Changes to SCGB Reps' Off-Piste Rules

A snowHead

I received a letter from Ski Club of Great Britain today detailing some changes to the rules on where SCGB resort reps and holiday leaders on Ski Freshtracks holidays can ski with groups.
Quote:
"The policy for the terrain where reps and leaders can now ski off-piste states that off-piste skiing will generally be closer to the piste and only involve a short ski to return to the marked runs. What this means is that some areas you've been used to skiing with a rep or leader may now be 'out of bounds'.
To complement this, for those wanting to ski further afield the rep will organise a mountain guide or an off-piste instructor, with the cost being shared among the group. This can be done any day, where (sic) it used to be available only towards the end of the week."

Presumably this is a result of the ski rep qualification/liability debate (where's DG when you need him to comment?) wink

A snowHead

Interesting, so scgb reps are only going to be a little bit pregnant now?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

davidof, They're not all female - but I know what you mean Toofy Grin

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Bummer. Helffinafety rules - I'm glad I was able to get so much off-piste skiing with the reps in happier times.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Bizarre policy for an organisation which is supposed to understand the risks of snowsports. At little bit off-piste...? rolling eyes

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Sounds like a great opportunity all round. You ask the rep where's good. he tells you but then says for legal reasons he can't show you or come with you. You leave him "near" the piste then regale him with stories of your great face-shots in the bar later.

He of course is motivated to encourage you all to go somewhere he's not licensed et voila a freeskiing day for him wink

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Is this all to do with previous serious off piste accidents and liability claims? Please correct me if I'm wrong on that just that I seem to recall newspaper articles a few years ago going on about an accident in Aspen and hasn't there been at least one death? I guess the club has professional indemnity and public liability insurance but have probably found that the track record and general publicity of avalanche deaths (not related to SCGB) have scared their underwriter into imposing such restrictions. It's a shame but not a surprise.

After all it is free

Tell you want get a few more reps like Vanessa Cornborough and I might sign up for some off-piste ski club action. Laughing

Bode Swiller, I believe the Aspen thing got settled in the clubs favour, but looking through the annual report and the repeated mentions of the death of a snowboarder in Verbier last season, I wonder if the reps liability insurance has got a bit more specific...

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stoatsbrother, wow, I knew there had been a death whilst being "repped" a number of years ago (again, oddly enough, in Verbier) but hadn't heard about this one. What happened?

The Aspen incident (whichever way it was settled) changed things forever due to the adverse media.

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Predictable change of policy, their staff, (resort reps) are generally not qualified to lead off piste. Good skiers, perhaps, but unlikely to be qualified/experienced/insured as mountain guides.

snow reports

Perhaps the Club is issuing reps with "short skis"? No, seriously, I imagine that their liability insurer has determined a specific no of metres of acceptable "risk". Which is, of course, fails to provide any defence at all, as it does nothing to determine the suitability of the terrain, and the risk level.

AFAICR Insure and Go was one insurer that "used" to specify "insured within x metres of piste" for their public policies. I believe that they dropped it some time ago.

Imagine the scene, accident happens, rep quickly skis back to the piste, and directs emergency services, from a fully insured position.
Maybe we need a fly on the wall at the coming winter rep's training course.

You know it makes sense.

I wonder if this is going to mean less SCGB reps, as I know that the off-piste carrot is/was what keeps them motivated. Why else would they spend most of their days skiing with people who in the main are not as capable as them. Puzzled

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

also no doubt the scgb get pressure from the resorts not to take punters off piste and use local paid for guides instead. A bit short sited in my opinon as enjoying some off piste with the club attracts punters to resorts and I don't think "takes" business away from the local ski schools. Also think Dypcdiver, has a good point that off piste attracts the reps, unless they will now expect more free days with off piste guides paid for by the members. Either way less incentive to ski with the reps.

A snowHead

Do you think we'll start to see some (current) pistes left unbashed so that there will be off-piste conditions to be found within the piste structure?

A snowHead

Bode Swiller, No idea what this is all about really but the death of someone in Verbier last year gets mentioned three times in the annual report...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

FenlandSkier, In the US that already happens, see Utah for example...

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Does that keep the insurance companies (and therefore the new SCGB rules) happy in terms of not skiing off piste?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

David Murdoch, as I understand it there is fundamental difference between the USA/Canada and Europe in their approach to piste manaement.
In North America there is In Bounds and Out Of Bounds. All of In Bounds is patrolled and rescue if injured is free. Some if In Bounds is groomed. Lots of it is not. The groomed bit varies from day to day, and is declared on notice boards around the resort. Out of Bounds is wilderness and if you venture there you are on your own. The resort considers you now outside its responsibility.
In Europe there is no clearly defined Out of Bounds. There is On Piste (groomed piste) which is patrolled. All non groomed piste is called Off Piste (even if between groomed pistes) and is not patrolled. Emergency services will rescue from both On Piste and Off Piste. You pay for both, and the rate is (I think) the same.

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FenlandSkier, some pistes are already, if intermittently like that, Sache and I seem to recall Campunules(sp) in Tignes are ungroomed.

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"stop the brutal grooming" is one USA bumper sticker

After all it is free

Thank you stewart woodward, I had forgotten about those. Other resorts call them Itineries (or similar phrase).
On the Verbier map there are 4 such runs called Piste d'excursion/Itinéraire à ski.
I was never sure if they were patrolled or not. Is it clearly stated so for the Tignes runs?

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I have absolutley no doubt that Admins planned snowHeads ski insurance will absolutley cover all these area's and thus we need not worry about off/on guided/unguided in/out bounds Very Happy

In the future, perhaps Admin could offer to insure the ski club reps Laughing

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Do the SCGB really allow (unqualified) rep's to take people off piste ?
As the mimimum qualification to do this legally most places in Europe is an ISIA ?
Or do they get around this because they are technically a club ?

Either way it sounds very dubious to me.

The "little bit off piste" comment is totally insane... especially given thats where most avy deaths (statistically) occur.

snow reports

You know it makes sense.

Jonpim,

brian

A snowHead

A snowHead

brian, David Murdoch, stewart woodward, apologies: I was of course talking rubbisn - well: some rubbish anyway.
In Euope Black runs are not groomed. But they are marked.
The Grand Couoir run in Courchevel is clearly on the map as a Black run, and so presumably is patrolled like any other run.
So what exaclty then are Itinéraires? What is their status? And how do they differ from Black runs?
I understoood that those 4 Itinéraires in Verbier used to be Black (and so patrolled). But when they were changed to Itinéraire, the patrolling stopped.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

abc, pistes are made (relatively) safe. Any avalanche danger is removed (or at least reduced). They do not have crevaces or deep dips disguised by overlying snow. And if you are injured someone (the piste patrol) will eventually come along and find you.
Off piste is wilderness: it could contain any of the aforementioned hazards (and more). If alone and you fall and get injured, you could well be left undiscovered until the snow melts come springtime.

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In terms of rescue costs, I believe I recall that Monterosa includes on piste rescue in its lift pass (it may be an additional and small charge) but that off piste rescue is at your own cost (clearly decent off piste/mountaineering insurance required). I think other areas have a scale of costs rising according to how tricky or dangerous it is to get you to safety.

There was that sad tale from last season where the parents of two blokes who were killed were pursued by the ski patrol for the costs.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

David Murdoch, I understood the cost was mainly based on time: the main cost being helicopter air time. But an addition for trickinees would make sense.
My comment was intended to say that just because you were Off Piste didn't automatically up the rates. Rescue from some Black runs (steep and narrow) would be far trickier than flat open Off Piste.

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davidof, fair comment I think. Regarding the commercial operation bit, I think it's stumbled into a split personality - it partly has the feel of a commercial operation, an partly a mutually-owned club - because commercial operations ( such as the holidays) cross-subsidise other activities - albeit the commercial activity tries to be beneficial to members on the whole. I missed the point of Ski TV, though.

I think the 'X' metres thing will have to be defined further to the reps before the season gets under way.

I guess that in this litigatious world, tightening restrictions are inevitable. The sad thing is that, despite the shrill cries I have seen about the rep system in snowheads in the past, in practice the record does not seem to have been dire - and a lot of people had a lot of enjoyment through skiing with them. As with so many things these days, I keep thinking I was lucky when I was born, enjoying a freer life than I would now face as a member of the younger generation.

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I was also very dismayed to receive that letter. I am primarily an off-piste skier, largely due to the SCGB showing me that skiing more than 3m from the edge of a piste was possible. The Reps system always seemed to me a major benefit of SCGB membership. In practice though I rarely used it as such, as opposed to the Freshtracks holiday system.

I think the effect of this will depend on what "a short ski to return to the marked piste" means. Previously, when skiing with Reps, we've typically done off-piste runs back down a lift rather than take the neighbouring piste, so say up to 10-15mins. Things like the Magic Forest, Lavancher and American Bowls in Argentiere and similar stuff in La Flegere, or itinerary routes. As long as I've been a member of the club (about 6 years) it's always been the position that Reps cannot take groups off-piste on a glacier, stuff like that and hour long routes would be only done with a guide. The off-piste/sidecountry stuff the Reps have done has always invoved some basic mountaincraft and loan of transceivers as required - the first time I heard of such a device was with a Rep - i.e. they've been a good introduction to the discipline of off-piste skiing that wouldn't have come if just branching out on my own.

If it's now though "only say 5/10 metres from the edge of a piste" that removes any point of me skiing with a Rep. Reps acting as guide brokers hardly seems worth any part of the membership fee to me. Guides offices already will put together ad hoc groups on occaasion, and outfits like PisteToPowder do the same (and it seemds to me that more of those spring up every year).

I find it very ironic that the SCGB's principal objective (whether admitted to publicly or not) - of getting people to ski off piste at every possible occasion - will now lead directly to an area where they can no longer offer a service. I've already been a bit disappointed that their instruction courses pack up just when you start getting moderately competent. snowball has sounded off in the past about the absence of Expert(Gold)-only holidays. This now appear to be another step down-market.

Interesting point about what it will do for Reps numbers. The better Reps are principally off-pisters. If they no longer get to ski the off-piste stuff a day or two a week will they still be interested in wasting their holiday time on "cruise the blues" days?

After all it is free

GrahamN, Where's the American bowl? You might make the "Canadians" angry. wink

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