 Poster: A snowHead
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Lizzard, oh get lost yourself, of course the waiter doesn't think that, get real, he's just snooty about his precious language. No one gets huffy if a tourist doesn't speak Hungarian in Hungary or Japanese in Japan. Sure it's a nicety to learn to say hello/goodbye/excuse me/thanks etc but no one will be obnoxious 'cos you can't/don't. Why should France be any different. French Canada I understand is the same. Frite on shoulder about the language, if you ask me... 
And to the manners snobs here, I have impeccable manners, I just think that if one is in the service industry one ought not be so childishly sensitive - can't afford to be. Having money doesn't buy the right to be rude but it often buys the choice (this being what money usually affords) to behave as you like and get away with it. Not justifying that of course.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| slikedges wrote: |
| And to the manners snobs here |
Nothing snobby about good manners imo.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Am I the only one to be suspicious of the good manners of people who boast how well-mannered they are? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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my best bit of "Engleutsch" this year occurred at the nice traditional Austrain restuarant at the Kitzsteinhorn glacier in Kaprun - we had had hot choc and cake eth day befor and decided we woudl come back on our last day for a more special last day lunch. Except it was packed. So cue standing around and looking for people who were likely to be leaving soonest. Found a group of 3 who were finishing off drinks etc. i asked in my best Engleutsch "Entschuldigen sie bitter, gehen sie / leben sie ?" which prompted a nod.
So i stand ready as close to / "defending" the table without being overbearing, holding 2 rucksacks and 3 jackets while my wife went off with my daughter to the toilet so as to avoid what was next to come (must be a feminine 6th sense).
As soon as 1 of eth party stood up with a jacket in hand, people appeared from everywhere, out of cracks in the floor and ceiling, and i am sure at least 1 of them just appeared a la Star Trek, all vying for this little table.
At which i point i said in not very hushed tones, and with a pronounced germanic brusqueness : "Nein ! Ich warte erst !"
Now i am sure the grammar/spelling etc. is probably seriously flawed, but it stopped everyone in their tracks - any my best guess is that with their such poor language skills, they actually presumed i was a local.
Whatever, got me my dinner 
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slikedges, and how often have French people actually been snooty to you because you can't be bothered to speak French? Frankly I think it's a myth - I've certainly never seen it. And it's still rude to make no effort whatsoever, even if the natives put up with it.
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TBH from my experience it's the French who are mostly rude/arrogant. In any service situation in either Britain or France then I would always start with a Hello or Bonjour. It's almost a given that the waiters in France are grumpy, and I'm pleasantly surprised when I come across a cheerful one. In Courchevel they especially treat you like an inconvenience when you turn up at a restaurant (other than in the lovely Grands Alpes).
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Maybe I've just been extremely lucky but I have never come across a rude or grumpy waiter in France. I would certainly have no trouble in making a point of it probably by reflecting it via the service charge and not returning. A couple of brusque lifties maybe but never rude. I have only ever walked out of a shop once because the snotty woman got impatient when I began to ask for help with buying gloves in French  That was an upmarket ski shop in Les Gets and the prices would probably have been prohibitive anyway.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Shimmy Alcott, I've never noticed that either. 
I think you're all mad.
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Lizzard, aaah, but are we?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Shimmy Alcott, I'm not particularly grumpy and I've never encountered undue rudeness in France either (except in Paris - which itself is no worse than London, or probably any other city.) I did, however, encounter a lot of rudeness from moneyed English people when working for a travel company in Switzerland.
One of the things I love about France - and French waiters here - is that everybody in the catering industry, waiters included, are not servile and are proud of what they do. And if we're talking about grumpy waiters, I'd say, as a Londoner, please bring back all those French waiters of yesteryear, they are a lot friendlier than their eastern European successors.
I feel a trip to South Kensington coming over me. There are quite a lot of French people living around me, because there are one or two French schools in the area, but being in South Ken sometimes feels like being in France itself. Lovely.
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Shimmy Alcott, must just be all the mega resorts you visit. I skied a more local resort last year and found the people to be very friendly
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You know it makes sense.
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arv, I've only ever skied in mega resorts in France (although I've travelled all over the country at other times).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Lou wrote: |
| slikedges wrote: |
| And to the manners snobs here |
Nothing snobby about good manners imo. |
A manners snob is not someone who has good manners but is considered snobby (though this phenomenon does exist with the reverse snobbery peculiarly rife in British society). A manners snob is someone who thinks that his particular take on good manners is better than someone else's perfectly good but alternative take. Take a wee moment to understand what you are reading imo.
Lizzard, as I've posted before, it has long been my habit to inflict my appalling French on the natives and I really quite enjoy doing so. Nevertheless I have often in the past withessed vexatious behaviour towards British non-Francophones from French receptionists, waiters, sales assistants, counter clerks who quite plainly know rather more English than they are letting on and could certainly be a damn sight more helpful and friendly anyway. They're learning though and not a moment too soon - these days I often get addressed in English before I can even mispronounce bonnn-jaw.
Hurtle, no more so than I being the only one to be suspicious of the grumpiness of people who feel the need to dispell any notion that they may be particularly grumpy
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Poster: A snowHead
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| slikedges wrote: |
| A manners snob is someone who thinks that his particular take on good manners is better than someone else's perfectly good but alternative take. |
Oh I see, like someone who might write "I have impeccable manners"?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rayscoops, yes, I think it's true that the French do appreciate people making the effort to speak their language. I'm not sure if this slips over into them being rude if you don't, maybe it does. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| mr ted wrote: |
| Why do the french, austrian and pretty much evertone else thinkg the british are rude. I would like to start a "be nice to to everyone else in the world thread" |
In my experience the Austrians in general don't believe Brits to be rude.
Warning stereotype .......
Us Brits tend to have a wider range of 'expression'. In which other culture could you insist that people queue up at 9:00 am while later that evening you are totally sh!tfaced and wouldn't be able to stand up in a queue if there was one? We are know for being able to have a good laugh but we can be volatile after a drink. The Russians are picking up a worse reputation, they are seen as arrogant and volatile but rich. As with other cultures we are generally stereotyped by the actions of our countrymen/women who make an impact.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 8-02-10 10:12; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
perhaps there is something in this argument that the French can be a bit rude if you can not speak their language
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More likely they just feel awkward trying to talk to people who blatantly don't understand a word they're saying, and this gets interpreted as rudeness. I don't know anyone who has a negative opinion of the ritish and their effors at language - quite the opposite, generally.
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I have found in France that waiter's previously good English often disappears once there is a bill dispute.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
babbling fast west Wales accented English
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ahh, we be avin trouble with the moonrakers and thern from levels
but they all speak English when it comes to selling the mangel-wurzels 
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rayscoops, my hubby speaks appalling French,he is the first to admit that he finds learning it very difficult. He's tried several online and CD based courses, and a two day intensive course with a French teacher. He doesn't find the French rude at all.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Colin B, likewise my French disappears when faced with beggars, people telling me I can't park there etc etc. It's a perk of speaking two languages.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Speaking fast northern English has saved me a couple of times when dealing with the Austrian Police regarding minor traffic offences.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 8-02-10 11:10; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Lizzard, My french isn't actually too bad but does let me down in some of those situations.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rayscoops, interesting. Reminds me of being in Canada for the first time and asking the friend I was with (English, but has lived in Montreal for a long time) what language was being spoken just behind me, in a mountain restaurant in Whistler. I thought it was one of the eastern European languages. It was in fact French! I couldn't understand a word of it, the French Canadian accent was so strong.
Then there's another confusing issue, which is - in good faith - speaking the language the native doesn't want to hear. Thus, I was once given deliberately incorrect directions when I stopped to ask the way in Brussels. I spoke in French, to be polite as I thought, but didn't realise that I'd strayed into a Flemish commune. Black mark earned for speaking in French! Similarly, I was advised not to speak Russian in Riga, unless I was spoken to in that language first: the city is stuffed with people speaking Russian, I heard it all around me, but of course the Latvians/Latvian speakers take a dim view of this influx. Actually, I had the experience many years ago, of being given the cold shoulder in a pub in rural Wales - not too far from St David's if I recall correctly - because our group was speaking in English. Does that still happen in parts of Wales?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DB wrote: |
| Speaking fast northern English has saved me a couple of times when dealing with the Austrian Police regarding minor traffic offences. |
I tried that once when I was stopped for speeding in France. However, when the cop pulled out a battered dictionary and it became clear he was going to stay the course, however long it took, I miraculously found a few words of French!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think we should all start speaking chinese!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Lou wrote: |
| slikedges wrote: |
| A manners snob is someone who thinks that his particular take on good manners is better than someone else's perfectly good but alternative take. |
Oh I see, like someone who might write "I have impeccable manners"? |
Perhaps when I said I was a manners snob I should have ellaborated. I'm not some hoity toity know all. And people can do what they like and talk how thy like as long as they are pleasant etc etc, They dont have to follow some silly victorian etiquet. However, when they barge past you as you are patiently waiting then I'll say something. If I'm in a restaurant and they are rude (I dont care if they dont fall all over me) then they dont get a tip and I generally think 2x about going back.
I can give you a good example of what I would call good manners.
I used to be a taxt driver in Loch Lomond. It was common place for drivers to simply ping the "boot open" button on their car and let little old ladies struggle getting their shopping out of the boot.
I didn't do that. I opened the boot and lifted their shopping up to the door. I'd never let a 70-80 year old struggle like that.
cheers
bob
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I guess that, if you work in a service industry, you eventually get to realise that there are polite people of every nationality, as well as rude ones. I may have posted this before (stop me if you've heard it... ) but I was staying in a small hotel in Verbier three years ago and our table was sandwiched between two tables of Russians. One lot was very ill-behaved most of the time and, one evening, one of their party was exceptionally rude to a waiter. A bit later, the people on the other side, a quiet and unassuming couple, came over and apologised to our party for the unpleasant behaviour of their compatriots, of whom they said they felt horribly ashamed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Speaking fast northern English has saved me a couple of times when dealing with the Austrian Police regarding minor traffic offences. |
I tried that once when I was stopped for speeding in France. However, when the cop pulled out a battered dictionary and it became clear he was going to stay the course, however long it took, I miraculously found a few words of French! |
I inflict my French on the French people all the time and it's generally appreciated. Sometimes though, you talk to someone whose English is about the same level and who would rather practice their English. A sort of battle ensues when both parties are stubborn
When with several friends (who all went very quiet and were no help at all  ) at Geneva Airport a few years back, we ended up on the French side, having just checked in and gone through on the Swiss side. Still not sure how we did that, we had gone to the duty-free downstairs) but it was left to me to speak to the French official to ask if we could go back through. I tried hard to explain politely what had happened in French and then some English as he didn't appear to want to understand. "You are in France. We speak French in France" (in French).
Ended up going to one of the car hire desks who then, very helpfully, pointed us in the right direction. Happily that sort of thing hasn't happened since. Trouble is, altough my French has improved since then, you just can't argue with these people
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| glasgowcyclops wrote: |
| I used to be a taxt driver in Loch Lomond. It was common place for drivers to simply ping the "boot open" button on their car and let little old ladies struggle getting their shopping out of the boot. |
Did they even help them through the air lock?
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Hurtle, I mortally offended a French Canadian last year by asking him if he'd rather speak English, as I assumed French wasn't his native language. My colleagues wet themselves laughing.
Flamands frequently speak not a word of anything other than Flemish, which I find a bit odd considering they live in a bilingual country.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard, I guess they could be making a point.
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Lou, my husband and a restaurant owner in Monetier have an agreement that hubby will practise his French, and he will practise his English.
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FAQ
) order my beer in the local language and then have to re-order in Englsh to avoid getting 25 beers !!
I am not sure who was being rude but it was a good laugh 
