What flaw is still evident in mini 1 ?
What tactically did mini 3 do wrong that hurt his time?
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skimottaret, not really sure on this one but mini 1 seems to come up and cross over, could be crossing through/under to be faster? Looks like 3 is taking too tight a line and hitting the gates/getting caught up/pivoting round them rather than taking the fast carved line?
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skimottaret, I see mini 1's o\s ski not tracking as I'd want before their transition (evident on the last few gates), suggesting some fore\aft balance issues ?
Mini 3, looked late on 3rd last gate and could have had a better quality pole\skate at the end. I suspect the line problem was due to a skid \ wobble after the prev. gate.
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suggesting some fore\aft balance issues
yup spot on... we have been working on this with her. not that you can tell from the video but she is on some fairly long stiff skis that she won in a race. they are almost GS boards for her stamp and she gets caught on the inside a bit trying to rush them. That said she is very very handy little skier.
DaveC, Mini 3 is a big lad for his age and his parents have decided he should train with older kids. What has happened is that he now tries to emulate the teenagers, who all cross block gates, and to be like the bigger kids he is more worried about blocking gates by punching and getting thrown out of position. Mini 1 at more that a few kilos lighter took a wider line and was faster.
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skimottaret, do you reckon mini 3 would be faster if he could 'cross block' correctly, or still better on a wider line ?
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david@mediacopy, tough one but i would say that until a racer is comfortable shinning the poles they shouldnt be punching. Mini 3 does incline pretty well and gets across the gates but although he is big for his age i dont think he is strong enough yet to cross block. angulating more and GSing the gates probably would be better tactically but that course (which i didnt see personally, just the video) looks quite wide to me and turny and by trying to cross block he kept getting hung up and twisted probably cost him time.....
be interesting to her from rjs or fastman on this one race tactics isnt my forte...
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Any idea where the rutline was? Looked like 3 might have been fighting it. I have no real clue when it comes to gates but they looked they both started to come unstuck at the 4th gate up from bottom but 1 recovered better.
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the fore aft issues could be very boot related, parents often insist on bigger boots or shops give bigger boots to allow for foot growth!!!, if the skier is not in the correct place in the boot they can't drive the ski as efficiently as they should, often the compensate by standing bolt upright in the boot or ending up in the back seat a little. boot flex in an over sized boot is also not accurate as the leverage point is only at the top of the cuff rather than the whole way down the front of the shin
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
fatbob, wasnt there but the minis usually go first so the rut is pretty small, both minis ski at MK so should be used to ruts as it cuts up worse there than at Hemel where this race was. didnt look too rutted to me on the tape but i think mini3 got caught out on the last few gates as they are on the flat and would have been slowed down quite a bit there...
CEM, could be, she was on big skis but not sure about boots... notice how she was diverging in the bottom of the turns and on the inside...
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skimottaret, FWIW, I think Mini 3's first tactical error was going way too direct at gate 3 or at least coming out of it way too straight. So, way earlier than 4 gates from the end, david@mediacopy, IMV. From there on he's dreadfully late on the line. You can see him hitting the downhill edge of the rut as he comes out of gate 4, and from then on he's collapsing on to the back of his skis as he hits each gate and finishes each turn way on his tails, riding the downside of the rut. As I know from my own mistakes, this is dreadfully slow. His skis have also hardly started each turn as he gets to the gate - he's still only about half way to the fall-line as he passed each gate.
Whether he is big enough to cross-block or not I couldn't really say - although he does look a pretty decent size to me - but the main problem is that he's just not doing it very well. He's clearly not yet got over the natural reaction to shy away from the pole - so is falling onto the back of the ski as he hits it - rather than committing to going directly through it and pummelling it into submission. You can also see him putting his hand back after hitting each pole, rather than pushing through it - all part of the "oh my God, this pole's hard and is going to hurt" reaction. This shying away means he has no chance whatever to recover the lateness of the line - he has to be way more aggressive with the poles to make up that ground. Maybe a fun game there would be to get him several runs through easy courses and to think of them as opposing nijas/teachers/other bogeymen and slice/smack each one to the ground.
Agree with david@mediacopy and you about Mini 1. Despite that, there's some pretty nice angulation and good fluid movements going on.
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A little birdie told me (actually a little kitty) that I've been summoned to comment on skimottaret's race clip of team mini, so here I am.
Racing is actually at its root a simple matter of line, edge control and balance. The straighter you can go while still staying clean (carving) on your edges, the faster you will go. Proper balance serves to make doing that possible. With that said, I'll have a go at MA'ing these two little racers.
it would help to have a better close up video of these two racers. To properly MA you really need to be able to see exactly what the skis are doing,,, how cleanly they're carving,,, where the balance point is,,, etc. Only then can you accurately evaluate edging skills and the line that would be appropriate to match those skills. Still, I'll comment on what I think I see.
Mini 1:
As far as edging, we see a big pivot, powered via a big up move. She's trying to run a straight line on skis that aren't up to the task, so the pivot is needed. The up move represents slow, wasted movement. I'd like to see her replace it with retraction.
Post pivot I'm not seeing as clean a carve as I'd like. It appears to be a bit washy/steery. I could be wrong, as it is a small image of her, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. That's a time killer. It also bleeds the energy needed to powerfully and rapidly cross the skis under the body, into a new pivot, via retraction.
But here's the biggest issue for her, in regards to time and technique; she's skiing around the gates, not through them. By doing that she is traveling much further back and forth across the hill than she needs to, which results in the need to make smaller radius turns. Smaller radius + longer distance = slower speed. By moving inside the gate with her body she could travel a straighter line down the hill with her Center of Mass, turn less, and go much faster. Also notice how skiing outside the gate is negatively affecting her technique. In trying to stay close to the gate she's standing too upright, edging her outside ski with knee angulation. It reduces the edge angle she can achieve, and puts her in a weak position. If she allowed her body to move inside the gate it would eliminate the need to remain upright, letting her get into a better position. If she's not yet ready to attempt moving inside the pole, she should actually move her feet further away from the pole. That will allow her to assume a better body position.
Mini 2:
One major thing happening with this guy that's killing his speed. He's reaching across his body with his outside hand to clear the gate. It creates a rotation that severely washes out his tail as he passes the gate, which essentially slams on the breaks in the bottom half of each turn. He needs to spend a bunch of time in brush/baby gates, getting proper edging skills embedded, then have full size gates reintroduced in a progressive manner that allows those proper edging skills to remain intact.
This reaching across business is very common in young racers, and the reason the progressive introduction of full size gates is so important for all racers. Moving inside the gate with the body is intimidating at first, and requires already embedded edging/angulation skills that allow it to be done. Too often race programs spend too much time in the gates embedding bad habits because necessary foundation skills have not yet been developed. Develop them outside the sticks first, them bring them back to the course and apply them.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 16-07-10 17:37; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
david@mediacopy, hilarious video.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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He needs to spend a bunch of time in brush/baby gates, getting proper edging skills embedded, then have full size gates reintroduced in a progressive manner that allows those proper edging skills to remain intact.
couldnt agree more but we have a constant issue with keeping little ones out of adult SL gates. Just try telling that to parents who want johnny to ski "proper gates" so he will be ready for the "big" race and if johnny doesnt get a podium (and a medal) out of 11 competitors he wont be happy the parents all nod in agreement when you talk about long term athlete development, skills progressions, we only use gates ocassionally, etc etc but then ask so on what dates will training be with full gates. One of our other good ones absolutely insists in cross blocking and it has killed his times... boys will be boys and try to be like the older ones.. arrgghh...
mini 1 is very gutsy (sarah schleper screams before every race) but she is very slight frame and has been clattered a lot and broke an arm clearing so we have her working on GLaloming these courses. She defo is wide and with such a wide set she was always gonna skid out a bit. (still won by a big margin) she is too squatty and on the inside and her GS size skis dont help. Retraction turns would be good but she is too low when she gets wide, any suggestions on how to put that right? we have been doing lots of for aft with her and hitting big jumps with one leg entries to get her high and popping. one leg med radius as well
FastMan, another coach has her now and is keen for her to be on GS boards all the time so when she gets out to the mountains will blast bigger course sets, I am dubious of running GS skis in SL courses and think this does more harm than good...
the snowplough crash guy is a pretty good skier and a champion drinker.. that school is full of scotish guys that like a wee dram...
Yes, dealing with the parents can be a challenge. I always found being firm the best course. I also developed a system of recognizing and striving for individual goals and progress beyond medals, had a clear way of measuring it, and promoted it heavily. In post race evaluation I would address performance in that context. Funny thing is, when that approach is taken the medals eventually come in bulk. I say that tongue in cheek, because we both understand why that happens. It's mom and dad who initially struggle with the concept. We have to educate them too.
As to mini 1, I understand the "not ready to move inside the pole yet" thing. When she's ready she will. In the meantime, moving off the pole with her feet more, like I suggested (ruts permitting) will help her get in a better position, with bigger edge angles and a stronger/longer outside leg. Trying to stay too close to the pole with the feet decimates technique. It's a very common issue. It's called pinching the gate in my neck of the woods.
As far as being squatty, I'm OK with that if it's happening with a roll of the back and not in the legs. When it happens in the legs it's often a prep move for the extension (up move) and pivot, a substitute for edge angle and carving. When a kid doesn't have the skills or confidence to tip high and carve, up and pivot is what you'll often see. Try some long>short drills. Long outside leg at the apex, short legs at transition. Exaggerate at first, at lower edge angles, then work into more natural movements at higher edge angles. Then move it into gates, little offset at first, then progressively more. You should see the flex/up move fade away, replaced with carve/retract.
The inside issue can be a byproduct of the skis, not enough sidecut. I totally agree with your concern over GS sidecuts in SL courses. Builds bad habits indeed. I lean towards more sidecut when learning. Get the feel of arc to arc embedded first, then take it to faster courses and straighter skis. Not enough sidecut just encourages and embeds pivoting and steering. That should be avoided at all costs. Once you know arc to arc, you know speed, and you aspire to it in all courses.
That said, hammer the kids on the angulation drills. They're crucial, especially as edge angle begins being substituted for pivots and steers.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 16-07-10 18:43; edited 1 time in total
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I figured crash guy was a good skier. I assumed it's staged, but it doesn't look it. Being able to make the staged look real takes skill.
Not enough sidecut just encourages and embeds pivoting and steering. That should be avoided at all costs. Once you know arc to arc, you know speed, and you aspire to it in all courses.
An important point for recreational skiers, not just junior racers.
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FastMan wrote:
I figured crash guy was a good skier. I assumed it's staged, but it doesn't look it. Being able to make the staged look real takes skill.
Nope, very drunk!
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rob@rar wrote:
FastMan wrote:
Not enough sidecut just encourages and embeds pivoting and steering. That should be avoided at all costs. Once you know arc to arc, you know speed, and you aspire to it in all courses.
An important point for recreational skiers, not just junior racers.
Absolutely!!! When it comes to rec skiers, the speed is what intimidates when carving. More sidecut allows for carving to be learned and enjoyed at lesser speeds.
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rob@rar wrote:
FastMan wrote:
I figured crash guy was a good skier. I assumed it's staged, but it doesn't look it. Being able to make the staged look real takes skill.
Nope, very drunk!
Hmmmmm,,,, well,,,,, less impressive, but more funny!
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By the way, skimottaret, that innate aggression you mentioned in mini 1, so valuable, and rather rare in a girl. With good coaching it can take her far. Memories of the girls I've coached in that category are flashing for me. Most eventually raced FIS level.
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FastMan, it is rare indeed over here, there is a distinct lack of strength in depth in girls skiing in the UK right now, a few guys coming through but so few girls
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FastMan, sorry forgot about this thread and just read you comments..
great ideas for long leg short leg drills and lots of angulation drills with mini 1, interesting to hear that you feel big boards aren't a good training tool in SL courses. I dont feel i have enough experience to offer suggestions on training equipment but my gut feel was that it has been hampering her. I will talk to her coach about it...
I only worked with her on a group basis for 18 months or so and she was already really good when i came across her but i focused on for aft with her and it still needs work imo, she loves challenge and gets easily bored all good traits!!. she has a private coach that really did good things with her early one and the head coach of the club is an ex WC and olympic skier and only just recently decided to put her in with the older age group with the national team skiers. He was under great pressure to do this early on and resisted for some time which in hindsight i think was the right thing to do.
She is one of a very small handful of talented girls as CEM mentions coming through and everyone is really keen for her to do well. refreshingly her parents are very very well grounded and limit the amount of races she enters preferring all mountain skiing and indoor training as opposed to endless weekend races. She is sprouting up and i think FIS will definately be within her grasp if not europa cup or better baring any injuries...
We have one other that just left my group and has as much talent and drive (british champion under 11's) and made british childrens team, pretty much won everything she entered but she took a real bad crash training and is now gun shy... will be interesting to see how she gets along and if she can recover confidence...
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skimottaret, I was away on a course last week with no internet access so didn't see the thread bump.
I was at the race and watched the second runs from part way down the slope so I saw mini 1 at close range. I felt that her line was probably the correct one for her size but remember thinking that the skis might be too long.
The minis have a course for themselves in this race series and we will probably be switching to using stubby gates for them from now on. The course was set with fairly big vertical distances so that it would ski more like a GS than a SL for the minis.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
remember thinking that the skis might be too long.
thanks, now that a few have mentioned this and confirmed my suspicions will defo be having a word with her coaches... good to hear you thought her line was correct and very good to hear the fun 4 minis is actually being implemented !!!
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Been looking at young racers how about casting your MA eyes over Skier 4
Task was Short Radius turns
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skimottaret, Need to see it in slomo really but as a first shot I'd say:
Stance width
Hands, a bit of door opening and down
Definitely aft
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skimottaret, I don't think he was completing the task. He was describing small sections of long radius arcs.
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david@mediacopy, Yep and I was struggling to comment on the difference between that and the "demonstration" short turns because a) that's how I ski short turns and b) I lack the BASI attention to detail on radius.
But would his way would be faster down the fall line than "full" turns? (Need to go and look at some slalom footage)
Forgetting posture issues and concentrating on the task as described, in my amateur opinion, I'd say he was making long radius short arc turns.
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Yep and I struggling to comment on the difference between that and the "demonstration" short turns because a) that's how I ski short turns and b) I lack the BASI attention to detail on radius.
Good point. No doubt the guy was performing his interpretation of "short radius turns". I'd have expected the ski's to describe a smaller arc and travel further around that arc. Given he's a racer he was probably quite focused on keeping the turns clean\carved (?) which may have influenced his turn size and shape.
Quote:
But would his way would be faster down the fall line than "full" turns? (Need to go and look at some slalom footage)
Those definitely aren't short turns, they're just wiggling skis down the fall line. fatbob, you're looking for a turn across the fall line, in a pretty quick tempo. Tight S shape in a reasonable corridor, rather than the pretty much straight track the vid made. http://youtube.com/v/z0eSifKmyMc for an example. It'd obviously be faster down the fall line, and even faster if he just went straight
Stance/mobility is what I'd work on first, he needs to actively get off the back of the boot - looks like ankles are about as open as possible, so I figure getting him to follow a short turn track is what I'd really like him to do, to force the correct turn shape and associated challenges that come with it, and work a fore/aft excercise in there too.
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bah, took far too long watching clips of short turns and got beaten to the punch on the obvious comment
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my amateur opinion
erh uhm you are now a professional
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skimottaret, I'm guessing that he's done some time on plastic ?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
or at least coming out of it way too straight. So, way earlier than 4 gates from the end, 
