therefore have to produce a higher quality product on a more reliable basis than their larger competitors and hence garner a reputation for the production of good solid products.
N.B. I've gone for products above as this could be the case for more than skis.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, damn that looks similar to our factory 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| scotia wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Yes - the small indie companies seem to make skis that perform, rather than skis that sell (Ie. Dynastar scrapping the XXL's). Also I can be a pretentious lady's front bottom and like to stand out |
What did you buy in the end? |
Will be Moment Bibby Pro's, but I have to wait for my student loan to come in a few weeks before pulling the trigger lol.
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