To counter or not to counter? That is the question.

A snowHead

This is something that was starting to be mentioned in the "Anticipation" thread, but is probably sufficiently important to be worth its own thread (and one that stands even more danger of mentioning Inner Tip Lead).

Following receipt of FastMan's DVDs on Angulation and Transitions I made quite a jump forward by working on creating counter at the start of performance turns. This got hips further forward and a lot more angulation than I had been managing previously. I did though end up falling onto the inside ski quite a bit, and falling back at the end of the turn as the skis jetted out, leaving me behind.

I then went on a week's course with philbo, who really wasn't happy with this countered position. After a morning mostly involving the Schlopy (aka Superman) drill, concentrating on using the hand on hip to drive the outer hip around the turn, my hip position was squared up quite a bit, and things were becoming quite a bit more stable.

So I carried on working with that concentration on the outer hip in odd technical moments through the winter, and training this summer has focussed pretty much on the same thing. On Monday we had the most focussed session on this yet. Just to get into the zone we started with a few runs just keeping the outer leg fully extended as long through the turn as we could. Then we added a projection of the inner hip forwards, and a slight forward movement of the inner ski at the transition. Finally we followed it with the opposite, projecting the outer hip forwards and pulling the inner ski backwards in the first part of the turn. The difference in feeling, and performance was striking.

With the inner hip projected, we get that countered position, and that allows the greater angulation it's designed to achieve. The downsides are quite substantial though:
- that slightly twisted position is noticeably weaker skeletally, and so was much harder to maintain in bumpy terrain;
- the hips were much more likely to drop to the inside of the turn and result in the body weight falling on the inside of the ski
- it was much more likely that the outer hip would lag a bit behind the ski, and result in getting aft coming out of the turn, so much harder to pull back centred at the transition (these two effects are also quite obvious in the dryland demo FastMan does in his DVD)
[Edit: oops forgot]
-with the twisting effect on the outer leg, there is a tendency to lever the ski tip up or to the outside of the turn, so reducing its effectiveness in making the turn and increasing the radius
[/edit]

With the outer hip projected forward, and standing much squarer on the skis, the angulation was harder to achieve, as our bodies are less well designed to bend sideways, but:
- the forces of the turn were waaaay more easily accomodated by the basic skeletal position;
- the projection of the outside hip forward kept focus on the outside of the body in that "stacked" position we always hear about, and resulted in the hip position being further forward, with the following further benefits
- the feel of standing on the edge of the outside ski was significantly enhanced, with a much more secure grip (I was skiing noticeably more one-footed)
- the hip stayed in front of the ski for a much longer arc in the turn, and so the jet out after the fall-line pushed the body forward rather than left you struggling to keep up with the skis
- we were much more stable in the chop, with the skis powering through it rather than being chucked about
- staying on the front of the skis throughout the turn actually resulted in a tighter turn as the full length of the ski was working throughout
- with much reduced inner tip lead Wink

the skis also felt as if they turned tighter as we effectively had a shorter "wheelbase" (that may not be a necessary consequence of the geometry, but the psychological and biomechanical factors contribute here to achieving/preventing the required geometry as well).

So, despite having been pretty resistant to the concept of the "square" position in the past, I'm pretty much a convert now - for this "piste performance" application. Narrow steeps, I'm still with anticipation, rotational separation and the rest of it. But if you're going for high performance carves, the default position should be basically square. (And apologies to all the coaches/instructors I've argued with about this in the past Laughing

.) The countering exercises in FastMan's DVDs were an important stage in this journey, and I doubt I would have got the hip projection stuff without doing the inner hip projection stuff first, but I'm not at all convinced it's leading in the right direction now. He does include outer hip projection exercises as well, but the clear implication is that it's the inner hip route that is the preferred one. I understand that the teaching of countering to achieve angulation, projection of the inner ski and the rest of it was an intergral part of teaching on old style skis. But modern skis do have much more sidecut, so will turn much faster with lower edge angles. The transverse forces are therefore much larger than with the straighter skis and angulation is much less required to balance those forces and keep us upright. Yes, there is a premium on having mobile hips with a lot of lateral movement - hence you see a heck of a lot of sideways swinging of the legs in warm-up routines, and it's quite scary quite how high some of the better skiers can get their legs.

For those of us at a lower level of performance, we will naturally find that twisting the torso allows a bit more angulation, so we will probably counter to some extent naturally - particularly as we're learning rotational separation skills for other aspects of skiing anyway. I think this will probably be more than enough, so teaching/coaching should probably focus on trying to square things up, once we get to this level, rather than encourage us onto countering to a degree greater than is really needed. It was interesting that philbo remarked after watching an "outside hip drive" run that I was actually getting more angulation with that than with the "countered" runs - and that was happening as I was much more confident in the grip I was getting from the ski and my body's ability to support the forces involved - and remember I'm not a supple, athletic 20-year old but a rather stiff 51 year old Sad

.

In the lists above, pretty much all those aspects are biomechanically and psychologically related, so it's certainly conceivable that once you get to a sufficiently high level of achievement you can reintroduce certain aspects, but at the level of mere mortals I'm fairly convinced that our natural level of countering is quite adequate, and probably overdone. Similarly, with the "outside hip drive" I found I was skiing very one-footed. Maybe this is just to the level that I should have been doing all along for piste skiing (remember I'm primarily an off-piste skier, so a lot of my skiing is pretty two footed), but the 50:50 stuff we hear a lot about these days has to be way over the top - unless you are WC standard you really need to be able to ski pretty much on the outside foot only for a lot of high performance turns. I'm certainly finding in my racing that the better I get the more one-footed I ski (or maybe it's the other way around Wink

)

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GrahamN,

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executive summary?

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GrahamN, is this pre or post lunch?

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rob@rar, I was going to say that the summary was rather 'safe' in that it begged (as in "presupposed the answers to " or "avoided") two questions, 1) how much is too much and 2) when is a stacked stance a good thing. So your edit has tightened that up quite a bit. I'd still strengthen the first part a bit, to "Deliberate counter", or "Teaching counter" - although that is then presupposing how much counter is "natural". Anything more than the minimum required to achieve the angulation you need (as opposed to that you think you need) is probably too much, and you can achieve much more by exercising/mobilising the hips than you think you can.

Dr John, just having a bit of lunch now Wink

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This is very interesting and I shall come back to it and read it properly when I've a bit more time. Because it's that "pushing the outside hip forward" bit which I've been trying to do (after being told to do it, by Fastman).

pam w,

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pam w, I'm trying to clarify... you mean old outside = new inside?

GrahamN, I'm Puzzled

I use inside hip drive at transition but create no more counter than I would without... Just I create it a little earlier and more deliberately...Also I create it by driving old outside - new inside - hip forward not dropping old inside(new outside) hip back....

Anyway I'm pretty much certain I create no more counter(at maximum position) than if I don't use it... in fact I'd say if anything I create a little less - because my skis feel more secure early in turn so I hang onto old turn less(Just a me thing that) and because I'm aware of my hips so don't let them get so out of kilter....

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little tiger, that has made my brain hurt quite badly. Laughing

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look around and smile more when skiing Shocked

The optimum is going to depend on the turn size \ shape and line required. Sometimes counter \ angulation will be desirable, sometimes a more square\stacked position is appropriate. The real skill is to be able to blend both to their best effect to be fast.

That said I've been playing around with using a more stacked \ square style for skiing bigger GS style arcs off-piste but as GrahamN suggests I'd would revert to the norm for steeps.

You know it makes sense.

Hurtle, After our last lesson I was a little confused as to which hip I should be driving forwards and felt a little less keyed into the snow when driving with the outside hip although it did get me standing more on the downhill ski.

Then I read FastMans article on inside leg extension and that will be giving that a try when next on the snow.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

little tiger, I mean the other hip - i.e. drive forward new outside, old inside at transition and keep it forward throughout turn, at least until allowing flexion at end of turn.

david@mediacopy, we were doing this in GS size turns to start with, but then taking it into a fairly wide set (philbo doesn't appear to know anything else Very Happy

) slalom course.

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Wot I woz talking about is the outside hip at the turn - extend inner leg and push that outside hip forward as you go. I think that was what I was supposed to be doing. It does, of course, then reduce (but not to nothing, not in my case at any rate) inner tip lead. wink

Now I'm actually in the middle of making a big dinner - asparagus starter, duck with redcurrant and red wine sauce and roast potatoes, followed by a gooseberry crumble (for Oz visitors who had never tried English gooseberries).

So will have to get back to hip thrusting a bit later. did find myself becoming confused as that move reduces counter (doesn't it?) but was probably an attempt to stop me doing some of the things you do because of early Austrian ski lessons. Maybe. I shall really try to understand this thread.....

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GrahamN, Funny to read this post, I've just spent the afternoon in a boimechanics lecture. Puzzled

I think we decided some countering was ok, as long as not forced. The amount of countering will adjust to the type of turn being performed.

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Dunk, common theory?

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pam w,

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OK, little tiger, I think we're getting a little confused by what's happening at the transition, so let's simplify things as bit and just consider the snapshot of what's happening at the apex. The skis are pointing directly down the hill, and the body is angulated so the hips are well inside the turn. What we're saying here is that in the squared up position the hips and body are pointing pretty much directly down the hill at the same time, and this is achieved by lateral angulation at the hips, and if anything extra is required, there's a 'pinch' between the the outer iliac crest and ribs. In the countered position the hips are pointing more towards the outside of the turn, the inner hip and ski are a bit further forward, and the outer hip a bit further back, and body angulation is created with an element of forward rather than lateral angulation at the hips. There is no argument that that forward angulation is not easier to achieve than the lateral one, but the point is whether it is actually necessary with modern ski design, and whether that extra ease is worth the cost of the disadvantages I listed in the OP. Our contention is that it is not.

Now lets move onto the transition, say from a left hand turn to a right hand one. When using the countered position there is the rotation at the hips required to get from the old counter (left hip forward) to the new one (right hip forward). This is where you drive your old outside (in this case, right) hip forward, so achieving that rotation. I also agree that when the legs are inclined against the snow there is a tendency for the inside ski to be forward and the hips to be in that countered position, so that movement is fairly natural. But the problem with this is that the position is much weaker, and more prone to collapsing at the waist etc.. The advantages I listed above are achieved by skiing in a more squared up position, so we need to overcome that natural tendency, and hence the drive forward with the old inside (in this case, left) hip is combined with the ILE to get quickly into a strong position standing on the new outside (here, left) ski, getting early pressure onto the front of the ski and you are quickly into the new turn. The rotational movement of the hips is unnecessary, and removes focus from what's happening to that outside leg - and also has a tendency to produce a rotation opposite to that of the new turn, so slowing down the initiation. Once that transition is largely complete you can then enhance the new position with a backward movement of the new inside (here, right) ski early in the new turn and you get a good forward position and commitment into the new turn.

Going back to your earlier post,

Excellent topic, GrahamN.

Counter serves 2 primary purposes. First, as you said, it allows for more effective hip angulation. The countering allows us to hip angulate by flexing forward at the waist. When we're square to our skis we have to flex sideways at the waist to hip angulate. Because we have much greater range of motion when flexing forward at the waist than we do when flexing sideways, it's quite obvious the counter provides more hip angulation potential.

OK, so counter allows you to angulate more. So what? How much do we need anyway? It depends. At low edge angles not much really. On a low edge I can ski very outside ski balanced with my body tilted straight as a telephone pole. However, as edge angles grow, that telephone pole stance just won't cut it anymore, it will put you on your inside ski pronto. As edge angles grow more angulation is progressively needed. If you want to do that added angulating at the hip, more counter will be called for.

The second benefit of counter is that it helps to pronate the outside foot. Much like gait mechanics, as the hip rotates towards your stance foot (in skiing your new outside foot), and your weight moves forward, your stance foot pronates. That pronation drives your weight right onto the big toe edge of your outside foot, which in turn loads the inside edge of your outside ski, exactly where we want the force load to be directed. it doesn't take much counter to make that pronation take place. As long as you're not aft, the foot will pronate enough to help direct the forces properly with only a slight amount of counter.

OK, GrahamN, now let's get back to discussing your rotation state discoveries. In hearing your description of falling aft and inside when driving the inside hip forward I have a pretty good idea of what was going wrong. The "getting stuck aft", and "struggling to keep up with my skis" was the give away for me. Counter is not the origin of aft. Lack of ankle flexion and knee extension of the outside leg is the origin of aft. If your weight is primarily on your outside foot, and your outside leg is extended, then you can't be aft. The forward pitched design of a ski boot guarantees fore balance if your knee is extended. One of two things was likely happening. Either you were creating your inside hip lead by dropping your outside hip back, which I doubt was the case because I stressed strongly against that in the DVD, or you were not extending your outside leg as you drove your new inside hip forward. I'm guessing the second scenario was the more likely culprit. It would definitely result in you struggling in the back seat, and once there falling inside is a very common secondary occurrence. Extend your outside knee and flex your ankle as you inside hip drive, while focusing on leveling your shoulders via flexion at the waist, and you'll be hammering into the front of your ski and solidly outside ski balanced. Promise. Knowing you, I'm sure you'll be giving this another try, so when you do, use this imagery tool. Imagine your body is leading your feet down the hill, tilted out in front of them, with your feet chasing you body down the mountain. If it clicks for you, the new sensation can be powerful.

Now to your square stance experience. Yes, it's a very different sensation. It's what the Waist Steering technique is based on. Two things make it work, let me explain. First, driving your outside hip forward, as you describe doing, creates a bit of a rotary effect that serves to hyper engage the front of the ski. It also adds a very slight steering force to the ski. The result is an intensified turn radius. It feels pretty cool when you do it, like your body is being extremely proactive in driving and controlling the turn. The outside hip driving also makes you feel very fore, because the outside foot moves rearward in contrary response to that forward drive of the hip. I'm not at all surprised you like the sensation, it is fun.

Did you wonder why you didn't seem to need as much hip angulation when doing the outside hip drive thing? Pretty simple, really. You're substituting knee angulation. Knee angulation is a natural byproduct of rotating the pelvis in the direction of the turn. To prove that fact to yourself, stand up right now and knee angulate. See what happens to your pelvis? It rotates to point to the inside of the turn, just like your angulated knee is doing. Driving the outside hip forward encourages your knee to angulate, just as knee angulating encourages the pelvis to rotate, they work in harmony. It's the knee angulation while outside hip driving that reduces the need to hip angulate as much. Even a slight amount of knee angulation will increase your edge angle and sharpen your turn radius enough to move weight to your outside ski without having to hip angulate. It feels like you're standing very erect, but the knee angulation is providing the needed lateral balance tweak.

It's really not an old school/new school thing, GrahamN. Rather, it's more a matter of personal preference, or catering to individual body type. A look on the World Cup will show examples of both, counter with hip angulation, or square with knee angulation, being used, and at various degrees of each. In each example of skiers you see there the forces they're dealing with will be close to the same, as will the turn shapes and ski radii, so it's really a matter of what form of angulation they're using to place their CM in the proper place. Knee angulation and square, they'll look more inclined. Hip angulation and counter, they'll look more folded. I stress hip angulation and counter in my DVD because it's a safer position. Any knee angulation weakens the leg and puts it at higher risk of injury. As you know, I do teach knee angulation in my DVD, but only as a of beginning a turn when needed tool, or as supplementation to the primary hip angulation theme, as a way of micro managing turn shape or balance state, again when needed, not as a default way of skiing. I lean towards safety for my students. Solid hip angulation and counter will serve people well for many years of safe skiing. Knee angulation as a default manner of skiing is playing with fire.

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Here are a few examples of various rotational states being employed.

This first one is of Bode skiing through and arc to arc transition. He comes through the red turn countered. Between images 2 and 3 he begins his transition. Through images 3,4,5 he drives his new inside (downhill) hip forward, eliminating the counter from the previous turn, and establishing new counter for the coming turn, as he simultaneously executes his transition. By image 6 he is on a high edge angle and strongly countered, just prior to the turn's apex. At image 7 the counter he's using is very evident. To see it, project a line in the direction his outside ski is pointing, and another straight out of his chest, in the direction it's pointing. The angle those two lines create represents the amount of counter the skier is employing at that moment in time.

[/img]

Here's one of Ligety coming through the same gate. Again he too skis the red gate countered (see image 3). Images 4,5,6 he's driving his new inside (downhill) hip forward, eliminating the old turn counter, and establishing the new turn counter. Notice in image 5 (edge angle neutral) he's slightly anticipated, but he's in the process of inside hip driving, uncoiling the spring, so pivoting is avoided. By image 7 his counter is clearly established.

Ah, here's a goody. Hermann, one of the best skiers of all time, and the king of counter. I don't even need to point out the inside hip drive and counter, it's so clear.

Here's a nice shot of Rahlves moving from counter to counter

Pure examples of skiing square are harder to find, but here's an example of Bourque displaying a lesser degree of counter. Notice how in the 4th last image he's entering the turn more square, and at the same time in rolling his outside (right) knee into the turn? You can even see it beginning to happen in the prior image. That semi angulated knee holds through the next 2 images. Again, this is not pure square skiing. If you run your ski/chest lines in the 2nd and 3rd last images you can see there is some counter here too. It's just less. Closest to square I could find at the moment, over at LeMaster's site.

Brilliant footage - makes it so clear. Thanks, FastMan, very, very instructive.

You know it makes sense.

Hurtle, if that was helpful you might find LeMaster's book a worthwhile reference.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

rob@rar, thanks. I do find those multiple frame (or whatever you call them) pictures helpful. I often can't see what's happening in real time video (and always marvel at how ultra-observant you are!)

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pam w, I watched with Fastman and I got the feedback/commentary but we lacked the ability to zap the cameraman and editor when they showed us rubbish.... I want direct feedback TV Twisted Evil

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david@mediacopy, yes

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GrahamN, reading this topic has made my head hurt. Is this similar to what Phil was teaching us on Monday, if so, that worked felt like my skiing stepped up a notch, much more stable.

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FastMan, I think sometimes the GS montages can be misleading to recreational skiers, they see these and think a highly countered position is always a "good" thing that will get them skiing "dynamic". IMO most of the counter in those shots is deliberately done due to the athlete trying to shoulder charge the gate and get as tight as possible line. If you watch the same athlete freeskiing a similar turn shape the amount of counter will be a lot, lot less i would hazard to guess...

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skimottaret,

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skimottaret, Your memory serves you well and I'm going to blame it on trying to suck up some of the bend in those floppy hire skis wink

ahem.

I think I got stuck on trying to lead with the outside hip a little too early which felt unbalanced, reading this thread has enlightened me I hope.

Help!!

To counter or not to counter? That is the question.

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