Private lessons for young kids - is the benefit worth the cost?

A snowHead

On the back of the "How long does it normally take to teach 5 year old to ski?" thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=64011#1540937 I have been wondering whether in relation to teaching younger kids (say under 8 year olds), it is worth paying the extra for private/individual lessons compared to group lessons?

I should add that my daughter (now 5½) has done 3 weeks of half day group lessons in Switzerland and 5 or 6 half-hour private sessions in Hemel and can now comfortably ski blues and has started skiing reds (without reins…!) so the group lessons do obviously work. But, on the other hand, there were some tears in the first week of skiing which might have been avoided and I can't really assess whether her progress would have been quicker/better/easier if she had had private lessons?

Intuitively I feel that one-on-one tuition must be better for a young beginner compared to being part of a group but is that actually the case?

A snowHead

not sure there is a standard answer, most little ones learn well in a group once they reach a certain maturity level (cant remember what is is called but happens typically around 4 or so when they become less self absorbed) but crucially a SMALL group.. up to 4 is a good number IMO.

One on one for a half hour doesnt really give time to embed learning. I used to do regularily teach privates to under 8's but now do a lot of large groups , kinda depends on the kid and if there were tears probably would be a good thing to do some privates.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I think it depends on the child. My granddaughter had her first lessons last Christmas - one hour lessons, 1 to 1, with an instructor who had been recommended to us as good with kids. For her, it was definitely the right decision. She is actually a physically very competent child, and she was 6, but she is quite timid and easily upset. But all our own kids started in group lessons and were fine - even the 4 year old in an entirely German speaking class. I wasn't at all bothered about "speed of progress" (all kids ski better than their parents fast enough) but in terms of enjoyment I think they quite liked being with other kids. Seeing a good instructor with a group of little kids, going in and out of the trees, doing little jumps etc, going backwards, laughing at each other, it's hard to imagine anything better.

What DOES make me sad, and cross, is seeing small kids with not-very-competent parents taking them down stuff which is too hard for them. the parents can't control their line properly, they are often in front of the kids and too fat and idle to climb back up and help a fallen child - muppets. I swear I once heard a mother (English, of course) reprimand her little boy for falling over! Our French neighbours, who are very well off and could definitely afford private lessons, have put all their 3 kids through the ESF group system, on successive visits to their apartment. The older two are now in special racing classes, and have sometimes had to repeat levels when they fell short of the required standards. The groups have generally been quite big. They just accepted that that's what you do - and if they fail to reach the time required for their silver, or whatever, that's too bad.

We UK parents and grandparents probably fuss far too much!

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I think a small group of 2-6 children to an instructor is ideal at this age and not one to one.

We went skiing this year when my daughter was 5 and used Apeak in Montgenevre. The clocks changed the night before the first days skiiing and the other families forgot Very Happy

so she was the only one in her group lesson for the first hour. I thought "great" she will do well with the one to one attention but she didn't like being on her own with just the teacher and no others her age and cried for the first hour. As soon as the other children turned up she was fine. She was skiing happily down the mountain after a couple of days. I think her group size of 4 children was ideal. I think some of the ESF lessons with 10 or so in a group are too daunting for a child this age, and it there will be more waiting around while everyone takes their turn. My daughter is quite petite so being in a small group all the children could ride on the same chair (of chairlift) with the instructor which I found reassuring.

I don't think my daughter would have enjoyed skiing as much with just her and the instructor..she likes company of her own age and tries harder if she is with her peers. On her own she might be more reluctant.

My older child is less confident and might have benefitted from more 1 to 1 the first time he skied. As it was he learnt in a group of 8 and after a couple of shaky days started to enjoy skiing and survived a larger ESF group the next time.

Overall I think it is better to have more children than one with an instructor but I would avoid putting my children in for lessons with more than 8.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

there's no one answer to this buuuuuut.......

At the risk of making my own lessons sound boring it makes my heart bleed when I am teaching a smallie one-on-one and they are constantly gazing across at the group lessons, envious of the kids crashing around together. I really do believe that single digit aged learners benefit from a group dynamic and you can imprint that skiing is FUN WITH FRIENDS!

I teach both and clearly if everyone took private lessons it would benefit me financially but still........ Crying or Very sad

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So much depends on the child! We have friends with a confident and very athletic young daughter of 6, who does lots of dancing, and a boy of 8 who is the opposite, hates sport, not well coordinated, very short sighted and not good at mixing. It would be a disaster for them to have beginner lessons together, whether private or group, as little sister would romp ahead and make brother feel even more inadequate. they were asking our advice - and for him, someone like the instructor who taught my grand daughter would be excellent, as she was fun, but sympathetic and just firm enough without being bossy. A group of other 8 year old lads who were already good at stuff like roller skating and skateboarding would be awful for the poor lad -though probably not as bad as having his cocky little sister running rings round him.

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After all it is free

1556garyt, definitely had my share of the "crying mexican wave"!

not suggesting that group members are going to become those friends, realistically they'll probably never see each other again, but if the levels and groups are composed properly then I think you can get a good "team" feel over the 6 mornings. I would certainly expect my kids to want group photo's and be cheering each other on in the end of week race. It's more about the levels of fun and interaction (even, dare I say it, competition) that you can achieve between peers. It also takes away some of the "I want to ski with mummy" that can halt a morning, if they feel they're having fun in a group.

To pre-empt any comments on my private lessons I am certain that they also have a lot of fun Very Happy

but there are definitely some slightly wistful looks across the beginner slopes. As people have said above there will be some who will learn better in a one-on-one environment but I don't think anyone should go private as a default just because they want their 6yo to learn more.

(should also point out I only take a maximum of six in a group lesson which judging by some of the "snakes" you see might be a borderline private to some people Shocked

)

garyt - how many children have there been in the groups you have used? My daughter was in a large ESF group when she was 3 and all the children cried and set each other off. If you read my post above last time she was in a group of 4 (ESI - Apeak) and was fine and I don't think any of them cried.

As I said above the only time my daughter cried was the first hour before the others turned up when she was having a one to one lesson with the instructor. The others were boys and she is quite a girly girl so even though they didn't end up best pals by the end of the week my daughter was relaxed because she wasn't on her own with the instructor.

I think one to one is fine for adult ski lessons but not ideal for young children. I think the problems with groups occur when there are too many in a group and/or the instructors don't speak good English or are not good at relating to young children.

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Here is a vote for private one to one lessons. Mouth Junior turned 3 in Dec and in Jan he started one hour private lessons. Lesson one was spent in the childrens learning area where most kids would spend their first week. Lesson two he was taken up the chair lift. By lesson 5 he was skiing alone with instructor skiing backwards in front him. By lesson 7 he was following the instructor snowploughing down the blue runs.

End of week 2 of one hour lessons he was skiing competently snow ploughing behind teacher.
I could go on and on but by Feb he was skiing reds and by March had mastered parallels and even skied blacks in total control (and better than me).

You cannot beat a one to one for young kids. There is no hanging around and getting cold and it is totally focused on them and their abilities. Here is the final piece of evidence that private lessons work best (IMHO). Mouth junior at 3 years and 4 months

http://youtube.com/v/i-JhFTRX6N8

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[quote="pam w"]

Mouth, I'm properly impressed snowHead

skiing genes perhaps?

pam w, I totally understand and agree Shocked

I was indeed referring primarily to the pushy-parent end of the spectrum. I suppose it depends what the OP meant by "better"

if = "more conducive to the child being comfortable and enjoying the lesson" the answer is possibly.......

if = "able to learn to ski and progress more quickly" then I reckon not necessarily.

anecdotally this seems to be a fairly widely held view amongst instructors, but maybe there's a Verbier bias at work here wink

You know it makes sense.

I tend to agree with gilo - 1 on 1 privates for kids that haven't developed a specific love for skiing (they might enjoy it, but not directly skiing for skiings sake, which comes with more maturity) are quite demanding, and especially for longer lessons I find it a challenge to keep the kid engaged constantly.

It really does depend though on how the child is progressing - I much prefer teaching a group, since you can encourage interaction, games and challenges, and kids do work well with their peer group even if it's mostly in an independant manner in that group. Given privates tend to cost more, I'd write them off really. With unlimited resource, personally I'd try and split it maybe 33% private 66% group, because for a start there's only so much progress a five year old can make in one lesson - pushing them with privates is putting a lot of focused attention on the student without a particularly efficient return on it, and it's likely just less enjoyable.

I think the best option, and most difficult to set up, is arranging private group lessons, with a well recommended instructor and kids of a similar level. Given that's a bit unreasonable on a few levels, group lessons with a well reputed (for kids!) ski school is the best option.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

gilo, - "better" = happier. My original theory being that in a 1-on-1 environment the child can learn at his/her own pace, develop a better understanding with the instructor and not feel the pressure (or lack thereof) of the group dynamic - this should lead to a happier child?

A snowHead

1556garyt, I think there's more pressure - it's a lot more intense being left with the scary strange instructor alone than with a peer group that're doing it too. It definitely intensifies seperation anxiety, because there's no distraction from the seperation or "normalisation" of it as lots of other kids are without their parents. 4-6 year olds might not appear social in group dynamics (very focused on themselves and getting the instructors attention - there's usually a mass contest to see who can ride the lift with the instructor), but the difference between their individual behavior when in a group vs alone is really interestingly different.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

hmmm - in truth I would prefer not to leave my offspring with a "strange" or "scary" instructor, whether alone or in a group Confused

, but I do take your point...

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1556garyt, with the best will in the world there's no stopping 3-4 year olds being upset when being left by their parents Sad

Much more of a factor with never-ever beginners though, in fairness, and at that kind of level I think a private really isn't that effective - I can teach the very basic intro to 1 or 4 with pretty much the same effectiveness, usually actually easier with groups because the kids can watch each other and tend to be motivated in the fact "if they can do it, i can" type thing. Obviously the usual group lesson issues like one kid having a full on tantrum will disrupt a lesson, but, a good instructor with a good infrastructure behind them will generally have effective ways to deal with that kind of thing...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

My two sons went into private lessons together, aged 7 and 12, as the small resort we were in was very French and group classes would have been pointless. This was ESF and the instructor was a French lady in her 50's, who spoke decent English and - more importantly - was patient and made the lessons fun. For our children, in the circumstances, private lessons was the right thing. Had we been in a more mainstream resort with more chance of being in a group of English kids, and a great teacher, who knows? They now love skiing, have good technique taught in that first week of private lessons, and still speak fondly of that instructor.

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Where I work it really depends on one thing - what kind of experience do you want your child to have? If a child is in the kids ski school in a group lesson as a beginner s/he WILL spend most of the time in the back yard - dedicated, almost flat, children's beginner area - in a group of up to eight, using first the magic carpet and then the pony tow. There could be 4 or 5 other groups using the same small area. In a private lesson with me (I teach through the adult ski school, mainly private lessons, and mostly kids), your child WILL get to experience the upper mountain where Mummy and Daddy ski, will ride a chair lift (except perhaps on really bad storm days), and generally will have speed and direction control by the end of the 2nd or 3rd lesson, if not before. I have a number of students who have lessons with me after disliking the kid's ski school, and who now love skiing.
Once your child can ski it again depends on what you want to get out of the lesson - group lessons are dependant on the ability of the weakest student. However, teenagers generally enjoy the group dynamic much more than a private lesson since interaction with their peers is more important at this age.

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Mouth, Totally agree, he went from tears to terrific in a very short space of time, however, who is the most gifted?
Em or his teacher?
Maybe both Very Happy

After all it is free

Whether 3-4 yr olds are upset when being left alone by parents, I think, depends entirely on their upbringing. The Minimums were in day care nursery from the age of 3 mths and I never had any problems with leaving them anywhere.

Ski wise they were in group lessons from the age of 3-4 and have been so upto and including the last season, now they are 10 and 7 yrs respectively. Due to the fact that we are holidaying outside of school hols again next year we are going for private lessons for them for the first time. Last year a lack of punters meant they were at the top of mixed age and mixed agility course and I think they felt held back - both being quite prepared to have a crack at blacks and bumps (they have more guts and unrefined talent than I do!

In terms of private lessons for younger kids I think group sessions are a good idea - one on one lessons are very intensive and v.young kids I think have a shorter attention span. The format of a group lesson with games and breaks between each set of instructions and assessments that dealing with each child in turn creates I think favours the younger child.

Megamum, just because a lesson is private doesn't mean it is an intensive coaching session with no fun or breaks! Very small children learn through movement repetition (muscle memory), so the more they move and do, then the quicker they learn. Once they can ski independently, then put them in a group lesson because they'll gain more out of the social aspects than they will in an environment that is tailored to their exclusive learning style, needs and wants.

Oh, and cookie breaks are very important, if not essential.

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skinanny, all due respect, but you're sounding a bit like a sales pitch!

(sober edit)

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The private lessons we had last season were all about having fun, learning to ski and more importantly appreciation of the mountain which I doubt you get in group lessons.. His teacher would point out wildlife and things about the environment when they were on chair lift and would often stop side of the piste to look at something. Maybe we just got lucky with our instructor but mouth junior has an appreciation and respect for the mountains way beyond his 3 years.

It was worth every single penny and we plan to do the same next year...

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DaveC, and your point would be? Very Happy

What do you think I actually do? Little Angel

skinanny, that you're discussing the point with a bunch of other instructors and people that go to about every resort in the world between them, so talking one side of the coin or the other from an entirely personal perspective is a bit off, imo.

You know it makes sense.

DaveC, so you are really saying that I should agree with those who say that group lessons are best for really young children? Even though I know that from both a child development perpective and a ski instruction perspective that young children progress quicker in a one-on-one situation? Or maybe I'm not allowed an opinion because I have a vested interest in this sort of discussion?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

skinanny, I'm not saying that at all, but the whole "with me, in a private, your kids will be able to ski the whole mountain!" is a bit over the top isn't it? I'm not actually disagreeing with you, or the points anyone has made in the thread - you can see my thoughts above. My interests are just as vested, I just didn't phrase it like "well, you could come to Fernie and request me and your kid will be a pro racer rather than ignored in a group lesson", which is all I'm saying is a bit off.

A snowHead

A snowHead

DaveC, now I see where you are getting confused - what I said was that kids would get to ski the UPPER mountain (rather than just the back yard), not the WHOLE mountain, which makes perfect sense when you know that our main beginner area and all, except one, of our green runs are on the upper mountain. I never never said that if your kid skis with me they will be a pro racer, not did I say they will ski the whole mountain (I know I've said somewhere else that kids have got to be almost parallel before skiing blacks). What I do know is that often (not always) small children do get ignored in a group lesson situation, and often this is due to to the ignorance and inexperience of the instructor, so they are usually better of in a private lesson, unless all kids group lessons are taught by upper level instructors which I highly doubt.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

skinanny, yep fair enough! I think it really hinges on how good the instructor is for either lesson though - if you end up with a poor instructor in a private it's probably worse than a poor group lesson...

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

DaveC, but a poor instructor in a private usually has only one crying child, rather than eight! wink

But I definately agree with your point. Luckily, poor instructors don't tend to last too long - it's hard to make a living when no one requests you!

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skinanny, not how I remember my ESF-ish lessons when I was young... Smile

In fairness, it's hard to get a bad instructor, but excellent vs alright is a bigger difference to group vs private for sure.

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DaveC, agreed. Very Happy

After all it is free

1556garyt, I haven't read the thread so sorry of II am saying what others have.

We have 3 kids 8, 5 and 1. The oldest has had about 13 or more weeks skiing- which is ridiculous. He hasd private lessons aged 3- as this was all that was on offer in Val D'Isere at the time.

Since then he's always been in gropu lessons- which is a big advantage- because whatever the progress he's made he has been with other kids having a laugh. THey prattle on together- joke and generally monkey about. THis keeps them all happy.

The middle child has had very small group lessons- first with another friends child- the same age- then in what was just a very small 'group lesson' (just 2 of them' then again just him and a friend.

I don't think I'd ever pay for individual tuition for small kids. For adults or advanced race training if I thought a potential olymic gold (but no chance of that I'm glad to say).

For me and my kids skiing is about fun- with friends.

oh sorry just looked at your post to say that kids don't interact at that age. Well I have also skied with my oldest son many times- both just the two of us and with other families- much easier with other families due to the general prattling on and jokes.

We have skied both with old friends, new friends in the same chalet/hotel or just random new frinds from the TO ski hosting- perhaps not so stangely best behaviour from my kids in front of total stangers- worst with just me!

But that's just our families experience of about 15 weeks on the hill with kids. Others will be different. Why not try both and see what you think.

Group lessons are great for most children and they will learn loads and make great new friends. However some more cautious children may benefit from Private lessons and private lessons can also be very useful to supplement group lessons!

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garyT - how can you say kids don't interract and have fun under 6/7? What do you think they are used to doing at nursery/school from 3 upwards?

My daughter went to ESF piou piou at 3 1/2 - she loved interacting with the 2 other english girls in the group. It was the ski lesson that was the problem - class too big, weather very very cold/windy, most other kids french etc..

This year as I said in a post above my daughter was 5. She was miserable for the first hour with just the instructor. As soon as the other 3 pupils, all boys, arrived she was relaxed because there were others there her size, and was motivated to try her best to keep up with the others some of whom had more skiing experience. The ski school in Montgenevre organised a yeti hunt on the last day and my daughter didn't stop talking about the fluffy yeti with pink ski boots. From the third day we were skiing together as a family in the afternoons. I don't think my daughter would have enjoyed it /progressed more in a private lesson.

Maybe there are some children who are more relaxed with one to one tuition but my personal view is that my children have done best in a small group with a kind instructor.

Help!!

Private lessons for young kids - is the benefit worth the cost?

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