You are not a Ski Instructor.....

A snowHead

You are a Professeur de Ski.

According to Skidog's work permit, that is the official title in Switzerland.

It sounds so much better, so much more important....and that will be on the CV for the future.

A snowHead

yes the french language sound sso much better at things like this

i much prefer being an "ingenieur", rather than an "engineer"

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Je suis un Chef de Projets Smile

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Colin B, Colin B, What a coincidence, so am I. Laughing

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I thought they were called 'moniteurs' in France.

Or is that just the ones that teach kids ?

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You are not a ski instructor,

You're a very naughty boy

After all it is free

I thought this was going to be about the perils of trying to teaching your friends to ski Laughing

Gilberts Fridge, Toofy Grin

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Latchico, Moniteur is the job title (instructor). My Carte Professionnelle says I'm an 'Educateur Sportif' BEES : Option Ski Alpin - titre moniteur national. National Ski Teacher is what it says on my Grade 1 certificate too - much nicer than ISTD (unfortunate choice!). The French used to have two levels at least: Moniteur and Professeur. When they changed the system the old Professeurs got awarded Moniteur National and so did everyone else who was qualified except the kids teachers. Their qual is no longer around, but peeps who had it are allowed to teach, but not adults. Moniteur National is ISTD in current parlance. rolling eyes

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Sorry - forgot to say: I am deffo not an instructor, but a coach!

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easiski, I appreciate the difference, but I would be surprised if one precluded the other, presumably Coach is the part you are most proud of?

Megamum, Sure - but it's not a qualification but a way of teaching! Instruction is just that. This is getting more serious than the OP intended! However I do think one of the probs with disappointed students is that they join an instruction class and expect to have more correction and discussion than is possible.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Three other levels in France

Moniteur Fédéral 1er degré
Moniteur Fédéral 2e degré
Entraineur Fédéral

These are all federal qualifications qualifying the teacher to teach adults and children without pay as part of a club.

There are similar qualifications for guiding ski and snowboard groups.

A snowHead

A snowHead

I prefer the term 'bus' to 'coach'.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

David Sockpuppet, Yes - but I teach individuals - even if there are 4 of them together (my max). My teaching method is coaching. Instruction is just that - do this, do that, do the other. A demo, but very little individual input. If you are who I think you are then you were a 'Trainee Ski Instructor'. the next level was Ski Instructor and the top (Grade 1) was Ski Teacher. That's what was on the badges. I didn't want to get into it too deeply in what's supposed to be a funny thread - just answering the question. Tuition is not instruction. Coaching is a way of teaching.

ski, Quite.

davidof, Yeah - but they don't really count - have you seen how bad they are? Laughing

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So what fun french terms can be used for a ski pupil?

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Wayne, It is clear that the word instruction means 'to instruct' - that is - to give instructions. However, to be fair No 1 below (from a dictionary) does mention teaching. I still think that I didn't work all those years to be a 'National Ski Teacher' only to be called a Ski Instructor though! I see instruction happening all over the mountain, and the students don't really improve all that much through the week - especially the weaker ones. Going faster while still being totally out of balance isn't learning to ski is it?

1. the act or practice of instructing or teaching; education.
2. knowledge or information imparted.
3. an item of such knowledge or information.
4. Usually, instructions. orders or directions: The instructions are on the back of the box.
5. the act of furnishing with authoritative directions.
6. Computers. a command given to a computer to carry out a particular operation.

Wayne, It is clear that the word instruction means 'to instruct' - that is - to give instructions. However, to be fair No 1 below (from a dictionary) does mention teaching. I still think that I didn't work all those years to be a 'National Ski Teacher' only to be called a Ski Instructor though! ISTD = International Ski Teacher Diploma!

I see instruction happening all over the mountain, and the students don't really improve all that much through the week - especially the weaker ones. Going faster while still being totally out of balanceand flinging yourself round the corner isn't learning to ski is it?

1. the act or practice of instructing or teaching; education.
2. knowledge or information imparted.
3. an item of such knowledge or information.
4. Usually, instructions. orders or directions: The instructions are on the back of the box.
5. the act of furnishing with authoritative directions.
6. Computers. a command given to a computer to carry out a particular operation.

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easiski,
I think that you may get different clients than we do. We get people who want to learn to ski or to improve their skiing.

I have split the entire skiing world into 5 Grades (OK I know this is wrong but I had to try something). When I look at the split in grade the vast majority are grades 1,2,3 (about 80%) and grade 4 (15%) with the last 5% either grade 5 or people who aren’t sure.
The grade 1's and 2's are the people who (from me anyway) get a, sort of, traditional ski lesson. As most British skier will fall into grade 3, they (again from me anyway) tend to get more of a personal performance course - that is the class / lesson is aimed at what they need to progress and this can be a number of different things within each class to different people.
I have noticed that people who are grade 4 and 5 tend to ask to be taught specific skills (drills for grade 5's).

Privates are different.
I had a lady 3 days ago who came along with her child (girl about 12 years old). The lady and her husband like a particular run (the moguls above the Black, number 5 – Provetti) and she wanted her kid to be able to join them.
So I took the girl to the nursery area (which the lady thought – and told me – was a waste of time). After about 5 seconds of skiing I could tell that she was never going to be able to get down the bumps in one piece. After moving to some steeper areas, I concentrated the lesson on 2 main themes projection and rotation. At the end of the 2 hours she could ski better than when she arrived BUT still not at the level that I could say that she could “safely” ski down a very steep off piste bumps run leading to the top of a black. Note there are no easy escape routes from the bumps. I told that lady this and I don’t think she was impressed. She had paid for something (a family whizz down the bumps) and she had not got it (her daughter still couldn’t join in). But, the girl had fun during the session with me, she was a better skier afterwards and the lesson was done safely. To me that was s success (IMO)

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Wayne, easiski, Why all the pontificating. An Instructor is someone who instructs and gives someone the skills to learn to ski. A coach is someone who works on specific parts of someone skiing.

I wouldn't expect a beginner to be given coaching lessons and similarly I wouldn't expext a race skier to be given instruction.

Alot of instructors hold dual qualifications to so as to be able to offer specialist advise dependent upon the clients needs.

The point is :_ " DO WE TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO SKI" or " DO WE TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO LEARN TO SKI".

Focusing upon the second quote gives the beginner and progessing skier the skills to feel what should be happening.

You know it makes sense.

easiski, BTW I always find that when I am instructing I tend to be skiing with the client and actually demonstrating drills. When I am coaching I tend to watch the other person skiing and offer advice and suggestions with only a few demonstrations.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Super Eagle, i think the skiing with, or, just giving feedback differention is very dependent on the clients and the coaches personal style.

i coach child racers and adult rec skiers and tend to ski much more with the kids when coaching using demos and very little verbal feedback. i personally prefer to ski with clients and offer feedback during runs rather than watch em from the bottom when they nervously one by one make a run and stop for feedback..

A snowHead

My understanding of it goes along these lines:-

It used to be that BASI had assistant ski instructor (grade 3), ski instructor (grade 2) and ski teacher (grade 1). This changed to ski instructor (grade 3, probably a marketing issue as who wants to be known as an 'assistant' Cool

), ski teacher (grade 2) and national ski teacher (grade 1).

I was taught that the difference between a ski intructor and a ski coach was that a ski instructor has a 'short term' (1hr, 2hrs- 1-2 weeks tops) relationship with their client and that a ski coach has a 'long term' (anything from a few weeks to many years) relationship with their client. There are further differences in that a coach is concerned with not only developing technical, physical movement patterns but are also looking at improving their clients diet (alright a ski instructor may tell his clients to lay off the beer if they had a few too many the night before Laughing

), strength, power,speed and flexibility. All of these concerns involve a coach designing regimens of exercise to be followed away from ski slopes, doing activities which on the face of it have litlle to do with skiing, which will be followed on a yearly basis (usually) by their clients.

There is a further distinction to a degree between ski instructors and ski teachers. Ski instructors tend to only be 'trained' and examined on lower levels of skills teaching (grade 3 was up to and including parallel turns on piste, don't know what level 2 is these days). Whereas a teacher (grade 2/level 3 up) would be expected to teach anything including off-piste (but not on glaciated terrain).

Also whilst a ski instructor (level 2) would be expected to know and be able too use the lower teaching styles (command, self check etc), they would not be expected to be able to use properly and fully the divergent or convergent teaching styles at the upper end of the teaching styles spectrum.

Instructors tend to use 'command' style a lot. This works well with beginners (though I use other styles with beginners too, you don't have to purely use 'command' style). So basically 'command' style is "do what I do, where I say to do it, when I say to do it" and all the feedback is one way from the instructor to the client.

Teachers will understand and use all the teaching styles and mix them around and use them when they are best required for the clients understanding and improvement. So things like 'guided discovery' come into play were the teacher through their use of questioning guides the learner to an answer (this can be a verbally though out answer or a physically experienced and felt 'answer'). The higher teaching styles involve two-way feedback between the learner and the teacher, this requires the teacher to have a much broader knowledge of their subject generally. Also at a very high level the learner may very well be designing their own program and using the teacher as a facilitator/ 'sounding-board'. This tends to only really happen for high level performers. Although a more common one that many of us come up against is 'instructor' training where we are asked what we would like to work on, another familair scenario is with private lessons with clients who are intermediate level and beyond where we are asking what they would like to work on.

For clients they have little understanding of the distinction, particularly, between instructors and teachers. We all tend to get lumped in under 'instructor' no matter what level exams we have passed. For the governing body or a ski school there is little incentive to make clients well aware of the differences as this inevitably leads to some problems (i.e clients being taught by a level 1 instructor, discover their other 'peer' class is being taught by a level 4 national ski teacher). Also if clients were well aware of the differences then ski schools might have to pay higher qualified teachers a much higher hourly rate than a level 1 as more clients would demand the higher qualified teacher (the lessons then might cost more for a higher qualified teacher), this of course depends on if the clients generally cared if they were taught by someone with a higher qualification. (granted the situation is a bit different in Italy and France)

The governing bodies have little interest in ensuring clients having a greater understanding of different levels of 'instructor' as this can only serve to devalue the lower level qualifications in the eyes of the paying public (regardless of what technical level is actually required to pass say - level 1)

There is obviously still a 'greyness' and crossover between what an instructor/teacher/coach does in certain areas.

A snowHead

Semantics, people wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

skir67, Agree with much of your comments.

Namely an instructor will generally teach someone in timed blocks upto at leat basic parallel where as a coach will generally teach beyond this level over a longer period.

However my take on pay rates should be that you are paid in accordance with the level of class you are taking rather than your personal ability. Wether you are a level 2 instructor or ISTD makes no difference at the end of the day a complete beginners class is a complete beginners class of side stepping,sliding and plough.

If an ISTD was paid more for taking this level of class then actually there would be less jobs for ISTD instructors as Ski Schools would employ more level 2 instructors if the majority of the Ski Schools classes were beginners. an ISIA or ISTD qualified instructor only earns more money when he is taking higher end lessons.

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Super Eagle, that way no fully qualified instructor would ever want to teach beginners. Not a good state of affairs, IMO.

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rob@rar, I think it would be good for a fully qualified instructor to teach begineers now and again

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rob@rar, I beg to disagree as its ski school which determines who you teach. Ski School is about making money and they would employ the instructors which cost the less. ie level 2 and then have a few ISIA or ISTD for advanced skiers. If you can pay a level 2 instructor £250 per week for taking a lesson then they're not going to employ a higher qualified instructor who would want more to teach the same lesson. The punter doesn't pay more for the privilage so only ski schools margin is eroded by allocating a higher qualified instructor.

rob@rar, Unfortunately I have seen many ISIA and ISTD Instructors who think they are above teaching beginners " I've not spent all this money to gain a top qualification to ski on a nursery slope and snow plough" at this point you see them taking them higher up the mountain becuase this is where the instructor wants to be before the client is at a suitable level for the terrain.

The hardest part for a highly qualified instructor is to stay focused and ski to the level of the class. Which is why you will see some trying little tricks at the end of demos etc that the client thinks is part of the task.

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rob@rar, The Instructor is qualified to teach to that standard. The client doesn't know any different and should'nt see any difference. A level 1 instructor can be as good a skier as a level 2 or 3 but not felt its necessary or in their interest to go higher up the system. It's ski schools job to make sure that all instructors are teaching to the same standard whether level 1,2,3 or 4

Super Eagle, they might be technically qualified to teach to that level but in my experience a fully qualified instructor is much more likely to have a better eye, a better technical understanding, and a wider repertoire of drills and tricks to help the client. There will always be exceptions to this, of course, but as a generality I think it holds water. Any ski school which won't, as a matter of policy, give beginners it's highly qualified instructors is one to be avoided, IMO.

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rob@rar, So does Hemel only have level 3 instructors? I don't think so and neither do MK,Castlford or Chillfactor etc. so are you saying they are not being honest with the punter?

I agree level 3 and 4 instructors will generally be better skiers and their demos should be applied slightly better but again the beginner client doesn't know this nor would they see a difference in the demo as they haven't learn't to understand what is happening yet.

Again I state that its the Ski Schools job is to make sure the Instructor whether level 1,2,3 or 4 is carrying out their lessons and demos to the required standard.

Assuming that you are completely correct wouldn't all instructors have to be level 4 before they could teach ( Oooops France already does this but they're not necessarily the best instructors ).

Do the best footballers in the world make the best managers ???????. At what level did the top 8 managers in the premiership play.

Help!!

You are not a Ski Instructor.....

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