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The credit cards are looking worn after the winter and I have just cancelled the gym membership - which was working out at about £5 a minute on the rowing machine or £1 a length in the pool... Has anyone used the Skiers Edge skiing exercise machines? All the pictures have racing gods or silicone enhanced models using the machines? Do they work? Is it worth looking a complete git? Is the only form of training for skiing actually skiing? Help? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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John Rivett, I used one while being video'd for boot fitting at Profeet. It seemed a pretty good simulation of carving, and harder work than you might think. The guys at Profeet were able to pick out some biomechanical issues, which was helpful. I think PG said he was going to buy one - I expect he'll be along in a bit.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hi John, Get yourself down to your local police auction and buy yourself a bicycle . . . and use the bloody thing . . EVERY day. Lock away the car keys for three months and find alternatives . . . like walking.
You don't need to spend 2K on at sports specific trainer until you’re fit enough to use it. Isolated training for one specific sport will only hurt you.
Skiing is a whole body, aerobic and anaerobic sport, all and any exercise will enhance your abilities on snow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Have to agree with Masque...but if you've the money and space, the Skier's Edge machine is a good addition to the gym for a keen skier.
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Make that "sad fat git who likes his exercise indoors..." I use to cycle/time-trial etc a lot 25 years ago, until it made various senstive bits of me hurt... but now I am looking for something which doesnt involve lycra, rain or getting splasehd/run off the road by psychotic motorists (like me). I have tried exercise bikes and rowing machines, but really the only thing I want to get fit for is skiing, and unless you are in really heavy stuff, I havent found the cardio aspect to be a problem, its the legs, mainly the lateral thighs and quads which are the problems.
Masque, there is an interesting theory that people only have a certain amount of high intensity exercise they can do on their life, and then they die. Check out the life expectancy of racing cyclists and American Footballers (although that might just be the drugs and Epo). Cycling is also the most efficient form of locomotion known to nature. I used to have to train for 200 miles + a week and I simply havent got the time.
Thanks for the link to the previous thread. Now I have cancelled the gym membership I can try and pretend that I might afford one...
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IMHO skiing is not good exercise, as it is mainly composed of isometric contraction of muscles rather than a dynamic workout. Workouts that are specific to the muscles used when skiing are not likely to be beneficial when used alone. A lot of the pain that we get in our quads when skiing is related to lactic acid build up in the muscles, this is best prevented by improving our cardiovascular fitness and circulation to the legs. I would also think that a far more efficient way of improving our skiing would be by losing unneccessary upper body weight and so decreasing the loads put through our legs.
I don't think that one of these skiers edge machines is likely to give you a very good work-out at all, save your money and have some extra ski trips instead.
BTW cycling and american football are examples of two of the most drug ridden sports in the world, hence the low life expectancy. The theory about the certain amount of exercise one can do in ones life is pure tosh, pure and simple.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kramer, I agree about the surplus upper body weight. I can't fully agree with the cardiovascular fitness point, at least in my own case; I've always had a reasonably high level of cardiovascular fitness but still suffered from leg burn. Improved technique, better boots and weight training (which I've only done for the past season and a half) seem to have been factors in reducing the problem (or being able to ski harder/faster/longer to the same effect). I suppose I've not done a control by going skiing when unfit, so I can't rule out that factor altogether.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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John Rivett, You could find yourself a tall building with a set of stairs, some hand weights and spend ½ an hour every other day going up and down them. once you can manage 30 min without stopping or taking your heartrate over your safe training level, change the pace (gentle jog, up only) and stride length (2 steps at a time, up only).
That should sort aerobic fitness and leg strength. Use the weights for arm and shoulder workout at the same time will also help your balance.
edited cos my fingers aren't connected to my brain this morning.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 31-03-05 9:40; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, for me, it is interesting that the worst quad burn and tired leg syndrome I have experienced was after I went all out to build up quad strength before skiing last year. I spent a huge amount of time in gym specifically doing leg extensions, squats etc. I was still very fit from a cardio perspective, but have never had legs as sore or 'heavy' before or since. I can only conclude that I built too much muscle in my legs to the point where they were just big lactic acid traps!
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You know it makes sense.
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agavin, I agree that skiing is not a particularly intense exercise. As you say, it's better than being in the office though! I think an important aspect is that you're exercising for up to 6 hours per day, albeit lightly. Walking to and from the lifts with weights on your feet and over the shoulder shouldn't be discounted either! I cycle regularly, and generally find that my times are somewhat improved after a skiing holiday.
Very interesting about the leg burn. Maybe there's an optimum amount of training(?).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Maybe the leg burn is because you are using your (bigger muscles) to stay in balance. After using a balance board for a while I found leg burn was greatly reduced.
A few weeks ago I took a "Herminator test" at the ski centre where many of the Austrian ski pro's train. They said I was trainning at too high an intensity (140-170 pulse) and that a lower intensity (ca 100 pulse) for an hour x 4-5 times a week would better help my ski performance. I trust they will increase the intensity a little later.
I use an indoor eliptical trainner or cycle most evenings. It's less effort than the previous regime (although takes a little more time) but seems to be improving my performance.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've copied some content of this thread to Graham Bell - ski racer and Skiers Edge distributor in the UK - in the hope that he may like to comment...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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John Rivett, up until 5 years ago I played a lot of football and with it went a lot of training. I considered myself to be pretty fit, however, when I skied, I was in no time at all swimming in a sea of lactic acid. I knew I was fit, so decided to that it must be my technique. I undertook a number of private lessons. I told the instructor the problems I was having, he must have thought it was Xmas as we spent a couple of days with him skiing very hard in all terrain, whilst shouting at me and watching me fall many times at high speed, as I tried in vain to follow his every word and movement with my thighs wanting to explode. He was also being paid handsomely for my torture!
However, towards the end to the second session, something clicked and the pain went away. I don't really know what I did or when I did it but, said he to me "now you're a skier" took my money and cleared off. I was looking for holes in his hands, evidence of water into vin chaud, a few fish, a baguette and a queue of about 5000. But no just a faint wiff of Gitanes as he sped off.
Ever since, despite my fitness level diminishing rapidly I've had a relatively pain free time skiing, (with the exception of rapid bump runs). My advice would be to spend your money on booze good food and private lessons.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PG - Although the lateral thigh strengthener is effective in working out your thighs, i'm sure it doesn't work all the muscle groups that the skiers edge can and it doesn't simulate carving - hence the lower price. I mentioned it because John Rivett said it was mainly the lateral thighs that were the problem and that his credit cards were looking worn. Not meaning to discredit the skiers edge because it is clearly a more advanced piece of equipment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think that a lot of it comes down to technique. If conditions are powdery or heavy then it is far more efficient to carve turns than to skid them, making you less tired, and making your thighs burn less. I also accept the point made above that building up your quads helps to some extent as well.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm absolutely with Kramer on this. One trip a couple of years ago I was exhausted right from the first day (new baby, work etc) and never got into the groove or slept properly. My technique was shot and I was hauling the skis round each turn, gving me thigh burn that made me look to see if flames were pouring out of my thigh-level vents. This lead to stiffness and worse technique. Next trip I figured out carving (and left the baby at home...) and expended way less energy, allowing me to be fresher through the whole week. Technique as well as basic fitness.
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I find the area that basic fitness helps you in, is if your technique runs out, and you're fit, it gives you the energy to power through the dodgy bit, and get away with a lot of things that you wouldn't otherwise.
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I agree. And with fitness comes the stamina to strive to improve technique 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks Peter for copying me in on your discussions, which I have caught up on with interest. I take heart from the fact that physical conditioning is being seriously discussed in relation to skiing. It is a step in the right direction. There is no doubt that with the introduction of carving skis that skiing has become a more physical sport for the recreational skier.
I totally agree with Kramer that skiing is not a good way to increase basic fitness. It is far too anaerobic for a start, and yes improving basic C.V fitness and losing excess body fat will show greater returns than concentrating on localised muscle groups. I agree will Masque that cycling is a great way to stay in shape. I ride in the Etape de Tour every year - one whole stage of the Tour de France. Last year I was one of 8500 riders who tackled the 240 KM stage. Suffice it to say that I did not get my bike from a police auction! I actually spent closer to £3K on a carbon framed Look.
Even with the miles of cycling over the summer months, I still find the Skier's Edge useful as a conditioning machine. Come the autumn when the days get shorter and the weather gets worse, it is not so easy to get out on those 4hr cycle rides. Yes you can put your bike on the trubo-trainer and sit there for hours on end, but it is boring as hell. The Skier's Edge will give you an interesting CV workout, that also improves balance and coordination.
Yes DB is right to say that most people train their CV fitness at a too high intensity. (It is better to calculate this using an average of your maximum heart rate, as HR varies so much individually). Around 65-75% of max is best for a basic fat burning work-out, with a session that is ideally longer than 90 mins. Once you have improved your basic fitness, and you get closer to the ski season, you can then start to introduce intervals to your programme. Most people do not ski for more than 2 minutes without stopping, I am not sure about how hard agavin was skiing, but I have had my heart rate up over 180 on some runs!
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Thanks for all this. I absolutely agree with the last 2 comments before Grahams'. The trouble is I have pretty decent technique, and have spent a lot of time having lessons even 20 years into skiing. This allows me to ski pretty well for the first 4 hours a day, and then the wheels fall off, the right shoulder goes back, I cease loving the fall line... you get the picture. I think if I was a beginner now I would be stuffed by 1030. Howver it really isnt the cardio aspect, even at high altitude which gets me (unless we have to hike), it is certain muscle groups unknown to anatomists and not made to hurt by anything in any gym I have used. I rarely have bad days, but have some bad afternoons. May be I should extend those lunches to 3-4 courses and have a no bumps after 1100 rule. Getting older is a bitch.
Now Mr Bell... what about a 25% snowHeads discount!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't think that you can seperate the fact that your muscles get tired from your level of cardiovascular fitness. My experience has always been that the fitter you are the longer you can ski for without getting tired.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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John Rivett, If you're saying you have good technique and can recognise when you fall outside it after about 4 hours skiing (though we don’t know at what intensity level you are skiing), then what you’re describing is just a lack of base-line fitness. Something that many of us are very guilty of as we age. The ‘Skier’s Edge’ is a great machine but it’s not a substitute for general fitness and daily activity. There is no shortcut other than to stop fooling ourselves that there is a shortcut.
You want to ski for the same time and intensity as you did in your memories, then you have to get your base fitness level back to where you performed at that level. At your (percieved) age, isolating your exercise to suit one specific sport will only harm you and could, if taken to excess, kill you.
Buy a Skier’s Edge by all means, but take a look at your lifestyle first.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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We use the Skier's Edge for a variety of reasons. At 12/13 years old, the kids use it on the low resistance setting outside of the summer. A good workout, and as far as simulating the real thing, it comes very close. Balance/coordination is not so much of a problem for skilled all season skiers, but a less able friend who has used ours has made big strides in both these areas and this has definitely been reflected in his skiing.
That said our gym includes bike, rower, stepper, a multistation weight machine, and an area with judo mats where the kids can take out their frustrations on their dad. Together with various outdoor sports the Skier's Edge complements, but doesn't replace, these activities (certainly not the last one as far as the kids are concerned  ).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Graham Bell, welcome to snowheads.
I looked at getting a skiers edge but delivery was a problem (Vienna, Austria) do you ship to central Europe at a resonable rate or is there a distributor here? I believe there are some in Austria (used by the Austria ski team amongst others) but am not sure where they were shipped from.
Here's a simple Heart rate calculator with a few different options for those interested.
http://www.stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Graham Bell, welcome to snowheads, I almost tried out one of your machines at last years Southampton Ski Show, but after seeing someone come off the machine and attempt to demolish your stand at the same time I had second thoughts, mind you there was definate entertainmet value watching you and Martin putting the stand walls back together 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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OOOop! Mea Culpa . . . welcome to Slushnuts Graham and thank's for the plug. I just think that an awful lot of us (the ones growing hair in new and unusual places) tend to neglect our base fitness . . . it’s a societal peer pressure trap that has us being told ‘you’re expected to put on a few pounds at your age’ or ‘don’t you think you’re a bit old to be doing that’ so our lives slowly become sedentary without us noting the reduction in our abilities . . . until we need them.
That and I think we rely on our cars far too much . . . I’ve a mid 30’s neighbour who won't walk 50 yards to the post-box. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Target heart rates should not really be calculated using formulae unless you know that you are an average person and how do you get to know that bit of information? These calculations are very approximate and should only be used for rough guidance.
Two important target heart rates; aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold. The anaerobic threshold can be measured by any of the exhaled oxygen analysis machines; mainly expensive carts in hospitals but now there are a number of miniaturized versions on the market. The aerobic threshold can be measured by machines which analyse both the oxygen and the carbon dioxide exhaled and is calculated by the other machines.
Aerobic threshold is where the body system switches from primarily fat utilisation to more sugar utilisation which is done in the liver.
Anaerobic threshold is where the body switches from mainly oxidative muscle function to glycolitic muscle function.
To get endurance fitter you are wanting to move your aerobic threshold closer to your anaerobic threshold and then raise your anaerobic threshold. People who overtrain often try too hard too soon attempting to raise their anaerobic threshold when there is still a large gap between their aerobic and anaerobic thresholds.
To put it another way - raising your aerobic threshold requires training which increases the number of mitochondria in the liver and raising your anaerobic threshold requires training which increases the number of mitochondria in the muscle cells.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Seems pretty simple to me, it is isn't working then do something about it. A bike should be a start and is feasible in the summer at least. And if you are thinking about running then your legs will have to be beefed up before you start or you will get strains and /or knee ligament pains.
There is no easy way once you get older and you are going to have to find yourself a regime. In recent years I have
worked mostly on leg weights and never really had a problem with burn. I generally find that when I get my legs 'burning' then that is like a second wind Its the cardio that I need to improve
My friends uses ski trainers and it appears to work for them. Their general fitness isn't the best but they ski well enough.
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Turns out exercise is also good for the mind according to this article from Vail Daily News
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Their study of people over age 55 has shown that in addition to the known benefits of exercise, aerobic fitness improves your mind. (Source - Colcombe, S.J., A.F. Kramer, et al. In press. Cardiovascular fitness, cortical plasticity, and aging. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.)
It does this by increasing the brain's gray and white matter, both of which shrink as a function of aging, starting at age 30. And this decrease in gray and white matter is associated with reduced brain functioning. |
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No one disputes that skiing is good for the soul as well as the body. But, could it really also be good for the mind?
It depends on how aerobically you ski. According to the American College of Sports Medicine, aerobic benefit is achieved by maintaining an elevated heart rate for 20-60 continuous minutes, three to five days per week. |
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Hi John,
I am a Rheumatologist who has had back and neck surgery. I wanted to get back into skiing again, but wanted to be in good shape---I already owned an eliptical machine which is good cardio, but a bit of a bore. I bought a 'big mountain series' off of e-bay for $750 (US). It has been a great way to prepare for the season. In fact it helped me 'break-through' to skiing the blacks. Those who say it is not a good cardio--try it for 30 minutes at level 10--then post a reply. Quad burn extrordinaire--and about 400 calories in 1/2 hour--obviously you work up to that. It is also joint sparing--especially if your knees are a bother. Again, do not get the 'classic'. It is too easy. AT 47 years old I have better skiing endurance. I agree with the others, it should not be the only exercise you do. It does break up the boredom---I enjoy the 'runs' Good luck, Brian
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm terribly sorry, I owe everyone an apology. I thought that the skiers edge was something completely different to what it is. DOH! I thought that it was one of those magic carpet skiing simulators rather than the machine that it actually is. I still think that skiing is not particularly good exercise, but I couldn't comment on this machine.
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Kramer, we've all done it; some of us have even owned up! 
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FAQ
). The average hr for the entire day (about 10:00am till 5:00pm) was 80 with a max of about 105 (probably standing at the top looking down a mogul field!).
I train a few times a week on plastic but a little extra leg strengthening at home seems to be a benefit 
