Introducing Children to Ski Lifts

A snowHead

With the advent of Child Protection laws what are the view points of other instructors on the following method.

I have seen Instructors position young children between their legs to take them up Button lifts or T Bars due to the child not being strong enought to hold onto the lift or maintain a steady line by themselves thus positioning a persons private parts close to a childs body.

This excercise has been discussed on many occasions between my fellow instructor colleagues but without any definative conclusion. Personally I don't do it and I explain to the parents why. In most cases this is where children are very young say 3 to 5 years.

Older instructors tend to say well how else are they going to get them up the slope and younger ones tend to take my view point.

Am I being over cautious in todays political correct society or justified in my actions. BASI don't give a difinative answer nor does anyone Ive discussed the issue with who run child protection courses

A snowHead

Yes. You are being way over cautious.
CP laws and guidelines are there to protect children, not to prevent them from being able to participate in normal activities.
You hold a cert to prove you have a clean slate in relation to working with kids. S
o therefore there should be no risk to the child. If the child or parents can not trust you enough to do this then you should refuse to teach the child.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Super Eagle, Just say NO.

At our slope parents help the kids, and the lift has been modified so it runs slowly. Magic Carpets are even better.

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david@mediacopy,
Why should you have to say no?...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

flangesax, Yes I have had several clean checks made and I wouldn't expect anything else.

However this original discussion between instructors started due to the Instructor trainer on our course stating that we shouldn't do it.

Even with the consent of the parents to do this method could still lead to a potential problem later.

I have no reason to believe that any of my fellow instructors or myself would be doing anything other than having the best interests of the child at heart but it only takes one parent to make a complaint and blacken your record.

david@mediacopy, Thankfully your slope gives a dam about CP. Unfortunately our slope doesn't and the lift is long so unless the parent is also in the lesson this is not possible.

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Surely the instructors are wearing trousers Puzzled

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

RobW,

Normally a slope would have made provisions for such progression of a young one beyond nursery slope.

ie:- Resorts have other options such as chairlifts, Gondolas etc

Uk slopes either have smaller button lifts, magic carpets or rope tows.

When the alternative is only a long button or T Bar this is what starts the discussion

After all it is free

As A parent of a young child i think it boils down to this...

If i didnt trust you - you wouldnt get my child
assuming that therefore you do - I firmly believe that I must be aware of the type of things you have to do
and when they are appropriate - on that basis helping my child up a lift ( in a safe manner) comes into acceptable
if i dont like it then i should remove my child.

That said if the child reported something other that appropriate help then you would obviously do something about it.

And i firmly agree that if its an issue for you then dont do it, but also make sure that the resort knows why, then if they want to
keep families going they will do something about it. - by installing appropriate lifts

by the way - is that the easiest way on the button lift - what about then with a ski either side of your on one leg ?

interestingly - is that why its mostly younger females who teach the kids ?????

I've being taking little kids up our button lift for more than 15 years and it seems to me this question has only arisen since the introduction of CR checks and CP courses. However, we have always asked the attending parent(s) for permission in any event. I find the most effective method is to have the kid put one of their skis between mine and the other on the outside, then they can lean back against my leg if they wish and if things go awry I can lift them off the ground with my free arm before we both end up in a heap. No parts of me other than a trousered leg and a gloved hand/arm get anywhere near any parts of them.
It's still a matter for the individual instructor and I know some who will not do it, but if no-one is prepared to do it how will the kids progress?

It shouldn't really make any difference if it's a younger female teacher though should it? And it's difficult to convince some of them that they have the skill (and/or strength needed if things do go wrong - kids do not keep their skis going straight on the track all the time believe me!).

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What has the world come to?? We are seriously in danger of teaching our kids that ALL physical contact between adults and children is bad for goodness sake. We should instead be teaching them to distinguish between good touch, which is reassuring and normal and that which is inappropriate.

I would FAR prefer my child to be carried up a drag lift between an instructors' legs, feeling safe and secure, than be either forced to go it alone and fall off or be held in some convoluted arms length arrangement which would feel awkward and unsafe to both parties.

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I am surprised at the question because where my kids learned to ski it didn't present itself as an issue. The ski instruction in Switzerland doesn't suit me as an adult, and I think the kids become bored with the regimented style as they get older, but I cannot fault the introduction that the children received to the lifts, having learned from about 3 yrs old. To begin with they were taught in a ski garden with a rotating cable lift with beads on it. On the last day those kids that were going to get a ski garden 'pass' were brought over to the blue practice slope. The instructors produce a 'button' with attached short post from a box and proceed to tow each child up and down on it to give them some idea of what to do with it. Then they go on the lift proper. The lifts are constantly manned by some of the most child friendly lifties I have ever seen, and take time to catch each lift for kids to short to do so and help the child to place their own button. The instructor having gone up first waits 'sans skis' at the top to ensure that each child gets off OK. A similar process is made at the end of the second course and the child introduced to the T bar in the same way, again with a helpful liftie. So it takes 2 complete weeks of lessons before the child is allowed to ride the chair lift during ski school - and sometimes longer if the child needs to repeat a session. However, it does mean that all the children can manage the lift in their lessons without needing to be taken on things like a button lift with an instructor. In fact their progress books even state the lift that they have been 'passed' to use.

The only time I have encountered problems with children on lifts in on one of the T bars in resort that has such tight springs that very small children aren't heavy enough to weigh them down alone, then it is more necessary that an adult or heavier child is on the other side.

Mind you is a child in any more danger between an instructors legs, than sharing a T bar potentially with a stranger, or even seated on a chair lift with 5 or 6 strangers as I have frequently seen done in VT? I am a parent and I guess I place my trust in the instructor and the good will of the other skiers in the resort to ensure my child is safe from the CP perspective. However, it will only take one problem to occur to make things difficult for ski instructors and I can quite see why the question has arisen - I don't however have a solution Puzzled

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It's not a problem at Hemel, and at no point in my BASI training (including two child protection courses and the CRB check) has this even been raised as an issue.

rob@rar, surely it's not a problem anywhere until someone gets accused (rightly or wrongly) of "inappropriate" behaviour? How do Hemel avoid that possibility?

Megamum, well if we had a country full of mountains and snow we might be able to install more than one lift as well rolling eyes

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Or take Holy Orders - couldn't be more trustworthy than a man of the cloth, to be sure wink

A snowHead

Yoda, I didn't think the OP was specifically referring to a single location - I thought it was a general observation - is this issue specifically in reference to indoor snow domes? Even if it is, the Swiss seemed able to get kids of around 3 yrs + riding a poma without too much issue, esp. if a liftie was around to catch put them on and and the instructor at the top to ensure they got off. I see no reason why a similar process couldn't be deployed in a snow dome. The idea of a cut off lift button on a pole to show the kids what to do first is also a good thing to have available.

A snowHead

Megamum, I can't speak for the OP but I teach at a dry slope where there is only 1 button lift on a continuous loop. We don't see many 3 year olds but at any age up to about 6 if the child is small they are not strong enough to pull the button down against the internal spring. We can help by pulling it down for them but it usually helps to give them a few "taxi rides" at first so they get used to going up (and skiing down from the top) before they try it for themselves.

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I feel that Super Eagle is unnecessarily on the receiving end over this. The lecturer we had for our Child Protection course would have blown a fuse at the situation described. This is not Super Eagle's fault - it's just the way of the world now. I hate it as much as everyone but we have to be very careful to cover our backs. Look how difficult it is for Scouts to get new leaders these days.

I blame the media and their constant over-hyping and our week ineffectual government who cow down to their propaganda. Write to your MP. Write to the papers for this situation is only going to get worse.

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Thanks for your comments but alot are wide of the point

1. This problem does not tend to be an issue in resort as there are generally provisions / alternatives so that this procedure isn't required

2. Snowdomes tend to have lifties at the bottom and top so as to be able to assist young children on and off as well as a facility to slow the lift.

3. Beginners tend to get off at a lower point so don't have as far to go

4. Childrens ability to maintain a chips position with skis on snow is easier whereby on a bumpy dendex track it's more difficult

My question is in relationship to a long button lift with no lifties and no facility to slow lift down. Sitting child between knees or on one leg was an acceptable procedure a few years ago but with current CP laws people tend to get over cautious and the worst of people is feared rather than the best in people.

An instructor is in a vunerable position where by they are in the presence of children whereby physical contact is a possibility although the assisted plough can be easily resolved by just touching skis and boots

I raised the subject with the course tutor on a BASI CP course and with Snowsports UK but no one actually gives a diffinative answer. It's normally answered by do "what you think is best".

The best approach in my opinion until someone gives a definative answer is not to be put into a position of doubt no matter how small a risk.

Once a complaint is raised it as already become too late. Not to have a complaint is better.

Generally parents are understanding of the method to be used but it only takes one parent to then say I wasn't expecting that and you are faced with a difficult situation.

On our course we were told not to pick people up unless requested by them. I was actually criticised in my shadow lesson for letting a women grab hold of me so that she could break her fall. I was told I should have let her fall.

Its with these type of instructions that issues become clouded and yes common sense goes out of the window.

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Couldn't the situation be resolved by having a form explaining various 'teaching, hands-on assists' that may be employed and having the respective parent or guardian sign it when booking the course to say that they are agreeable for the methods described to be deployed when teaching their children?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

My experience of the Child Protection courses is that they have precious little to do with protecting children and all to do with protecting the adults. I guess that's par for the course in this crazy world.

RobW, Tamworth as a variant of the magic carpet

The choice of lifts in resorts are more varied beyond the nursery slope. Also as pointed out by gazza2 it tends to be younger females who have the little kids and there tends to be a bigger ratio of instructor to children although this shouldn't matter. If a little one is not capable of using the button by themselves a trip on a chairlift or gondala to another area is feasable.

rob@rar, I know you teach at Hemel where I'm sure you have lifties to supervise all clients. This takes away the need for the instructor to use the above method. However if one of your instructors employed this method what would be the centers opinion.

The question was raised with a BASI CP Trainer a couple of years back on one of thier courses and it would be inappropriate to name him but his answer was " Do what you thinks best " however the question was then raised with BASI and Snowsports UK directly and a similar vague answer was given.

As yet no one as difinitively said that the method is either right or wrong and its this clarification that several instructors seek and I seek. If it wasn't for CP regulations we wouldn't be having this convesation and I would gladly use it as I did in the past. Given that we are trying to protect children and yes adults involved in sports activities the simple answer is, is it right or wrong to use it.

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Total non-issue. It's Christmas - are kids not allowed to sit on Santa's knee any more?

Ski instructors are in a position of trust. They are trusted and they are checked for any dodgy history. There is always a risk, but frankly if the parents can't bear for little Jimmy to learn to ride a button lift with a qualified and certified ski instructors then maybe such an extreme sport isn't suitable for little Johnny, he's clearly not going to get to find out what risk is until he's 18.

If I was a parent, which I'm not, then I'm happy for you to go ahead with the method that's been working ever since button lifts were invented and kids started learning to ski.

Not all adults are paedos, and adults who work with kids should do so with the reassurance that they are helping the children to develop as human beings, and that just because they teach kids that they are not under suspicion.

I guess the younger you are, the more exposure you've had to CP policies etc, and so you accept it as the norm. The older heads (many of which are probably parents, whereas the younger ones less likely to be) apply the common sense to this situation. After you've changed a few nappies you seem to become a bit less concerned about this stuff.

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rob@rar, Ok regulations should have been expressed as Child Protection Guidance / Procedures.

Unfortunately at one place I work we do not have a policy, Which is why the topic is always occurring and Instructors are looking to clarify the point.

I do believe that not all countries take the steps that we take on CRB checks or CP training. Also if you are a forgien instructor working here then its not always possible to do a CRB check on them. The CP laws although have good intentions they do not actually protect the child that much as in most cases of child abuse its normally a family member or friend that abuses.

I'm happy to have CRB checks as it is more of an insurance for me to prove that I have a clean record but this is only required to be renewed every 3 years.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

rob@rar, Unfortunately CP as made us start and question procedures once taken as acceptable and yes common sense would be fine if we could define common sense. Using standard procedures adopted within industry in situations such as this ie :- can the process be engineered out ?? the answer is surely yes but at a cost. Its then down to the whether the cost to put in these modifications is acceptable in relation to the risk. However this would need the ski center to take CP seriously.

A few friends of mine have stopped running football teams due to CP. ie :- Don't put your arm round someone if they're crying following an injury etc

A snowHead

Although they are as daft as the the paper they are written on I don't see why having a clear CRB check wouldn't sufice for a ski instructor. After all as a swimming mummy a CRB check is sufficient to help very young children get into their swimming costumes and then get changed and dry afterwards, and a St. John member it is sufficient with children and vulnerable adults course to treat both categories for injuries to any part of their anatomy - though there must be two people present. These are two activities which have the potential to allow far more accidental 'intimate' contact than a ski instructor and small child resting between their knees on a ski lift with both clad in the type of clothing designed to keep you warm at sub-zero temperatures. It seems to me like a little common sense here might be good thing and/or a disclaimer signed as I suggested above.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

This entire queston is a bit odd. If I have one kid that can't get up a poma due to their age, occasionally I'll just stick them on a knee. Nothing dodgy there, and if I have multiple kids that can't get up the poma then they shouldn't be there? Teaching them to do it themselves is a reasonably massive part of the things they need to learn...

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DaveC, I think that's the theory that the Swiss work on - they should be able to use the lifts themselves

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Chill Factor e also has a magic carpet. I've never had to take a small child up a button between my legs, but I have had them stood directly in front of me on the magic carpet (they have a tendency to slide backwards!). As a chilad myself I remember going up t bars between male instructors legs on numerous occasions, it seemed completely normal to me.

I've never even thought of this specifically as an issue before. We did have a very over-cautious tutor on our CP module though, who told us we mustn't help kids to get up. Luckily we had a more sensible trainer on our Trainee instructor course the following week who just told us to use common sense / ask first.

After all it is free

Wait a minute... I don't get it... has anyone actually ever put a kid between their legs. Isn't there a great big bar in the way between any sexually related body parts that you guys seem so scared of and a child?
Isn't the norm (as stated above) to straddle a kid between one ski and then have them rest on your leg as you are both dragged up?

I remember why I left teaching in the UK now... this is just stupid. Physical contact is normal... it is not something to be scared of.
CP guidances are there to protect the child (the clue is in the name) they are not there to prevent contact and to suddenly make a normal teaching pratice a sexually related excercise.
There are no 'laws' (apart from the obvious) only guidances.

david@mediacopy,
Dig a case out for me then... one with a prosecution or a resulting sacking, banning etc... etc...

ridiculous ridiculous ridiculous, this panic about EVERYONE being out to get cheap thrills from vaguely touching children is out of control. plonk em on your knee and get on with things.

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flangesax, yes on a t bar or drag lift you'd have them between your legs.

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Introducing Children to Ski Lifts

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