 Poster: A snowHead
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Just back from Courchevel where my 9 and 7 year old progressed to cruising reds quite well. Now I am planning next year and want my 3 1/2 year old to be in a kiddie ski school, any ideas? I am considering Austria for the small, personal touch.
Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Matthew Way, Austria or possibly Switzerland would probably be good choices, look for somewhere that has a kindergarten next to the beginner slopes as many very small children can't ski for long before needing warming up, some resorts cater fo this by incorperating ski school with kindergarten meaning you can leave them there all day with no worries, my favorite location of Wengen is one example, kids beginner slopes right in the middle of the village, and no real traffic to speak of makes it very safe
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Matthew Way, Ski Esprit normally do ski school for 3 year olds although the local ski kindergarten option will probably be loads cheaper.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My 2d's worth.....................
If I had a chance to step back to when my Son started going to ski school/kindergarden at 3 I would not do what I chose to do then again.
We started at 3 in Verbier, then in subsequent years used schools in La Plagne, Val d'Isere and St. Anton. At 5 we went to Stowe in the US and the ski school and level of care for him was just fabulous in comparison to the mediocre European offerings we had experienced. Used Stowe 2 years running and last year used the school at Panorma in Canada which was equally as good as Stowe.
He is now an accomplished skier of 9 years old who does not go to ski school but has 2 or 3 one to one private lessons a week - much better value in terms of improving his skiing and his level of enjoyment.
CP
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just come back from Saas Grund. Was very impressed with the ski school there. The 3 yr old in the party had private lessons and got on very well. There was a kindergarten group that cqatered for this age as well.
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Since N.America has raised its head, Banff has excellent child care facilities, on the slopes. They arrange 1 or 2 hours of lessons each day for kids if required, I think from age 3.
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Depends whether you want childcare or ski lessons. At 3, if you bet everything on the child learning to ski you could be dissapointed. With my 2 older boys (now 5 and 4) their skiing really took off age 4. Both started at 3 with Ski Esprit. My daughter will be 3 next winter. We will put her into a ski kindergarten and see what happens but we wont push her to ski until the year after.
I agree that for technical improvement, private lessons may be best but at least in a group lesson, the children can have fun skiing with other kids.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It's a long way to go, but Big White and Silver Star in Canada have excellent combined childcare & lessons. A day's care with either a one-hour private lesson or two-hour group lesson is CA$99 (about £45). Here's our youngster earlier this month half way down a mogul run: http://midlandski.fotopic.net/p11797899.html - and yes he's now three, although he has been 'discovering' sking for some time now: http://www.midlandski.org.uk/images/pole.jpg
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RobW, Is that the kid-ski ( http://www.kid-ski.com ) kit with your littleun? I've seen these on the web and wondered if they work.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Chris Reed, Yes it is the kid-ski pole. We bought the whole kit (pole, tiplock, harness, video &c) and it's been excellent in getting youngster sliding. He started sliding around on the local artificial slope using it once he could stand holding onto something, but before he could walk. Only five minutes a time at that age, but now he'll happily ski for a hour or so (subject to not getting cold).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My kids started dry slope lessons at 3.5 and could already ski when we took them to the French Alps age 3.75.
We put them into the Pommes de Pin/ESF ski kindergarten, La Nova, Les Arcs 1800 thinking they would be taken skiing. We were disappointed to find that they were put in with non-skiing kids and made to relearn basics in the enclosed ski playground. They said they didn't take such young kids out onto the mountain in these groups, which I thought disingenuous as they imply that they do teach 3yr olds to ski (I guess they do sort of). As we were planning to take them out ourselves each afternoon, we just put up with it, partly also as we didn't think they'd last all day on the slopes. Anyway, on the very first afternoon, they could ski a blue run no sweat, so dry lessons really do work (that's where I started too).
Actually, I now gather it's probably no better than this for 3 yr.olds anywhere, or with any other company, in Europe (please set me straight if you disagree, I really could do with knowing) unless going for private lessons. However, I'm told the group instruction for really little kids Stateside is much better, and some of the posts here support that.
This year, it's a combination of childcare and private lessons. Will probably try across the waters next year.
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I've got a four year old daughter and, also, when she was a 2 year-old we holidayed with a family with a three year old. Also, I've been organising ski holidays for families with deaf cochlear-implanted children this season so have gained quite a bit of insight into children learning to ski aged 4-13. So here goes:
Les Carroz. 2003. Our friend's three year old. They booked with Nouvelle Dimension. Normal group lessons. A quiet week in the first week in January. Experience was good. There was no ski kindergarten area. Instead the instructors were taking the children up the mountain and learning on an open slope and using a beginners rope tow. Ratio was great - four or five 3/4 year olds with two instructors. Full marks to Nouvelle Dimension.
Courchevel 1650. 2004. Our three year old. Booked in with ESF in the protected 'magic carpet' kindergarten area. Morning and afternoon and joining us for lunch. Mixed experience. After one and half days our daughter declared she did not want to go to ski school. A day later she said she wanted to go back to ski school in the afternoon only. She did so with reasonable enthusiasm for the rest of the week. Advantage was a very safe and protected environment. Disadvantages was that the set-up was rather factory-like, with a lot of kids hanging around and waiting in line and not very good staff to children ratios. It did not put our daugher off and she came away thinking ski school was good and feeling proud. However, it could have swung the other way. A good thing was that we had booked morning and afternoon sessions and were able to be flexible in response to how she reacted.
La Tania. 2005. Supreme Ski School. A private group instruction package for our now four year old daughter, other cochlear implanted deaf children and their brothers and sisters. Like Nouvelle Dimension in Les Carroz, there was no 'magic carpet' protected ski area so Supreme were teaaching on the open slope. They were simply fantastic. They made the children's experience fun and not a single child ever looked back. The instructors knew how children enjoy themselves and the emphasis was on learning to ski and having fun. Because it was private, lessons were 2.5 hours in the afternoon. Beforehand I was thinking the afternoon start was a drawback but the late start proved to be a boon given all the 'getting kids organised' challenges that happen in the morning. I can't recommend Supreme Ski school highly enough. See www.supremeski.com. It also helped enormously that we were staying with parents with similar aged children who were all going to the same ski school. By the end of the week my tiny (for her age) daughter was skiing from La Tania across and down into Courchevel 1850.
Next up is Kitzbuhel in March 2005. Again my daughter with many other children from other families. This time it is the Red Devils. Ski school hours in Austria are longer with two 2 hour sessions. Seeing the benefit of a later start in La Tania we are doing a 10.45 start with a session before and after lunch. I'll post feedback to snowheads.
My conclusions from this are:
With young children be ready to be flexible and go with what they want to do.
Look out for ski schools that don't go for the standard magic carpet formula but instead place an emphasis on teaching and progression on the open slope.
See if you can team up with other families. If they are making friends in the hotel/chalet and buddying up to go to the same ski school it really helps.
Think about private lessons but, if the children are pre-school and you are able to go out of school holiday time, then you may find (like our friends did in Les Carroz) that a group lesson can be equally 'private'. For older children, private instruction possible not so crucial and a larger group may even have advantages.
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You know it makes sense.
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StanBowles,
That's helpful. I think you've hit the nail on the head about avoiding a ski kindergarten/playground/magic-carpet area --- if you want your kids to actually be taught to ski, make sure they have to be taken onto the open slope, either 'cos the school doesn't have such a limited(limiting?  ) area or 'cos you have paid privately.
The only thing for me is that if I'm to get much proper skiing, I need something that offers me child care for at least half the day . The ideal is a nursery/preschool environment unattached to an enclosed kiddie area, that offers open slope lessons during that session.  I've got to admit that I wasn't that bothered that they weren't taken onto the open slope by anyone other than ourselves last year at 3.75yrs. At that age they're pretty fragile and at least I felt happy they were safe. 
Incidentally, I've been with Supreme in Courcheval as an adult and they were good.
Well done on investing your time and effort with cochlear implanted kids. It involves huge commitment from families, as you well know, and a skiing trip is just the kind of stress-breaker and extra reward for the effort that's needed. Good news is that the younger they're done, the better the results almost no matter what happens(assuming the kids have no other problem). Well done, again. Do they wear their mic/speech processor when they ski? What about helmets?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Simple Answer: Pro Neige Val Thorens - theres a link from the VT website.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks for the feedback slikedges. It's also good to hear that you have familiarity with CIs (most people think they have a hearing aid). In answer to your question, yes they definitley continue to wear their mic and speech processor otherwise, of course, they would be in a world of silence. I have just drafted a Q&A for our CI families' newsletter on helmets so I have cut and pasted this below to answer your other questions:
Do children need to wear helmets for skiing?
It is strongly recommended. In Italy, for example, it is required by law for all children up to age 14.
Is the helmet likely to be a problem with a CI?
I've now skied with a lot of children using cochlear implants with helmets and there has never been a problem. The only special thing I did in advance of the CICS holiday was to advise the ski hire shop to get a good choice of helmets in given that there was a lot of children with CIs. But, on this holiday as with other ski holidays I've been on, it was easy to find a good fitting helmet that posed no problems for the CI. You might find it is useful to use a headband under the helmet to help keep the coil in place.
What about muffling the microphone?
I imagine the quality of sound input must be impeded a little with the helmet since the microphone is relatively concealed. However, it did not seem to present any communications difficulties on our holiday. It would be interesting to hear if any CI skiers have ever tried using the lapel microphone to get round the 'muffling' effect of the helmet.
Should I buy a helmet for my child?
I would not advise buying a helmet. First, your child's head will grow so you will need to replace it. Second, if you hire in resort you know that you will be able to choose from a range of different helmets in different shops and, if there is a snag, you go back and try another one.
Can my child use a bike helmet for skiing?
No. Bike helmets are not recommended because they do not offer the correct protection for skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Here're a few reflections on my experience of taking three lads (now aged 9, 7, 6) skiing:
1. 3 1/2 is awfully young to learn to ski. Some kids love it, but my youngest just wasn't ready when he was just four. He didn't have the strength to hold a wedge on anything other than a superficial slope, and the ski school (Breckenridge) only took him up the mountain on the last day of the holiday, and then only reluctantly (he can ski as fast as my wife now, though, even though he's still just 6!). Make sure you have a fall-back if the skiing's not a success.
2. At 3 1/2, your child won't be able to ski for more than 2-3 hours per day, split into two sessions. Even that might be too much. The quality of the childcare arrangements for the rest of the day are probably more important than the skiing.
3. If you think your child might progress swiftly, seriously consider America. In my experience the ski schools there reassess each child after each session (ie twice a day) to consider whether they should progress to the next group. With classes organised by tour operators in Europe, most kids stay in the same class for the whole week, even if they're struggling to keep up or are clearly more advanced than their peers.
4. Another difference with America is that they seem to have a different attitude to childhood over there. At the risk of generalising horribly, European schools seem focussed on learning, while American schools are focussed on having fun. I prefer the latter approach, but you might prefer the former.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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StanBowles,
Interesting stuff. I guess the other question that springs to mind concerns battery life/failure and electronics failure in the cold unless body-worn but I guess the helmet prevents that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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slikedges. Yes that is a concern and it is certainly a problem with my digital camera. So far I have had rather flukey warm weather (including the first week in Jan this year) when I have taken CI children to the mountains and I have had no reports of the device powering off. I think we would have had more problems if we had been out in the Alps more recently. Most of the children have a behind the ear processor and I guess there is a certain heat that comes from it being snuggled in between the helmet and the head. Ditto with body-worn processors if the children wear them under layers as close to the body as possible.
Jonny Jones makes some very good points and I do think it is crucial to go with the children's agenda. I think the the north Amercia/Europe point may have general application if you are comparing say mass-ESF group tuition with some schools in north America but my experience with European ski schools - one French (Nouvelle Dimension) and one British (Supreme in Courchevel) - has been very, very good. I will be interested to see how the Rote Teufal (Red Devils) do with our children in Kitzbuhel later in March. I think any ski shcool that just looks at learning or just looks at fun is not doing their job. When it comes to ski school, learning and fun have to go together and Supreme were brilliant at achieving that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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StanBowles, are you by any chance the StanBowles who played for QPR and England (?)?
My limited experience of creche/skischool in N.America (at Mammoth and Banff) is good. In each case the kids could have 0, 1 or 2 hours a day of skiing, plus a bit with us at the end of the day once they could ski on the beginners slopes. Our kids started on a dedicated, small nursery slope by the creche and were taken onto the general nursery slope and then the beginners' trails as they progressed. They enjoyed it, although my son in particular would have liked more skiing (I doubt that he could have managed a lot more, though, as they were knackered at the end of the day).
They were in the creche when they were just 4 and just 5, and moved into ordinary all day kids' ski school when they were 6 (which in Banff was also excellent).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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StanBowles, I'm sure that you're right in saying that you can get excellent tuition in Europe; I certainly don't have any bad European experiences to report. But, good or bad, America is a different experience from Europe. I've just sought to highlight some of the differences. To be fair, I probably should have added jetlag to my list, too - and that's a major factor with young kids.
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richmond. No he's probably in a pub in Brentford! But as a QPR fan old enough to remember watching him from the terraces as a teenager, I am a big admirer. I probably should have called my Snowheads nickname Stanbowlesfan! My real name is Dominic Byrne. I rep for the Ski Club when I can but that has had to take a back seat lately because of being a dad. Organising these trips for the CI deaf children has also been a big time thing so Ski Club stuff has been put on hold this season.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Very interesting thread as I head for Les Arcs in 4 days time with 2x 3.5 yr olds. Am looking at Spirit1950 in, yes, 1950: any experiences anyone? Speaking to them in January they seemed to be quite used to small people.
As with the other posters, we are anticipating a holiday this time around where our needs take a back seat: its more about them having a good time and learning to love the white stuff - although I thinlk I have got the basics instilled now: my daughter asked last year, on being told at 2.5 she was 'too small' to ski "Daddy can I be bigger for a week so I can go skiing, then I promise I'll be smaller again?" Oh... so cute.
But I agree we are not anticipating more than 1 session a day, then off to swimming pool/sledging / snowman/ face painting and other delights. Just hope it gets a bit warmer than it appears at the moment. 
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Sorry to be a biased American but much as I love skiing in Europe, I really believe the kids programs on this side of the Atlantic are superior to most European ones I have observed. The issue is the terrain as much as anything else. In Europe its typical to have a big cable at the base take you up to the snow fields leaving the kids programs stuck by themselves at the base with a magic carpet or something lame like that, usually with artificial snow. In North America the base itself is at a higher elevation with plenty of skiiable snow so the kids area is right next to a series of chair lifts that serve decent fairly easy runs. Our 4 kids were on chair lifts with instructors at 4 years old, some at 3 years old. Not sure why anyone would travel across the Atlantic to ski New England unless they knew there would be no ice and they love quaint scenery, but from first hand experience the kids programs at Sugarbush (Vermont)and Sunday River are great. Sunday River has a couple of lodges (the Summits) with great outdoor swimming pools next to the slopes for apres ski which kids just love. Out west Snowmass (one of the Aspen mountains) has a superb kids program. .
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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JimW,
That was our over-riding concern last year as well - that they weren't put off, and didn't get cold, tired, bored and start biting people at random (they don't do that last one - much - anymore). They were in a kindergarten with ski playground in the mornings, then had lunch with us for an hour, then did 2 hr with us on the open slopes. At 3.75 they coped fine with that.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| kathyborn wrote: |
| Not sure why anyone would travel across the Atlantic to ski New England unless they knew there would be no ice and they love quaint scenery, but from first hand experience the kids programs at Sugarbush (Vermont)and Sunday River are great. Sunday River has a couple of lodges (the Summits) with great outdoor swimming pools next to the slopes for apres ski which kids just love . |
We have, but I get business trips to my company's HQ in Southern Vermont which helps. First time we went I was a bit sceptical about the skiing but really enjoyed it, skied at Stratton and it had much more on offer than I expected.
The scenery, you have to like trees to live in VT , is quite different to the Alps being soft tree covered mini mountains. Skiing is always 'in the trees' sometimes right in them if you get into a 'glade; run.
We have skied Stowe which was great for my wife who is a non-skier, facilities at 'resort' complexes are superb and currently the exchange rate is a major attractor.
Personally I like Bromley as it is small, friendly ( no Brits!! ), mainly South facing and much cheaper than Stratton. For the real experience we skied at Magic Mountain one day and considering there was only one lift open it was a great day - no people and plenty of interesting runs through the trees.
Back to the grind.........
CP
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If business takes you to Southern Vermont, definitely try Okemo. And a little further north Sugarbush which has two mountains now linked by a lift. That's been our favorite for years. Plenty of ski in and out condos. One complex the Bridges has its own indoor pool and indoor tennis courts. Wonderful spa in town of Warren called Alta or something like that. It is available to all comers but affiliated with a very expensive but exquisite inn, Pitcher Inn (Chateaux& Relais property). Nice restaurants for nightime dining (Common Man, Pitcher Inn, Chez Henri). Truly awful food on the mountain itself however. But overall much better skiing and atmosphere than Stowe in my opinion and we have been to both this year. Excellent tree runs and steep mogul slopes (FIS and Exterminator). Superb nursery and kids program. Wish we had British pounds to spend there!
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You know it makes sense.
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Sorry, guys just a little off topic. We are going to be in Les Arcs March 14th-19th and then on to 3V for
March 19th-26th. Never skied over the pond before. Coming from Canada do we need extra accident
insurance or is the normal travel insurance that we have sufficient? Anybody know?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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sawni, you need to check your policy. I have an annual travel policy (Amex) which includes perfectly good winter sports cover for me and my family, including off piste (within limits).
You'll need to be sure that you have enough insurance to cover medical costs, repatriation and a helicopter off the mountain as well as 3rd party claims; a few million dollars' worth should do it. In some countries you can buy an easily recognised insurance by the day or week (Carte Neige in France) which gives you a card or dog tag which will be recognised by the ski patrol and the local medics, so that they get you off the hill and into hospital without taking you to a cash machine en route. I don't use it, but if you don't already have adequate cover, it could be useful.
You've chosen a good year to visit Europe from Canada by the look of the snow.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 3-03-05 11:25; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks for the info. I will look into our travel insurance policy. Yes the snow does look better in the Alps
than in BC this year. We ski mainly out east-Tremblant-which has been pretty good all season. Hopefully
the snow keeps falling into mid-March in the Alps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sawni, well worth paying the few Euros extra with the ski pass for Carre Niege. The salesperson will probably offer it when you buy the passes. That gets you off the mountain and into hospital (if necessary - we all hope it isn't of course) without any hassles. Then your own insurance can take over for everything else.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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With a grand-daughter headed towards the age to start snow holidays I would like to know whether people have managed to keep kids warm enough - and how. This year, apart from a gloriously warm sunny spell in January, appears to have been Sooooooooooo cold in the Alps. This week the forecast is for nothing above -7. I was out today, in plenty of layers, expensive gloves, balaclava, etc. and still felt chilly enough on chairlifts that I would have been grizzling if I was three years old (I moaned a bit at 5 ). My daughter started at 4, in a German speaking class in Austria, and was fine, but it was not a cold week, and she was desperate to get one of those medals and photos that she had seen the other kids get the end of the previous week. We had gone for two weeks self catering, took grandma, and she (daughter, not grandma) spent the first week doing a bit of tobogganing, snowballs, swimming and attended the end of week ski school party where her big brothers, mum and dad all got medals and photos. From that first week she got the impression that ski school was where big people went, that it was fun, and that you got a medal. So she begged to be allowed to go - and to hire proper skis and boots. Some kids appear to be dumped in ski schools within hours of arriving in a strange place, with a load of strangers, so that their parents can go and have fun without them - and kids will pick up on that very quickly. She definitely would not have coped if thrown into ski school the first week. But I'm not sure she'd have coped with very low temperatures either. For many years we only ever took ski holidays in mid-January, because it was cheap, and mostly it was a lot warmer than the last few weeks! I guess we were just lucky. I suppose that the posters who stress the need for flexibility have hit the nail on the head - if it's cold, or a child simply hates it, you have to go with the flow and find other ways of making the holiday fun.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As you say, you've got to go with the flow.
Our 3yo has this year been skiing in temperatures of around -5C, and after about an hour (first thing in the morning) he does start to complain about the cold, so it's inside for a warm-up and play for an couple of hours. He's then keen to get out again just after lunch for another hour, after which is been play-time again until we pick him up at the end of the day - when he usually wants to go skiing again! Skiing for 3 hours a day at aged 3 we're quite surprised by.
Then it was back to the hotel, and after quick snack and play, swim time! Oh I wish I had that much energy. Not surprisingly he slept very well: usually 12 hours solid which is more than he does at home.
Clothing is the important. Proper thermal underwear, fleece trousers and top, and then a goretex all-in-one suite (Fairground do ones from very small sizes), and good gloves (with spares), balaclava, and helmet. An all-in-one suit is better than separate trousers and jacket as less chance of snow getting inside if (when!) they fall over. But if you aren't convinced youngster will take to skiing, this can be quite expensive - even if you are convinced it's not cheap at the speed they grow. We regularly joke that youngster is better dressed than we are.
One thing to remember: if you're a regular experienced skier, you've probably got decent gear. If you are feeling cold, how is youngster??
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Maybe -5 or -6, with not too much wind, is the coldest it is reasonable to expect them to cope with, and not for long. If you hit one of those -15 plus wind chill weeks, better have a good supply of story books! I think I will start looking out for second hand thermals and fleece mid layers in all sizes likely to be needed over the next five years.... yes, ski-ing for 3 hours at 3 is good going.
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we always used to go in january 'cos it was cheap but since we've had kids we have switched to march or even april as it is much warmer and quite often the snow is beter, and if the snow is not better then the visibility is. If I'm down to one trip a year I'd go march or april even if we didn't have children.
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Matthew Way, is ski school for childcare or for teaching your child to ski?
Ski school is not good for either at that age.
If you want him/her to learn to ski, then organise a few private lessons with an instructor who specialises in children.
If you want childcare get a nanny or take granny, or make sure the creche is in your chalet/hotel so your child does not feel he/she is being taken somewhere and abandonned.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jonpim, an hour or two a day of ski school can be a worthwhile part of childcare. I am surprised that it is worth doing with a 3 year old, but contibutors to here and to the SCGB site make it clear that it can be.
The trouble with private lessons at that age is that the kids get bored so easily. They need to have chums at whom to chuck snowballs, to push over and so on, and kids enjoy learning in a group at that age (in my experience anyway).
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Jonpim,
I'd agree that proper ski school is not a good option for 3yr olds - too tiring and wouldn't concentrate that long - but for 1st time out 3yr olds, I think ski lessons (best on open slope if poss) from a kindergarten base works fine, for the basics and a group environment.
I gave our nanny both dry lessons b4 going out and lessons whilst there - it was a holiday for the whole family. Too cold for granny.
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