 Poster: A snowHead
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What do you think of this new Dry Slope surface, does it live up to it's just like real snow claims??????????????
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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John Nike Leasure groups,s slope have started replacing their surfaces with PermaSnow, made by a nother part of the John Nike Group. I've tried the Nusery Slope at Swadlincote and it's not nice!!! No edge hold at all, makes 360s easy though, not really the point of nursery slopes. I'm down in Bracknell next week, so I thought I'd try out the slope there, only to find it's just been covered in Perma Snow. Anyone skied there recently, what's the surface like??????????????????
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is all getting mighty confusing because PermaSnow was originally an Australian artificial snow - super-cooled with the use of liquid gas - that was once demonstrated at Ayers Rock (at air temperatures of over 30C) and used on the world's first indoor snow slope in Adelaide.
Here's some info. on the new Perma-Snow, made by the Nike Group.
This was preceded by Snowflex, made by Briton Engineering, which I think is more widely installed. Info. here.
They're both continuous carpet-type ski surfaces, primarily made to reduce the risk of entrapment and injury. But they also make better moguls and other terrain features.
Another carpet-type surface made in Japan was AstroGelande. This was installed on at least one UK dry slope (the one I skied was near Nottingham, now defunct I think) many years ago.
I don't think these types of surfaces ever compete successfully with Dendix-style bristles, because the ski edges achieve less bite. Dendix is also pretty hard-wearing, so I don't know how well Perma-Snow and Snowflex compare on that front.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've skied on snowflex, and getting a grip is harder. But dendix annoys the hell out of me, cos there's always an edge or uneven bit to catch you out, or your poles get stuck it the stuff!
Real, liquid super-cooled snow sounds like a good alternative!
Snowlex, Dendix. Either way, I don't really like them. But it's better than nothing!
I think if they made the bristles on snowflex longer, the grip would be better,as they are about
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^that tall!
julia
p.s actually, probably even shorter!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Only second- (well third-, by the time it gets to you) hand info here, but backs up a bit what everyone else has said. The guy coaching us the week before last boards now at Bracknell, having got fed up with ski-racing. He reckoned it was great for "freeride", but commented that it would be completely useless for racing - I guess because the lack of grip you noticed. There was also a suggestion that they now come over to Aldershot for their race training sessions, but I can't confirm that (I'm only a newbie there - Aldershot that is)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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We have snowflex on our mogul slope ( Norfolk)which has been down for several years and has worn very well. A new intermediate slope is just being installed with it + the beginners slope has just been covered. The main slope is still and will almost certainly remain Dendix . The main reason that Snowflex is "useless for racing" is that you can not put poles in it! As far as I am aware the main consideration for going for Snowflex was on safety grounds and also because a large part of the redevelopment was funded by the lottery and the use of snowflex was part of the application.
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HI, i ski at Bracknell, and the new slope is "interesting". Certianly, the snow baorders love it. Not so sure about the majority of the skiiers.
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Well I tried it out last night. It's nasty!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edge hold isn't an issue on this stuff, you can't get any. The boarders seem to love it, as do the guys on twin tips. I've been in the hotel next to the slope for a week and the majority of people using the slope for open practice seem to be boarders.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My eldest is racing at Swadlincote in a couple of weeks on their last weekend with Dendix. It will be interesting to try out the nursery slope and see what it feels like. They lose their racing licence as soon as the new surface goes down, a pity because I like the slope and facilities.
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Jane L, no one has yet come up with a way of setting gates on the new surface as it is a solid material, unlike the dendix! So no where to poke the poles through. Am sure it must lose all affected slopes quite a bit of support and revenue.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks. There seems to be a huge entry list for the Swadlincote races, all sking there for the last time. I'm not sure how many skiers skied there otherwise though, all the adult skis are about 15 years old, not a carver in sight over 150cm, and these were clearly marked 'Junior Racing ONLY', so very difficult to borrow.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I skied at Gloucester the other day, and the top of their long slope seems to have snowflex on it. I thought it was much nicer to ski on than the dendix. Certainly faster - I didn't experience any major problems getting an edge, and felt I had a lot more "feel" as the surface gives when you pressure the ski just like the real thing. The pole problem is a poser though.
Why does everyone seem to think it's harder to ski on?
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easiski, the snowflex at Sheffield has a lot of metal "rails" just under the surface (probably where they connect the sheets), making it difficult to slow down. The edge of the ski digs onto the metal and you just slide (like if you were doing a rail in a snowpark)
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You know it makes sense.
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Elizabeth B, Sounds horrid Gloucester is just gras underneath I think.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Well, I went over to Bracknell, to ski on their PermaSnow surface, for the first time this morning. There is a race scheduled for there in 3 weeks time, and they've just got some poles to fit in the seams of the mats, so they had an open day to get others along to try it out. They had a race course out in the morning and freestyle toys out in the afternoon. I'll only comment on the race element, as I didn't stay for any of the baggy-trousers brigade ( ) as I'd had about 4 hours skiing today by then (Aldershot training before going over there) and I wanted my snap/dinner/lunch/luncheon (delete as your social class/geography requires  ).
OMG  ! I had a bit of a shock getting to grips with (or any grip on) the Dendix when I first started on that a year or so ago, and this was a very similar experience. If Dendix punishes your mistakes big time, then PermaSnow does so even more. However, once you could get over the initial shock, and really work your edges to carve the turns properly there was reasonable grip to be had, and it was possible to get down the course. The bottom few gates were a bit more widely spaced than those in the middle and you could really go for it there, and that felt good. Get low on the course though and try forcing a tighter turn to recover and you'll skid big time and you're completely lost. So it probably makes an even better training surface than Dendix, as you either do it right, or blow out. I'm not sure how much edge you can really put onto it though before you lose it sideways - one of the (pretty good) locals said it was much less than on Dendix - and the problem then is that if it does go you'll have virtually no chance of recovery.
The poles they had were a try-out of a specially designed adaptation of the normal Dendix type of pole. They worked pretty well fitting into the seams, it was possible to set out a believable course and there was plenty of opportunity for high-low adjuestment. There is of course little chance of sideways adjustment (unless you put them in the lateral seams, which wasn't the case today), so it puts a huge onus on course-setters getting it right first time, as adjusting one pole up or down the slope then really needs you to make the same adjustment to all the remaining poles. There were two major problems with the poles though. First, by the time I got there (about 11am), they'd had maybe 2 hours use and were already mostly leaning over at 45 degrees, so the base flex was too weak. That's probably a minor adjustment. The more serious problem though was that by maybe midday about 3 poles hade been bent quite seriously just below the flex joint and were unusable. Oh well, they are only a Mk 1 attempt, but clearly need some serious refinement - basically none of the poles were race-worthy after only 3 hours of pretty gentle use (none of us were attacking them at anything like the speed of the top 30 of even our regional racers).
Another problem on the PermaSnow seems to be durability. By the end of the session I was covered in plastic flour/fluff, from the ski edges grinding away at the plastic loops, and I understand this is typical. This matting has been down about 18 months, and they have already had to exchange one mat between the centre and edge of the slope because it was pretty much completely bald. There are several others in a pretty bad way too. It's going to be really interesting to see what the ruts will be like after maybe 300-500 race runs (it would be maybe 800 for a typical SRSA regional race, including practice) down the same line in 3 weeks time .
The other scare story with PermaSnow is the effect it has on the bases - do you like the smell of burning Ptex? Well I didn't find it THAT bad. Sure the bases heated up pretty quickly, so I did make sure I got a fresh layer of wax from the doormat at the top of the slope every run, and I would switch the skis between feet after about every 2 runs or so, so the more heavily used inside edges could then get a rest. After about 2 hours though the skis were really quite hot all the way through, and the ironed-on wax had pretty much stripped off for about a 3mm stripe away from the edge of the skis, for maybe half their length. Good time to stop I think.
In summary, from this brief experience, I think:
1) the surface is not as bad as it can be painted
2) it punishes less than perfect technique HUGELY
3) because of that I think it could be a very good training surface (and Bracknell skiers seem to be doing pretty well on the race series this year)
4) in a race context I think it could make a greater spread between the really good and the mediocre - but I've not seen how it would stand up to a really good racer attacking the surface
5) I'm really glad the Bracknell race has been decided to be a 'fun' event and a non-scoring race!
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Poster: A snowHead
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A similar discussion can be found on this thread:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=15486
The problem of overheating bases is even worse on Perma-snow than Dendix!!! Especially in turns in a certain direction! Some JNL slopes are having to re-sole their rental stock. Allegedly.
I know several SSE coaches that are tearing their hair out at the unsuitability of Perma-snow. Race skis are "too sharp" and are cutting the matting.
From the "ESRA" forum:
++++++++++++
I tried 'PermaSnow' some months ago at Swad along with several other coaches at a revalidation course. It was only on the nursery slope but I soon formed an opinion. I must admit that I was so surprised that I continued to ski on it many more times than my fellow coaches in order to be sure mine was not a 'transitional' reaction. I should add that the course leaders left the slope after 1 go.
I found the surface 'unskiable' in any enjoyable or useful sense. In short I found there was little grip in the start of the turn and then the ski tracked when the edge finally bit. I would compare it to skiing on boilerplate ice after it had received 2 inches of fresh snow which had been brushed into clumps so that there is no grip on the ice followed by sudden grip in the clumps.
Possibly ok for beginners (lesson 1 & 2) and maybe for boarders (ask a boarder). I cannot envisage this surface being successful in its present form. Please note that all this assumes that the Swad nursery slope represents a typical representation of the surface. Even if there was a way of fixing poles I would not like to race on it.
It skis very differently to SnowFlex which I think will be raceable as soon as there is a way of fixing the poles.
+++++++++++++
From "MySnowSports.com":
+++++++++++++
The biggest problem was losing the abiltity to set courses. As well as this the surface was affecting the way in which the kids were skiing. One problem is that it is very difficult to add/remove pressure from the skis effectively. Most kids were just doing riding the edges top to bottom and not skiing effectively. It is also very difficult to skid the skis which again causes lots of problems.
Over time the kids have improved but I would say that the surface has slowed down there development as skiers.
We now train at Aldershot and Wycombe to give the guys a chance to run some gates and ski on dendix so that they have a chance in races.
+++++++++++++
The decision to lay the surface is a business and insurance one. The plus side is that snowboarders and freestyle skiers love the surface as it is much nicer to fall on so at least some people have benefited from it.
Interesting article from "Racer Ready":
http://www.mysnowsports.com/main_cpg/News/article/sid=278.html
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm building a new dry ski slope in Portugal. I'm thinking on lay down permasnoe surface. Can you give me more information on alternative surfaces?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I really must try Permasnow and Snowflex. I can try Permasnow at Bracknell but where's the nearest decent Snowflex slope? Anyone know?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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slikedges, there's a bit of Snowflex at the top of one of the slopes at Gloucester, but it changes to Dendix half way down. It gives an opportunity for comparison, but it is not entirely fair on the Snowflex because of the obstacles (the Snowflex is in effect used for a "snow park" and appears to do that job well).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pvfernandes, welcome to snowHeads! 
Not sure how much experience there is of running dry slopes here, I know Yoda works at a dry slope - most people here will be users.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Derek Jackson, thanks, not too far to travel for a few minutes of making a fool of myself, might pay a visit. Any of the Hampshire sH any comment on Snowflex fabled to pave the slopes of Soton?
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pvfernandes, I found an interesting discussion with people who had boarded on all three surfaces, on the Snowboard Club UK site, I think by sticking Dendix Permasnow and Snowflex into Google/Yahoo (ah here it is). Mostly board rather than ski biased, but may be useful for your research.
slikedges, I think there's Snowflex at Calshot nr So'ton, but it's only about 40m long. The slopes at the main So'ton sports centre are Dendix. My brother goes moderately frequently to the Warmwell nr Dorchester (Dorset, not Oxon unfortunately for you) which may be the closest full (110m) Snowflex slope to you. I think Slowflex is more common in the frozen north - there's more info in that SCUK thread.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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GrahamN, thanks, not worth going too far as I'm likely just going to embarass myself there 
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slikedges, I should be at Gloucester this Wednesday evening and probably also the following Wednesday because my daughter is on a course there. I am only allowed to ski on the other slope to her  , but she is mostly on the shorter slope.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Derek Jackson, sorry, conference in picturesque City of Brum most of this week, but will post if going over there some time
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Anyone wanting to venture north will find both dendix and snowflex at Aberdeen (Garthdee) snowsports centre. The nursery slope and the 'alpine' terrain slope are snowflex and the main ski slope is dendix. Both have their pros and cons but it is good to be able to use both. I think of the artificial slopes i have visited that Aberdeen probably has the best cared for surfaces so if you do genuinely want to compare the behaviour of both types of matting it is a good place to go. You can then take the age and maintenance issues out of your compariso.
One of the benifits of a continous carpet surface is the ability to provide a degree of under surface cushioning. An although I did recently break my arm on snowflex I would still rather be 'bumping into' it rather than dendix.
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All 'White' outdoor artificial slope surfaces turn into a grubby grey eyesore
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That is true if you do not maintain your slopes and you dont add treatment to you sprinkler systems, but it is possible to keep your slopes looking clean and cared for.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I ski (that's what I call it others may have a different opinion!) at Glos every now and again and it's always a relief when I get off the Snowflex and onto the Dendix.
Pete
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Poster: A snowHead
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PeteMan, exactly my feelings whenever I've been there too.
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