'Z' bends to 'S' bends

A snowHead

Prompted by [b]Fastman's[b] link in the other thread I've re-read his article about fear - which is always worth a periodic read IMV.

My goal for January is to get some lessons and start doing 'S' bends on robust red/redblack runs just like the nice 'S' bends I can do on blues and easy reds.

On an easy slope I can with total confidence set the skis on their edge and let them carry me round the bends - it feels great Cool

When it gets steeper self preservation still kicks in and the sharper points come back on the bends. I have the confidence these days to have a crack at, what I think, are quite steep slopes, inc. the odd short black on decent snow. However, can only do these because I know I can skid round the bends as quick as possible before I pick up speed and take a relatively non steep path across the fall-line with lots of turns put in. It's hard work, but I can get down and am OK provided I do it this way and stay within my confidence zone.

To do S bends on steep slopes will it be necessary to go faster or is this just a perception that is holding me back from trying?

Also, is there any shame in a perfectly controlled side slip down a black run that I have previously skied if it is littered with fallen bodies and unpredictable skiers that may mean I am forced to turn when I'm not ready to. That scenario played on on hols this year - I was ready to have a good crack at skiing the slope a second time to prove to myself that the first time wasn't a fluke, but I reckon there was coach party full of skiers who had clearly taken on more than they could bite littering it with bodies and unpredicatable skiing and, rather than add to the melee, to my embarassment Embarassed

I opted to side slip best part of the whole pitch. Said side-slip was text book - in control - neat, tidy, working safely round the bodies backwards and forwards, but it was not skiing the black for the second time - I still hang my head in shame Embarassed

.

A snowHead

Megamum, on a steeper slope you probably want to be using less of an edge angle and more controlled skidding to make your s-shape turns. A ski on its edge will travel much faster than a ski that is being skidded, so if you want to ski very quickly on a steep slope use your edges, but if you want to travel more slowly rotate your skis by skidding them (evenly all the way around the turn to make a nice s shape).

If you have the skills to side-slip a controlled falling leaf down a black run you're probably able to start linking turns. Just give it a go, but maybe wait and enjoy the scenery until the human litter picks itself up and the slope is clear.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Megamum, There is no shame in side slipping a black run and it is good skills practise, however as you improve you will find less need to do this.

The trick to skiing any slope with ease is to have complete control of your speed and path of travel...

If you understand how turn shape and skid angle affect your speed you can ski a steep slope at a very slow speed indeed!

First to turn shape. Have a look at the entry on turn shape in our glossary. http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/T.html

Remember that an S shape can be any size you want - make a small shaped S and you are in fact in the fall line for a fairly short amount of time (but it can still be an S not a Z if you have honed your steering skills)...
This is controlling the radius of your turn and you can find more information in the radius entry of our glossary of ski terms http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/R.html

Also remember that by making the S shape turnier you can control speed by turning more away from gravity - even against it if you turn uphill before starting your next turn. You can use this to ski a slightly larger radius but shed all your speed before making the next turn. (this was my get out of jail free card for a long time) You will accelerate in the fall line during a mediumish or shmediumish turn but can turn uphill until you almost stall... So it feels like a rollercoaster ride which can be a little spooky as you accelerate but when you know you will slow down becomes a nice 'swwooooooping' feeling... This is the concept of degree of turn and you will find more information here in our glossary under degree of turn http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/D.html

Now to skid angle
Also you can ski even a largish S shape by using a lot of skid angle in the turn(as rob@rar, mentions above)...
Just point your ski tips in to the centre of the circle you are skiing. The more the tips point away from the direction you are travelling in the slower you will go. (As you know from sideslipping where you travel down the fall line but your skis face across). So you can convert your sideslip into a slow S by adding some steering to it... Have a look at the skid angle section of our ski terms glossary http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/S.html

Now if you blend these together you can control turn shape - through radius and degree of turn, and speed - through skid angle... so you have the ability to control direction and speed at will which will serve you well on those steeper slopes

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Oh and a fun thing for you and the minimums to 'play with' on easy slopes, would be things like adding a backslider in to your falling leaf(sideslip going back and forth across the slope)... so you can turn uphill and slide back after sideslipping across the hill.... as you slide back turn around so you face the other way... repeat...

Also mix up your turn shapes and skid angles to get a good feel for your skis

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

imo you need to vary your turn size to gain more control and you can also try finishing off the turn more - by letting the skis continue on their arc uphill. This will slow you down.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Megamum, I think its also well worth while skiing the run you plan to try out quicker s type turns a few times so you get to know it a little first, this helps ALOT.

I got caught out big time thrashing down to Peisey on a red run which I had not done for 25 years, flew about 40 metres in the air befoe I realised I was going to fast, was a fun fall tho

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Megamum,

After all it is free

there are some excellent descriptions and demos of all this in Fastman's videos. And some very good progressive exercises.

rob@rar, david@mediacopy, to not use the edges seems counter-intuitive although I can see how less edges will allow the skis to pivot easier, at the moment I tend to think I turn on the steep stuff absolutely and totally reliant on the edges to stop me sliding down the slope at an uncontrollable rate of knots. I hurry the turns around as quick as I can to get past the fall line and then apply a 'muscles of steel' approach and a usually silent prayer to make those edges hang into the mountain. If nothing else its hard work!! Yes, the type of S turns I mean are those described by little tiger,

livetoski, I can see the sense in an exploratory run, but I wouldn't have though of it - ski it once and get down it as I normally would and then try it again whilst trying to tidy things up makes a lot of sense. Normally I 'get down' something difficult once and don't (want to Embarassed

) go back to it, but that means I don't learn anything does it?

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

rob@rar, You understand what I am doing - of that I'm sure,

snow reports

Surpised that no ones mentioned braquage/pivot slip drills

You know it makes sense.

Ooh, braquage, my favourite drill. Especially when practised for hours on end, as per Warren Smith. Very character building. Toofy Grin

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

spyderjon, Megamum,

Look at wide track steering in our ski terms glossary http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/W.html

The 'pivot slip' is just stretched over an arc... when you change from one turn to the other you do the pivot part and the slip occurs around the curve evenly...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Hi, Megamum. You've received good pointers here on the skills you need to grab control of your speed on steeps, without having to resort to Z turns. I'll just try to endorse and restate that advice.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what you're doing on gentle terrain, and why it's not working for you on the steeps. On gentle terrain you've learned how to tip your skis up on edge and let the skis do the turning for you. It's an effortless way to ski and turn, and as such it's great fun, as you've discovered. It's a form of carving, which employes the automatic turning qualities built into the wonderful shape ski.

Unfortunately, that means of turning also produces the highest speeds, so it's not a good turning technique choice for the steeps. You can get away with it on gentle terrain, because speeds will not get that high, regardless of the turn shape you ski, but as pitch grows, speeds gained when turning like that quickly get uncomfortable.
That's what you're experiencing, and it's why your impulse is to quickly pivot into a Z shape turn, to avoid the rapid acceleration the falline brings when the trail is steep.

You need to employ a different turning technique. It involves learning to skid through the turn, as rob@rar suggested. By doing that you can ski any turn shape you like, as slowly as you desire, and as comfortably as you wish. Just tipping and riding the sidecut of the skis, as you're currently striving to do on gentle terrain, will never provide even close to that degree of speed control.

Check out the links to skid angle and wide track steering in my glossary that little tiger provided for you. Learning those skill sets is what you need to feel comfortable, and gain total control of turn shape, on the steeps. I can't stress that enough. Tipping and riding the ski's sidecut is only one edging skill, and it provides limited control of turn shape and speed. YOU NEED TO DEVELOP YOUR STEERING AND SKID ANGLE SKILLS FIRST!!! Once you do, you'll view and approach any slope on the mountain with a whole new confident mindset. It's empowering.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Megamum, I'm sure you realise, but remember that the tilt or edge angle of your ski's will vary throughout your turn, so part of the skill is applying the appropriate amount at the right time - and developing the movement pattens you'll need to do this.

Perhaps the other way of thinking about the 'problem' is in terms of the outcome you want. You (presumably) want to ski steeper runs with good control of speed.

The first thing to do is choose the best turn shape and size for the slope at hand (I'd suggest small, rounded, finished off AND linked together) as it's this that influences your control of speed. You can then apply all the technical ingredients posted above to achieve the turn size and shape needed for the slop, and get the outcome you want.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

rob@rar, OK, my interest is piqued, and I'm debating whether to treat myself or whether to wait until I'm on a mountain and take a couple of 2 hour private lessons, it's never easy to know where cash is best spent Puzzled

. However, without all the facts I can't make up my mind. What days in September please? I had a look at the thread on the Hemel coaching, but there is a lot to wade through and it doesn't look as if a list days is maintained in the OP - a link to the right page with dates on would be useful. thanks

Everyone else, thanks for all the tips - boring night in hotel tonight, so plenty to look through here and think about. snowHead

You'll need to Register first of course.

Megamum, Monday 20th or Saturday 25th. Ski pass from 9am to 6pm, coaching from 9.30am to 4pm, plus video review afterwards (as well as at lunchtime).

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Megamum, thank you for starting up this very interesting topic - and what good quality replies you have received (no stupid ones either!).

After all it is free

rob@rar, thanks for that - I will def. think about it, it will only be 3 months before holiday and I need something to stand a chance of standing on the same bit of mountain as BMF_Skier and the Minimums Laughing

I had a look at the wide track steering picture - Got it!! I think I can see what this skidding thing does, it seems to be a little bit like a controlled sideslip guided into an arc, you move around, down and across the arc, whilst balancing the skis like you would in a side slip. That must require quite some degree of control on the weighting of the skis, but I can see how it would work and how it should be possible.

The odd thing about the side slip is that I can't do it if I consciously think about flattening the skis and about the process I am trying to achieve, but I can do it 'instinctively' - I just find myself side slipping wonderfully when I need to and it has just happened. I also think I must get close to this skidding effect when I am on some of the steeper sections, rather than putting in lots of turns I sometimes find myself making a turn and almost deliberately, but again almost instinctively, shedding loads of height by almost sideslipping around the turn as well as during the traverse (I try to use the whole slope if there's no-one in the way). I still chase the turns round too fast on the very steep bits (and def. try my best to lose lots of height on the traverse using a side slip), but on a moderate red (like the top of Portette in VT when its got no snow left on it) the shedding height manouevre works well.

I would certainly echo all the advice I had when beginning this skiing lark that side slipping was your 'get out of jail free' card, its invaluable however you use it, now that I can see this skidded turn I need to have a practice, I'm sure its something I can learn now I can side slip without problems. B.t.w. Isn't it wonderful that these days I'm interested in improving how I get down steep bits too, rather than worrying about being faced with them to begin with? I'm so chuffed Very Happy

.

is

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Megamum, on a value for money basis then for a mountain session summer skiing with Easiski at L2A is pretty damn good value. Grab a cheap flight to Lyon/Grenoble and camp at Venosc and it is a seriously cheap way to grab a ski holiday. You also get to have a summer holiday all afternoon.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Megamum, I can recommend rob and scotts Skills Clinic at Hemel, I have been at Hemel a few times when they have been coaching and you can really see the difference in peoples skiing after only a couple of hours

snow reports

livetoski,

Saturday 25th is sounding quite possible.........................

Off to check in on the HH thread

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

pam w, practice makes permanent! Although I don't entirely agree with that as I've managed to get rid of, or at least mask, most of my bad habits even if it has been a long and painful (and ongoing) journey.

A snowHead

pam w, rob@rar, Laughing

A snowHead

Zs to Ss keeps cropping up.

I think the fundamental problem is a lack of explanation during instruction. Snow-ploughers instinctively vary the width of their plough to keep their speed constant. But when they are taught to parallel no-one explains to them that their speed will vary through the turn. If you explain to people that they will get faster as they approach the fall-line, then slower as they turn across the mountain, it makes a huge difference. I actualy do this as a drill, getting them to say 'faster faster faster slower slower slower' as they go round the turn. Once you get them used to the way it feels, you can start to get them to use turn shape to control their speed, rather than the ammount of skid. On a cruisy blue / red start doing really big turns, & gradualy increase how far round you come, its good fun to do a huge fast turn and end up skiing back up the hill to an almost stop before starting the next big turn.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

There's some really good advice from Alan McGregor which I agree with.

Most people do Z turns due to a (perfectly natural) fear of facing down hill (in the middle of the turn) and the build up of speed this brings. So try Elephant Turns.

I use them all the time with the Z turners and they very rarely fail to produce S's. Loads of people will be able to explain them on here if you don't know what they are.

One thing though, if you're going to do Elephant Turns you need to do them (to start with) with an instructor or you'll get em wrong and they'll be no use. If you live near Chill Factor or Hemel or some other fridge you could ask the instructor to give them a try with you - I honestly hardly ever see them fail if taught right. You're intrcutor will start with a very slow (almost bracage) rotateing slide that, very quickly, will lead to S's turns of various rads

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Alan McGregor,

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Alan McGregor, well done, mentioning the different acceleration phases of a turn. It's that acceleration that happens when patience is used through the top half of the turn that intimidates people into doing pivoted Z turns. It's important to help them come to embrace and enjoy that period of acceleration. Part of getting to that point of security is coming to know that they have the ability to bail from that speed, or change their direction of travel, at any time they desire. It's the feeling of becoming a run away train, with no ability to slow down or alter direction that scares people into avoiding that acceleration period. The pivoted Z is just an act of innately driven survival.

Learning skid angle skills is a great way to overcome those fears, and gain an appreciation for the period of acceleration that happens through the top of a turn during an S turn. Skid angle can be used to limit the amount of acceleration that happens, so becoming comfortable with the acceleration can happen progressively, or it can be used to quickly dump the speed gained by increasing the skid angle in the bottom half of the turn. These are great stepping stone tools for skiers learning to do S turns on steep terrain. Confidence, comfort and newfound enjoyment with the roller coaster effect comes quickly via that learning methodology. I've watched it happen over and over, and enjoyed the gleam in the eyes and excitement in the voices of the students who I help discover this new confidence inspiring skill set.

Skid angle and turn shape work together, hand in hand, to elevate the confidence and competence of learning skiers. Turn shape alone, without using skid angle, does not generally provide enough tools to allow learning skiers to ski S turns on a pitch in comfort. It doesn't allow a broad enough range of turn shapes to control speed and route of travel adequately at all times, and it doesn't allow enough speed control during the turn shapes it makes possible to provide a comfort level for the average skier on various types of terrain.

Most intermediate level skiers would feel very intimidated, dare I say scared silly, skiing down a pitch without using any skid angle. By learning to add and vary their skid angle, these skiers can employ any turn shape they like in complete comfort, in accordance to their personal risk tolerance threshold. This ability to manage skid angle provides great confidence, as the skier now knows he/she can ski any line down the mountain that terrain, traffic or desire dictates, and the speed they travel is still under their complete control, not governed by the particular line they've chosen. It's a very liberating piece of knowledge, to know they have the ability to ski any line they desire in complete control and comfort.

It's quite amazing to watch students reduce their skid angles, gravitating towards carving, when they carry with them the knowledge that they have the skid angle skills to tone things down whenever they desire. Some people, when first considering this learning methodology envision setting skiers on a road to becoming terminal skidders. The reality is just the opposite.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Alan McGregor, Good post. The 'whoosh' into and just after the fall line frightens a lot of people (maybe even most). I get some students to utter a 'cry of joy' (in other words shout 'whee' or 'yahoo' or something) at the whoosh moment. It's amazing how it replaces their fear with enjoyment! Very Happy

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

easiski, The whoosh bit is one of the best parts - knowing you can head downhill but make a turn to get back in control.

After all it is free

Wayne, whats an Elephant turn, not heard that term before..

skimottaret, Ooo....great....... I didn't want to ask, but you're an instructor!! I'm guessing its something to do with the shape of the elephant or its trunk when raised into that classic lifted position

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

skimottaret, Megamum,

http://youtube.com/v/LS95MYHcy_I&feature=related

Elephant turns? well could be elephant freestyle Toofy Grin

Help!!

'Z' bends to 'S' bends

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees