 Poster: A snowHead
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Went to a meeting at eldest daughter's school regarding skiing trip to Tremblant at Easter. It was aimed mainly at children and parents with no experience of skiing and they gave good sensible advice about clothing and accessories...but (and I forgot to ask  ) no mention was made of wearing helmets. I know that most European ski schools advise wearing helmets, and we are keen for our children to wear them, but what is the stance of ski schools in Canada?
My personal view is that I want my daughter to wear a helmet at all times (in lessons and in free time) and when we are away as a family, we can keep an eye on this. On a school trip, I realise that enforcing this will be difficult, especially when her peers may not be similarly protected. I'm trying to educate my children that the helmet is necessary to protect them from falls AND other piste users.
Has anybody else sent their kids off with strict instructions about wearing helmets at all times, or else?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hywel,difficult topic,as you obviously realise.Sorry,no exp of Canada,but someone will know.My son went to Saas Fee last Easter on a school trip and,as far as I'm aware,no one wore a helmet.At the time I considered what stance to take,and eventually decided to let it sort itself out.I didn't want to pressure my son into being 'different' to his companions and,given that they were with qualified British Instructors,and that no parents were accompanying them,I didn't make an issue of it.The reality being that,once they were there,what could I do  From your post I judge that your daughter,like my son,is already a capable skier.You can do little more than ask her.Its probably unrealistic,and unfair,to expect others to enforce your rules.If your daughter is the sort of person who will follow your instructions fine.If not,what can you actually do about it?Anyway,she's probably more likely to have a bump charging around the hotel with her friends
As a family,we all wear helmets.I insist on it.It is the right thing to do but,it has to be said,kids are not overly enthusiastic.I'm sure she will have a fantastic time;and don't you just wish you were going as well  Our kids get all the best trips 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hywel, im 22, lil bruv is 13, and we're going skiing with our mum at the weekend. She used a delightful technique adopted by parents worldwide, commonly know as fear and threats!
1) Trap your kids in a confined space such as a moving vehicle
2) go on at length about various "deaths" youve read up on that could have been prevented by wearing a helmet
3) Threaten kids that if seen without a helmet you'll take their ski pass off them
Ive never worn a helmet before, and to be honest I was their biggest critic - what with ability to ruin hair etc, but I have "seen the light" so to speak
Tips on getting your daughter to wear one- its going to be difficult, teachers will prob be too busy trying to makes sure no one runs amok!
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Hywel, having taught hundreds of kids to ski in Scotland (no head injuries, despite loads of fixed solid obstacles and rocks etc.), and studied ski injury data for over a decade, I'd say that it's not worth the worry. Kids certainly get injured on school ski trips, usually when unsupervised, but very rarely to the head.
Knee injuries are the predominant problem.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My 13 yr old son went on a school trip this year. He is a very good skier indeed, but he always wears a helmet. I don't think he has ever skied without one in 10 years so wearing/not wearing was never a point of debate.
We bought him a new helmet before he went, which was the right solution because the ski hire place they used in Les2Alpes didn't rent helmets(!).
Several other boys had their own, but the majority did not.
Good job he did: came back with the helmet looking very "used".
"What happened here?"
"Oh, very icy on the glacier, I got knocked over by Patrick and hit my head on a rock, I was fine though. Got any cake?"
The nonchalance of a 13 year old!
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rungsp, that's why kids ski so fast when they're young it's called the zero fear factor, as we get older we realise just how dangerous things could be.
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I'm a rather old kid at 56 (but having no kids of my own I can afford to be), but having followed the discussions here recently on helmets I was skiing with a guide who wore one. As he led off down a couloir like this but narrower (that one was last year), with high rocky walls, the thought grew that my skull is fragile and my brain is essential equipment.
I think that encouraging kids to see helmets as normal is a very good idea. I may join them next year.
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The ski school in Sunshine (Banff, Canada) does not insist on helmets for kids but all (or certainly almost all) kids wear them in ski school. In fact the great majority of people under 20 wear them and quite a few older people; an adult wearing a helmet does not attract the funny looks it does in Europe (not that I care).
It might be worth having a word with the teachers about it. My guess is that, unless your daughter is very different from my kids, 'strict instructions' from her parents will not in themselves increase the likelihood of a helmet being worn. I know that there are differing views about the desirability of helmets, but mine is that a school should insist on kids wearing them. Helmets are so universal among kids in Canada that with a bit of effort by the teachers on the first day or two, I reckon that the kids will almost all be happier with them than without, given their desire to conform to their peers (especially as most of the Canadian kids will be better skiers than most of your daughter's party).
Our kids (aged 10) have never skied without a helmet and regard wearing one as perfectly normal; they can't understand why my wife and I didn't use them until last year.
David Goldsmith's point is a good one, though. There's not a high risk of injury, and I suppose that if we let the kids go off without us, we have to accept that they'll do what they do.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 3-03-05 11:56; edited 1 time in total
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This seems to be a resort -by-resort thing; until I read this thread, I had no ideas there were children out there NOT wearing helmets - in the 3V a child without a helmet is noticeably rare, and adults wearing them not uncommon. Our children have always worn them and regard wearing them as normal (on plastic in the UK as well). My husband bought one earlier this year and I may well be joining him in the ranks of helmeted adults (especially if it stays this cold!).
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Ski school in Whistler recommends all children wear helmets, and has them available to rent.
I think you should certianly ask the school if they will be insiting on this. Hope she has a great trip.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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A lot of Canadian ski schools (not sure about in Quebec, but certainly in BC) offer complementary helmets for kids, not just for lessons, but for the duration of stay. So it may be that they will be getting them supplied anyway.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hywel, I'm astonished that your daughter's school does not insist on helmets. I think all kids should wear them (and most of us older kids too). I insist that all children under 13 who ski with me wear them - no helmet, no lesson. It may be true that head injuries are rare, but one is enough isn't it? In addition when a small person and a larger person collide the small person is more likely to be injured (and the larger people don't always stop to check).
Come on all parents of kids going on school hols - insist, make a fuss. Anyway it's really "cool" to wear a helmet now - all the top freeriders and freestylers do, and also the racers. Only the rank amateurs wear coloured broccoli on their heads - seriously uncool!!
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I'm damn glad I was wearing one last Sunday. Rather a crack in the 75 euro helmet I was wearing at the time than in my head.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hywel, I'm just back from Tremblant, I'm not sure about compulsion but all the kids in ski school wore helmets. The kids in our group, aged from 4 to 13 all had lessons and all were able to hire them locally, infact from the same room that sorts out ski school lessons.
It's also damn cold over there, so a balaclava, helmet and goggles are needed if you want to keep warm. Quite a few people had face masks too, and I wore thermals and inner gloves for the first time in 20 odd years skiing (including Scotland). I found out later that it was unseasonably warm when we were there too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, free riders, freestylers and ski racers cool? Now, that could start a whole other discussion.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks everyone for the words of wisdom. I will have a chat with my daughter and give her my opinion. I realise that having friends around not wearing a helmet may make her self-conscious. The dilemma is that all her friends are beginners whereas she is more likely to ski the tougher runs and benefit more from wearing a helmet. I don't think I would ask any of the adults to enforce my wishes, although I might make a non-judgmental enquiry with the lead teacher.
I suppose I have to trust my daughter in the end. Afterall, years of being told to buckle up in the car have made my children do this automatically and I never need to check when they travel with other drivers.
And YES, I would love to be going skiing for 9 days - jammie kids.... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hywel, you want me to mail her for you? You're her Dad and as uncool as they come, whereas I'm seriously cool so she'd listen to me 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ise,
Ah yes, that age old rite of passage......your mum and dad know absoluetly nothing, they listen to stupid 'old' music and they won't let you do anything cool, such as drink alcopos and watch 18 videos....
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I think that we have to put the case for wearing helmets when skiing into perspective. It is not an open and shut case as many seem to think. The case for seatbelts reducing severity and increasing survivability of injuries was overwhelming, hence it became law. Similarly the case for motor cyclists wearing full face heavy duty helmets is overwhelming. The case for lightweight helmets when cycling, skiing, and snowboarding is not so clear. Many people rely on anecdotal evidence, but this is just not reliable to assess a safety intervention, especially when considering making something compulsory. There is some experimental evidence that wearing a helmet may reduce severity of head injuries, but that this may be at a cost of an increase in the incidence and severity of cervical spine injuries. There is also evidence that many people are wearing a poorly fitted helmet, which is not likely to do any good at all. Most ski instructors advise people to wear helmets, but I would say that just because someone is a ski instructor, does not mean that they possess the appropriate critical appraisal skills and public health knowledge to give good, informed advice in this area. In most cases, people have made the assumption that because it is good for small children to wear helmets, then by extrapolation, it must be good for all of us to wear them. This logic is flawed, as there are fundamental differences between the accidents that children may have when compared to adults, firstly childrens skulls are softer, and secondly, there is less kinetic energy involved when they have a crash, as they weigh less and are likely to be skiing at a slower speed. Children can get a significant head injury from a comparatively low energy injury, and the limited extra amount of protection that a lightweight helmet can give may well be vital in these cases. In adults the amount of energy needed for a significant headinjury is in general much higher, and the amount of protection offered by a helmet in these cases is possibly less likely to be effective.
If you choose to wear a helmet, do so in the knowledge that it may not actually be doing you any good, and there is a possibility that it may actually be harmful, we just don't know for sure at the moment. If someone else chooses not to, they're not being recklessly stupid, and they're not necessarily ignorant of the dangers, and I do not feel that they should be compelled to against their will. Of course this doesn't apply to younger children who do not have mature skulls, and so should have to wear helmets at all times.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A question for you medics out there.
I wear a helmet mainly because when I fall over (usually about once per hol) I often hit my head hard on the snow and feel completely shitty for a few hours afterwards. I'm 6'2" and weigh about 17 stone, so there's a lot of energy being absorbed somewhere, especially if I'm going at any speed. I took the view that this could not be a good thing and that a helmet might help. Needless to say, since I started to wear a helmet last season, I haven't fallen over (sit downs on steep moguls don't count).
Am I right in thinking that a helmet will offer me useful protection against the falls I have described, or are they only useful if you hit something really hard like a rock or ice? I don't mind looking a prat of there's a benefit, but I do otherwise.
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Rather suspect that the evidence will show that if you do hit something really hard and imovaable - (tree, rock, etc), at any kind of speed, then a helmet isn't actually going to be any guarantee, in the same way that motorcyclists, etc do still suffer injuries in accidents. But it will reduce the likelihood of injury, and the severity of such injury which you might otherwise incur. Look at it the other way - wearing the helmet is a lot less likely to injure anything other than your pride, than not wearing one and hitting something is.
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Okanagan, in the recent large study published in the BMJ, there was a suggestion that wearing a helmet increased the number and severity of neck injuries, we are unsure of the reasons for this.
richmond, as mentioned in my post above, wearing a helmet may protect against head injuries, but it may be at a cost of an increased risk of other types of severe injury.
I wear a helmet myself when I'm skiing hard, not when I'm just having a laugh, but the reasons that I do are not particularly logical ones, mostly revolving around peer group pressure. If someone asks me for my medical opinion on wearing a helmet, I have to say that it is not quite as clearcut as everyone seems to think that it is, and at the moment we just don't know the answer for sure.
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Kramer,
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| I wear a helmet myself when I'm skiing hard, not when I'm just having a laugh |
IMO wrong way round! It's when you are just 'having a laugh' that you are more likely to do something silly or catch an edge because you aren't concentrating. Whereas when 'skiing hard', you are more likely to be concentrating on the task in hand and thus are less likely to be caught out.
There's a lot more to the pros and cons of helmet debate that the physical protection they provide: e.g. risk homeostatis says that by wearing a helmet you feel more invulnerable and hence take more risks, thereby increasing the likelihood of an accident and injury.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't have any kids, but if I did I would be stunned if a school would take my child/children without insisting on helmets for all or you don't go, and if not worn ski pass will be confiscated till child see's the light.
If my child had an accident while under someone elses supervision and the child received head injuries I would be looking at taking the people concerned to the cleaners if they had not been willing to enforce helmet use after I had previously raised my concerns.
The fact that any teacher will even consider taking children skiing without head protection would have me wondering just how suitable these people are to do this if they are not proactively trying to reduce the liability of risk to themselves in the case of an accident.
The schooll can hire a batch of helmets at any of the companies that specialise in school trip gear/clothing hire so cost should be a non issue.
Has anyone here sent a child on ski trip where wearing a lid was enforced?
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RobW, I can't remember the last time I had a fall when just having a laugh, when I'm skiing hard I fall more frequently, therefore I don't see much point in wearing a helmet when I'm just having a laugh.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My daughter aged 12 is off to Grenossy this Easter with her school and helmets are compulsery for all skiers including teaching staff whilst on the trip. The helmets are all being hired here in the U.K. and fitted and labelled and then taken by the school and then reallocated on arrival. They are to be used at all times whilst on the slopes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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nicky, Give your daughter's school a gold star! 
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, my kids school have stopped thier ski trip because of safety issues. I did suggest helmets, but was told it was more for the risk of litigation than anything else (of fthe record of course)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Kramer,
If that's your experiance, fine. But don't assume this (or the opposite!) applies to others. For some reason, I find I fall over far more on green runs than on blacks or on serious off piste.
rockyrobin,
Has skiing become so much dangerous in the past X years?? Previously schools went skiing - and helmets weren't even thought about. Would you prefer that kids didn't go skiing at all??
Helen Beaumont
Exactly. Safety 'concerns' have got in the way of reality. Wrap all kids up in cotton wool and let them die of inactivity/boredom.
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Poster: A snowHead
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RobW, Your right, skiing is no more dangerous than it was when I was a child, but even then in the early 80's I had a kiddies ski helmet and a few others I skied with also had them provided by their parents.
Different times, different values. The way things have changed now with our appetite for sueing each other for the smallest slight I would feel sorry for anyone being responsible for the safe keeping of someone elses child.
I did notice when I was at Glenshee earlier this week that all the kiddies on the beginners slope were wearing helmets so presume that Glenshee's Ski School probably insist on the helmets to cover themselves.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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RobW, I made no assumptions. You told me that I was wearing my helmet at the wrong time, I told you my reasons.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kramer,
Sorry if it came over as trying to tell you. I did stateIn My [/b]Opinion (and experience!). You are perfectly willing to express the opposite opinion - as you have done.
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| Kramer wrote: |
The case for lightweight helmets when cycling, skiing, and snowboarding is not so clear. Many people rely on anecdotal evidence, but this is just not reliable to assess a safety intervention, especially when considering making something compulsory.
I'm not so sure about that. On Snowheads alone sources/links have been provided to studies that on balance weigh in favour of wearing a helmet. Articles in the press have reinforced the message, along with in-resort safety campaigns based on the industry's own research. Some people may indeed rely on anecdotal evidence, but my impression is that most people are trying to make a properly reasoned decision based on more than anecdotal evidence, inasfar as this is possible with the data available to date.
There is some experimental evidence that wearing a helmet may reduce severity of head injuries, but that this may be at a cost of an increase in the incidence and severity of cervical spine injuries.
The most recent Hagel study makes a point of stating that there is insufficient data to make a clear judgment on this, as far as I understood its conclusions: "The effect of helmet use on neck injuries is less clear. Although we found no statistically significant estimates for neck injury and no evidence of effect modification by age, our sensitivity analysis suggests an increased risk of neck injuries with helmet use." This contrasts considerably with the far more categorical conclusion that "Wearing a helmet while skiing or snowboarding may reduce the risk of head injury by 29% to 56%—that is, for every 10 people who wear helmets, three to six may avoid head injuries. This may even be an underestimate if, as in cycling, the helmets were worn incorrectly or were in poor condition."
There is also evidence that many people are wearing a poorly fitted helmet, which is not likely to do any good at all.
I have not seen specific evidence, and certainly no figures. My experience is that most people try a number of helmets to ensure a good fit. And I would take issue somewhat with the assertion that a helmet that is poorly fitted (to what extent, by the way?) is not doing "any good at all". I have seen no mention of this in the Hagel report. Indeed it could well be better than nothing in a sizeable percentage of low impact accidents, particularly where torque injuries are not incurred.
.../... In most cases, people have made the assumption that because it is good for small children to wear helmets, then by extrapolation, it must be good for all of us to wear them.
I see no evidence for this statement.
This logic is flawed, as there are fundamental differences between the accidents that children may have when compared to adults, firstly childrens skulls are softer, and secondly, there is less kinetic energy involved when they have a crash, as they weigh less and are likely to be skiing at a slower speed.
You've lost me a little. Is the argument that as adults *in theory* sustain more minor head injuries in the event of a fall, therefore a helmet is redundant? And are you saying that it is not the case that at a certain (variable) age a majority of children actually begin skiing faster than the 'average' adult? The majority of 12/13+ year olds I see on the slopes don't conform to the slower skier description!
.../...
If you choose to wear a helmet, do so in the knowledge that it may not actually be doing you any good, and there is a possibility that it may actually be harmful, we just don't know for sure at the moment.
I think that is hardly an accurate reflection of the weight of evidence and conclusions presented to date in the various studies.
If someone else chooses not to, they're not being recklessly stupid, and they're not necessarily ignorant of the dangers, and I do not feel that they should be compelled to against their will. Of course this doesn't apply to younger children who do not have mature skulls, and so should have to wear helmets at all times.
I agree completely with your final para.
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PG, a well crafted argument.
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Hywel, Coming back to your original post, I skied with my children in Tremblant over New Year 2000/2001. As far as I remember helmets were compulsory for kids lessons. Up until then our children had never worn helemts but since then they have (and I am joining them this year).
Tremblant was very very cold Would advise plenty of thermals etc. The "warmest" day was -9C but most of the time was less than -15C.
The other thing to bear in mind about Tremblant is that several of the more fun runs are through the trees and generally the combination of trees heads and speed are not good.
PG, thanks for quoting the Hagel study.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think these days that helmets for kids especially those in school groups are an excellent idea, whilst I feel that skiing has got easier and safer in terms of equipment what has made it more dangerous is the huge increase in the number of people skiing. To make the point driving down the M1 at top speed just after it had been finished would have presented you with few if any problems as there was hardly anyone on it, try doing that now with faster cars and more traffic and you will have an accident
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D G Orf, to pursue your analogy further, very few people had cars that could sustain high speeds in 1959, but they are very common now, and often in the hands of people who can't or won't control the speed. Exactly the same with modern-day ski equipment.
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FAQ
