 Poster: A snowHead
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Having looked at a few new skis lately and in particular at a pair that had no camber, I began to wonder why there is one at all?
I understand that when the ski is pressured it creates a reverse camber enabling you to carve a line, but could you still do this if they were flat skis??
As it would appear that most skis have a camber there is probably a very good reason for it.....but can I think of it at the moment....no
Please help because until I get the answer I cannot get on with my work.
thanks
Rich
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oi Oi Savaloy, Camber gives spring and rebound to the ski, think of leaf springs.
when you stand on a cambered ski it actually becomes flat, if it had no camber it would go into reverse camber immediately.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spyderman, surely only if you were standing above a hole or over fairly soft snow - would that happen on the majority of bashed pistes?
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Megamum, So glad you said that...because thats what I thought, but did not want to look even less knowledgable than I already am!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The reverse camber is vital for all river side dwellers to keep the goats out of your sock drawer 
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Spyderman, surely only if you were standing above a hole or over fairly soft snow - would that happen on the majority of bashed pistes? |
Yeh because they are already partially 'loaded' when they are running along a flat piste (at least that is my understanding).
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Megamum, The camber helps distribute the load along the skis length, without it the load would be considerably greater under the foot.
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Spyderman, i thought that was the main point - the camber helps distribute the load along the ski's edges so you get better grip
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| Megamum, The camber helps distribute the load along the skis length, without it the load would be considerably greater under the foot. |
That sounds to me like the answer I was after...thanks very much...back to work unfortunately
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Also, the spring effect helps keep pressure on tips and tails; this helps keep them in contact with the snow.
Useful on a piste, not so useful in deep snow as no contact with the snow is lost.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Curses. No one had posted after scotia while I typed that.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Spyderman,
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Camber gives spring and rebound to the ski, think of leaf springs.
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 I don't think so. The elasticity of the ski does that.
Arno, Mosha Marc,
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the camber helps distribute the load along the ski's edges so you get better grip
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the spring effect helps keep pressure on tips and tails
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Let's just think about this. Even on my burliest skis (190 FIS GS) I can squeeze the ski middles together using my thumb and index finger. So the amount of weight being spread is broadly equal to that force (divided by 9.81ms^2). Which is really, really not very much.
I am going to propose that maybe camber is simply a result of having the ski formed in such a way that it is already stressed when flat and gives a more progressive flex when moving from flat to negatively curved in a turn?
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| under a new name wrote: |
Spyderman,
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Camber gives spring and rebound to the ski, think of leaf springs.
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I don't think so. The elasticity of the ski does that.
I am going to propose that maybe camber is simply a result of having the ski formed in such a way that it is already stressed when flat and gives a more progressive flex when moving from flat to negatively curved in a turn? |
Which is exactly how a leaf spring behaves. When used in say a car the spring is already under load just by carrying the weight of the car. It's natural shape is more curved. Elasticity is a materials ability to stretch and deform and return to its original shape, which is exactly how spring behaves.
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| I am going to propose that maybe camber is simply a result of having the ski formed in such a way that it is already stressed when flat and gives a more progressive flex when moving from flat to negatively curved in a turn? |
i don't really know what i am talking about but i suspect that this comment is also "disproved" by your squeezing the edges together test
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Let's just think about this. Even on my burliest skis (190 FIS GS) I can squeeze the ski middles together using my thumb and index finger. So the amount of weight being spread is broadly equal to that force (divided by 9.81ms^2). Which is really, really not very much. |
True, but if it's enough to keep the ski in contact with the snow then that's all that's needed.
Otherwise the tips would flap more than a fat lass in a cake shop.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, ummm, yes, exactly. But suspension leaf springs don't start out with positive camber and then move into negative camber. It's more or less camber, not a change in camber direction.
shoogly, are we talking alpine or nordic? I thought alpine. Though that makes me wonder whether camber isn't just a historical artefact.
Mosha Marc, I think you'd find that a non-cambered ski would behave in much the same way. In fact, having skied on skis where the camber had been well truly beaten out of them, I know this to be a fact. I have a pair in my garage.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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under a new name, I was suggesting the cambered ski would flap less than a non-cambered ski.
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Can we clear something up. A traditional ski is reverse cambered, one of the current range of cambered skis is just cambered, all this powder nonsense. Zero camber is a flat ski. Am I right, here?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| Even on my burliest skis (190 FIS GS) I can squeeze the ski middles together using my thumb and index finger. So the amount of weight being spread is broadly equal to that force (divided by 9.81ms^2). Which is really, really not very much. |
Yup - you may be able to squeeze the middle section together without much effort.
But it takes much more effort to actually reverse the camber of the ski (as would happen when you properly carve a ski on hard snow).
Basically the camber in a ski allows pressure to be built up evenly through out a carved turn.
At the end of the turn the camber then pops the ski back to its 'un-weighted' shape as you stop applying pressure.
Full reverse camber on skis helps keeps the tips and tails above the surface in powder.
But they obviously don't carve so well on harder snow.
Which is why many recent skis may have a rocker-ed tip and a small amount of camber / flat section under foot.
There are plenty of flat camber skis. The original K2 Coomba is an obvious one.
It can still be skied on hard-pack but has good powder performance (tips never sink).
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Haggis_Trap, I think you're confusing camber with stiffness and elasticity.
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^ Nope - its much easier for a ski material to quickly return to its original un-weighted shape if there is just a little bit of natural camber.
Stiffness is a measure of how much force is required to reverse that original camber.
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A positively cambered ski will exert much more pressure at the tip and tail of the ski during a turn, therefore creating good grip along the whole length of the ski.
A flat ski will have far less grip at the tip/tail during a powerful turn, making it far easier to wash out the tips if you move too positively into the new turn or try to ride the tails too much on exit.
A reverse camber ski will create the float wanted in the powder but will be impossible to 'drive' on a medium to hard surface due to the inability to get the tip to engage and then flex the ski.
A ski with positive camber will generate much more energy through a turn by creating more grip and thus letting you flex it more from its neutral position, meaning when the ski is unweighted that energy is released and can be used to accelerate the skier forward. A flat or negatively cambered ski will however make it easier to skid/slide/smear/mince a turn because of the reduced downwards pressure at tip/tail there is less resistance there when trying to pivot the ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eclectic, Got your positive and reverse the wrong way around otherwise spot on.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Can we clear something up. A traditional ski is reverse cambered, one of the current range of cambered skis is just cambered, all this powder nonsense. Zero camber is a flat ski. Am I right, here? |
Are you just being deliberately obtuse with the industry "standard" direction convention? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I don't believe I do.
Traditional camber = Positive camber
Rocker = Reverse camber
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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eclectic, Not as far as my understanding goes.
Traditional Camber = Negative/Reverse Camber. The opposite to the camber required to use the ski. When a ski is positively cambered the ski is bent to the create an arc suitable for turning the ski on the desired surface.
Cambered/Rocker Skis. Ski is built with a Positive/Camber already in the desired direction for turning the ski on the chosen surface.
Neutral Camber. A Flat ski.
These were terms we used way back when all this technology first became commercial.
It is the most commonly confused terminology on the market.
You call it what you want, but when we weight test skis to determine flex pattern for pairing we refer to the positive camber values. This the resistance when the ski is pulled to optimum side cut at 100% resistance. Tip, Tail and Waist.
ie. + camber flex 49/62/53.
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eclectic, I think the main problem is when people look at the new Camber skis they refer to them as being opposite or reverse to the traditional skis.
When really we refer to traditional skis as having a reverse camber, reverse to that which is desired when used.
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You know it makes sense.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I hear you, that all computes in my brain and I have been educated.
However.......the word on the street, in the marketing blurb and in industry magazine articles about the topic seems to disagree. We seem to have dropped the correct industry standard and started making our own definitions up.
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| It is the most commonly confused terminology on the market. |
That is for sure. Is it worth the minority trying to prevail with its original values and definitions when it, at best, merely complicates an already fairly perplexing topic??
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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eclectic, We don't sell skis anymore, many many reasons, some of which are these terms. I'm happy to except the definition of whom ever presents themselves to me, just as long as we know which way were bending from the start. I just remember being really confused when talking to people about Pontoons and Spatulas. I think it started there, when talking to our colleagues working for a product selection committee, they were confused, first saying how they were reversed, but not really listening to what was being said. Then they start telling others, cos it's cool to be out there testing stuff and being the first to talk about it. (Bollix) And getting it wrong, it's a simple way to explain to people that it's the reverse of normal, and i think that is what we're stuck with today. We just call them bent. (rocker/cambered) skis. seems to to fit the user profile!!!!! hahahahahahah
poo-poo my english is rubbish, help please.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| We just call them bent. |
Solution found. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I really can't believe that a sign convention when talking about unweighted skis is a major confusing factor as its absolutely clear what is going on when you see a ski of any type of camber in the flesh. I can even understand you having some technical or personal performance issues with rockered skis, & I believe that Euros born and bred on burly race construction skis may never wish to adapt or compromise but do you seriously believe there is no merit in the idea as part of the spectrum of equipment and styles that make skiing a vibrant sport?
EDIT : Obviously I have been hook, line and sinkered here
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 25-08-10 14:57; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haggis_Trap, sorry, sorry, yes, I think you're agreeing with what I thought I said higher up. And, it's a much smoother return as well.
eclectic, you (and SZK, I am afraid) seem to be confusing camber with torsional rigidity.
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fatbob, Fag
under a new name, Torsional rigidity is lateral, across the waist or diagonally tip to tail. Muppet, go make me some sausages.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, no, actually it's torsional rigidity, as in resistant to torsion, torque - or twisting. And that's what keeps the tips and tails biting.
My sausages on the other hand, are lovely and floppy.
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Haggis_Trap, has it worded best IMHO - flattening the natural camber of the ski will pre-stress it, giving the feeling of 'pop' as you un-weight. As you bend the ski against it's camber, it'll exhibit non-linear behaviour causing a progressive flex (ie 'progressively stiffening'). This is a function of the geometry rather than the materials (for small displacements at least). under a new name's nailed torsional rigidity. I think you can improve grip with greater longitudinal bending if you design anticlastic bending (caused by the interaction of longitudinally and torsionally oriented layers) into the ski by careful orientation of the glass fibre reinforcement. It causes lateral bending in the opposing direction (ie down and into the snow) to the longitudinal bending (ie up). I need a beer.
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