Spent a week with new gen on a Level 5 course in Courchevel. Their headman spent the whole week insisting we 'bend ze knees' / crouch into the turn, stand on the turn and return lower as you come out of it / go into the next. The critical bit was the standing on the turn. I can see the sense of it and the turns felt stable, but it was tiring bobbing up and down all the time.
None of the BASI / ski club videos mention this. They say the important thing is to keep evenly weighted over the centre of the skis, leaning into the turn. Am interested to improve my carving and think I've got a rhythm which doesn't involve bobbing up and down. so would welcome views.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
He's getting you to extend your legs into the fall line more, straighter extended leg means you can edge more and allows higher performance. The "up/down" bit eventually allows you to deal with the pressures generated by speed/turn shape as well as move your body to balance on the ski.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
forwood wrote:
... think I've got a rhythm which doesn't involve bobbing up and down. so would welcome views.
I'm interested in what this rhythm is.
I agree with what your NewGen instructor was trying to do, and the explanation given by DaveC. The biggest problems I see in people trying to carve effectively are too little movement laterally to develop good enough edge angles, too little flexion and extension to create or manage pressure, and too much rotation so the transition from one set of edges to another isn't clean.
Get the impressin many skiers think flexion and extension are for old school straight skis. I guess for genetle piste cruising not much flexion / extension is possible but for higher performance or most stuff off piste then the trouble will really begin.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
In lay person's terms, that was how I was taught to ski back in the 80s on long skinny skis. I see a distinct difference between old school and new school skiers and what the latter tend to do seems a lot 'lazier'. Sounds like your New Gen instructor is trying to impart some elegant old school techniques which may equip you very well in the long term.
queen bodecia, Nope, the instructor was not in any way teaching forwood to ski old school.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
forwood, vertical up and down evolves into lateral stretching and contracting when performance skiing. The timing of the start of it determines if you cross-over/through/under. In the first part of the turn leg extension (off a good solid edged platform!) facilitates projection of the centre of mass in the appropriate direction, inclination and bigger edge angles, as well as generating pressure on the turning ski early so that most of the turn occurs in the first part of the turn (typical racing comma). In the latter part of the turn it enables the skier to manage the forces resulting from the turn and facilitates the unimpeded flow of the centre of mass across the skis for the next turn. This is also actually much less tiring than maintaining a static or park and ride position when trying to ski fast.
After all it is free
After all it is free
forwood, you mention carving in your op - but were your lessons carving specific or more general to improve you all round skiing ?
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rjs, OK fair enough. I was just commenting that the up and down thing seems fairly rare in 'new' skiers. Certainly in my small group of ski buddies it's pretty evident which of us learned 20-odd years ago and which more recently. It's not just the up and down thing but also the knees together (I remember a lesson where we had to hold our hats between our knees and keep them there!) stance. In my day it were all just fields.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Wow - thank you for all your detailed and quick responses. Flexion and extension - got that! rob@rar, the nearest description of that rhythm is similar to ice skating, shifting weight onto the hip / leg that's pushing forward into the turn and stretching the upper body with it, almost a side to side dancing movement. Hard to explain but seems to work - I think there is some flex / ext in it but not self consciously up and down, more relaxed. Perhaps it is as slikedges, suggests, an evolution to the lateral stretching and contracting. I can't do it all the time yet but when it happens, it's great!
Responses on needing this to manage performance in more difficult and steeper conditions chime with what the instructor said so am greatly reassured and will keep practising. The surprising thing is that the Skiing Skills videos: Beginners and Beyond & Piste Performance don't mention it.
david@mediacopy, the lessons were general. There were 5 of us, but I particularly wanted to pick up on carving and excellent instructor that he is, tried to give us all what we wanted. The flex/ ext was his central theme for the week with all of us though, as most were just getting off the sliding turn to use edges more. My only complaint was that he kept attributing my success to my new K2 Recons rather than my ability
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 23-03-10 3:04; edited 1 time in total
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forwood, My level 3 ESF instructor taught us exactly the same thing this year. Crouch, rise (just after a pole plant), crouch. Initially I thought it was old school too, but the technique definitely applies to modern carver skis and I was skiing much smoother and faster by the end of the week.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Was taught the same thing by a BASS instructor - found it really useful.
Now whenever I get on my ski's on that first day, this exercise(with the pole plant as described by the above poster) is the first thing I do... gets my confidence back and quickly becomes second nature.....
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
queen bodecia, The up and down movement is certainly *not* a New Nu Skool method! This is a standard method of practice and if you're seeing people who are NOT doing this then it says more about them than modern skiing itself! In addition, why would you keep your knees together like a 60 year old Frenchman?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Alexandra, So are you saying that up and down movement is good.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jimmjimm, its essential for good skiing and I don't understand how anyone can get by without it.
The up down movement is practice to get you to ski like this..... It translates to the body remaining level and the legs do the up/down movement.... if you cant see it in this clip then get down to specsavers
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Or Svindal doing any here.
http://youtube.com/v/WI-2-iZEvoQ
I would say it's essential for good skiing to eliminate up and down movement.
Legs flexing and extending is totally different to the body moving up and down.
Sideshow_Bob, does extend and flex though, not up and down but laterally stretching and contracting, with largely cross-through and cross-under
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jimmjimm wrote:
Legs flexing and extending is totally different to the body moving up and down.
Lateral extension and flexion is very difficult to teach if a client can't move "up and down". I spend a lot of time trying to increase client's range of movement (whether that has a big lateral component or a big 'vertical' component [it should actually be at right angles to their skis rather than vertically up and down]), and it is something that I teach to beginners as soon as they are doing snowplough turns (it's very much a part of the BASI Central Theme progression).
daehwons, thanks but I'm perfectly aware of cross-over, cross-under and cross-through. My point was quite simple, vertical movement in itself is not essential.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
forwood wrote:
rob@rar, the nearest description of that rhythm is similar to ice skating, shifting weight onto the hip / leg that's pushing forward into the turn and stretching the upper body with it, almost a side to side dancing movement. Hard to explain but seems to work - I think there is some flex / ext in it but not self consciously up and down, more relaxed. Perhaps it is as slikedges, suggests, an evolution to the lateral stretching and contracting. I can't do it all the time yet but when it happens, it's great!
Yes, sounds like you are developing a more lateral component to your movement, which is an essential skill if you are do steer your skis by tipping them on to their edges rather than twisting them. In terms of teaching and what your NewGen instructor was trying to do with the class as a whole, it's very difficult to get skiers to have large lateral movements if they have no "up and down" movement.
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar,
Quote:
developing a more lateral component to your movement, which is an essential skill if you are do steer your skis by using their edges rather than twisting them
Sigh.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
forwood wrote:
The surprising thing is that the Skiing Skills videos: Beginners and Beyond & Piste Performance don't mention it.
I've not watched that for a few months but I'd be very surprised if it didn't talk about leg extension at the start of the turn and leg flexion at the end of the turn.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Sideshow_Bob wrote:
daehwons, thanks but I'm perfectly aware of cross-over, cross-under and cross-through. My point was quite simple, vertical movement in itself is not essential.
I wasn't saying you didn't..... I was trying to point out to 'everyone' that the up/down that is tought gets your legs moving in the right direction. I can't think of any way to teach someone to ski dynamically right away
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar wrote:
jimmjimm wrote:
Legs flexing and extending is totally different to the body moving up and down.
Lateral extension and flexion is very difficult to teach if a client can't move "up and down". I spend a lot of time trying to increase client's range of movement (whether that has a big lateral component or a big 'vertical' component [it should actually be at right angles to their skis rather than vertically up and down]), and it is something that I teach to beginners as soon as they are doing snowplough turns (it's very much a part of the BASI Central Theme progression).
Agree with Rob (the bits I followed anyway), but I think a big point generally missed in lesson post mortem is that the tactic rarely is the desired outcome, especially in higher end skiing. Being asked to go "up and down" in whatever respect is an acquisition stage of a much larger skillset. So, jimmjimm's quote is likely picking an irrelevant hole in the introduction to the concept rather than a cardinal rule.
As for being able to ski without flexion/extension, I'm sure new skis and tight sidecuts allow the user to get reasonable performance out of their skis - however, the question is if the user is in balance throughout the turn, or, if the user is in control at all times. It's easy to incline into the hill faster and faster, and hold on to the momentum until it brings you round. It's a pretty common issue, that gets smaller with higher skill levels rather than can be quick-fixed with a drill or two.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar, am getting on for the 4/5th time of watching those videos and it's not something that came across at all. Is why I asked the question! But now I know the lingo, I'll listen out again....
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
You guys might find this link helpful. In it I demonstrate 3 different forms of transition: Cross Over, Cross Under, and Cross Through.
Each of these transitions has it's individual advantages and shortcomings, and each is a legitimate option in modern skiing. forwood, the transition I believe your instructors were working on with you was Cross Through. In that transition the extension of the outside leg during the turn is crucial to get the Center of Mass back over the feet. One of the most common problems for people who use this transition is not getting the outside leg long and strong, and the pelvis remains perpetually in the back seat.
Let me know if you have any questions about these 3 transitions if you can't find the answer in what I've written about them in the link.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
for higher performance or most stuff off piste then the trouble will really begin.
the French instructor I had a private lesson with in January, with the specific objective of skiing off piste, spent the first half of the lesson on the piste, getting me to have much more dynamic vertical movement. Then in the powder, he laid down the line to follow, then stood at the bottom waving his stick up and down and yelling - when I managed to synchronise my movements with the stick, and the shouts, it worked. That wasn't all the time, though, and as soon as I "lost it" it went to pieces, though I generally stayed on my feet. I now try to practice that on piste at least once a day (as there's no powder to practise it in right now...).
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I think the critical thing to bear in mind is that there is no one single perfect way to ski - good instructors concentrate on building a skillset or toolkit which enable you to adapt in various circumstances. Each "school" will have its own foibles, gimmicks etc over what is the magic bullet. So it is fairly pointless saying "but school X/video X didn't show me me that".
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
fatbob, exactly right. Have as many skills available to you as you can develop, then use them in whatever way you want to get down the hill in safety and having fun.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
fatbob, rob@rar, Funny, we are only talking about this last night at my local slope.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
fatbob hits nail on head. I think this is probably the most confusing aspect of skiing for the beginner.
FastMan, thanks for posting the link. I had been following this thread, but had got a little confused with some of the terminology ... but the link has simplified things nicely.
I'd be interested to know in which situations you'd use each of the three options? I had a weeks worth of lessons in Tignes at the start of the season and the instructor was keen for me loose what he called the 'pop' between turns - which I was using to un-weight the skis. Instead, he had me working on a cross-through (although he didn't actually give it a name at the time). I certainly found that this made a massive improvement to my skiing ... but in what circumstances does a cross-over has it's benefits?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
abj wrote:
but in what circumstances does a cross-over has it's benefits?
Steeper terrain, and perhaps old-school Powder Ss where a lot of bounce helps.
I can't think of any way to teach someone to ski dynamically right away
Teach each turn as a fall* to the inside?
* with a catch at transition.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
comprex wrote:
daehwons wrote:
I can't think of any way to teach someone to ski dynamically right away
Teach each turn as a fall* to the inside?
* with a catch at transition.
Too intimidating for many beginners I think.
After all it is free
After all it is free
This has turned into the new inner tip lead thread. I understood the first few posts there and then it meandered off into incomprehensible technical territory. Is it wrong to just ski and not think about the technicalities of it all?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
queen bodecia, FastMan's link is truly not incomprehensible. For me, so long as someone explains to me WHY I'm doing something - which rob@rar and skimottaret unfailingly do, and as FastMan does on his videos, all in a manner which can be understood by a non-scientist - I'm up for giving anything a whirl. And I do think, though others are better placed to judge, that my skiing has improved as a result.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Thanks for that FastMan. Looking at your examples I think I'm actually doing the cross over but with not quite as much extension as you get there. Cross through looks cool. Would also like to know when it's more appropriate to use these different skills. If I were to guess. cross 'through' looks like its for fast downhill, 'under' for steeps and 'over' for cruising?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
My point was quite simple, vertical 
